1 10 7 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/3ee4c9af88da9fa80aec53e102fa6ecf.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=KWT%7ECr5Ax0feA%7Ex0Pei1TaUG%7E-bLMaObuoBpL4pLf7k6baSCxxriRaC0LulYl0RNbXlVNIS6L%7EQ3ibT2Wm7gQuaCxzbMnz6Eut-4zZX6rRyjO4JN74s6FKDY68-cBnuXzvNMHoymxv7Uiay%7Esnl6y5yJF06xKdx4Eo1h9LgjzwYFwkmytl8Hit%7Eyww%7EYd68bDGiYLNgBjRWiVKwEf-NEbLuHQvKH4dgmsZEbQgZvWPioayvdaYrtBhJfZv0PujbK8xDwchpPXX6VrsI1kQaB1W2m0a1ValUBtgxXGg6owKaQSD4RyBT%7EpxyVOA5VP1W5O%7EhCDmnJuk7bdJnqRut9WQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e98666e6979aaa1d79475efd3d4bcc1c https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/f73df764ec52e32c06cfcde3181ab0ed.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=o5%7E66Pk%7ENg3tN1nVCFNvV9ivlJCPD%7EKzzR0n-6d6mDn9ysznEJBhwuANf6cAujzSmoFFb8ykXv-ziRBY-%7Eal%7ErcIqWOIXThz9v7r%7Ecz-IOZ9zEUckFgGdT3tgVNodep6woZEzITCyhzWbrVzLubXZH9fOV05u52Q8DfYKpSFA7NAnd9j7GsDEUZO8nY4MRbnq05GZ%7EgLP8jRySRjAG4zDDVnLxsD2P4g9TU%7E%7EQHEknZ5UjPObd02Zi7pb0N8ZSbH7v8jyIPjkPBgshTkjyQNFEHThDpdwSV33ZHP6eDWiLPrhf5ZWnO%7EJItV8MNXkUnLaMpOw4VHy%7Eo9uHlj8Qmx2A__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 40c1e7812fbb7cbd39e595e5ded52233 PDF Text Text Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course HIST465– Spring 2023 Instructor: Dr. Anne S. Rush Interviewer’s name: Maggie Welsh Interviewee’s name: Marta Woodward Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Ethiopia Date of Interview: March 6, 2023 Place of Interview: Silver Spring, Montgomery County, Maryland, U.S.A. Introduction: This interview between Maggie Welsh and Marta Woodward looks at why she came to the United States and her thoughts of the United States when she got here. Marta immigrated to the United States from Ethiopia, but there were other stops on the way. Marta talks about the other places she has lived in between Ethiopia and the United States. She recaps living in Ethiopia, moving to Kenya when she was four years old, going to college in London, and then moving to the United States. She speaks about growing up in the revolution in Ethiopia, getting denied a student visa application, reuniting with family in the United States, passport issues, and race issues in the United States. She also talks about being the minority in the United States after coming from being in the majority. Keywords: Ethiopia, Kenya, United Kingdom, revolution, family, race, minority Welsh: My name is Maggie Welsh and I am interviewing Marta Woodward on March 6th, 2023 in Silver Spring, Maryland. Um, so can you tell me your date of birth and place of birth? Woodward: I was born January 5th, 1972, in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Welsh: Um, can you tell me about the environment you grew up in in Ethiopia? Woodward: Family environment or political environment or— Welsh: Um, family environment. Woodward: Okay, um, I grew up, um, with two educated parents, college educated parents. They were educated in the United States, um, so they were you know fairly well to do I guess you could say and um both my grandparents, both sets of grandparents were fairly well educated too, so education was a big deal in our household, but so was religion. Um, my uhhh grandfather had converted from Orthodox Christianity to Protestant Christianity because of missions that had been active in Ethiopia, so we were also, um, it was, I grew up in a, basically in a Christian household and faith was just a big part of all of our social gatherings and, um, and my both parents’ families, my mom’s family and my dad’s family were very, very close, so family gatherings were always just big intergenerational massive things and um as I recall, it was just a very safe and loving and warm and comfortable early childhood I’d say. Welsh: Got it. Um, and how old were you when you moved, um, to Kenya from Ethiopia? Woodward: I was four. I was about four, I think nearly five years old. Welsh: Um, and do you remember anything about like the moving from Kenya to Ethiopia or from yeah from [laughs] it’s from Ethiopia to Kenya �Woodward: Yeah. Um, I do. Not much, um, I don’t remember for example that my dad had already moved to Kenya a year in advance of us, so I don’t remember his being gone, but I do remember arriving in Kenya and being very happy to see him, um, with my two brothers and my mom. And I remember we didn’t have, you know, in those days when you got on a plane, this was in the ‘70s, um, in those days you still got dressed up, so we were all dressed up really well in our traveling clothes and when we got to Kenya, um, somebody gave us some flip flops to wear, so we could get more casual. So, I just remember getting flip flops, I don’t know why that was significant. [Welsh laughs] Um, I remember lots of pictures being taken. I remember just a lot of joy that my parents were reunited. Um, but I don’t remember much other than that. Um, I guess bits and pieces, and fragments of memories come from the years directly after that, like moving into our first house and just what Nairobi felt like initially, but yeah no I don’t remember the circumstances, you know, I don’t remember the anxiety and the political turmoil that drove us from Ethiopia, but yeah. Welsh: Um, and can you say why your dad went before everyone else? Woodward: That’s a great question. He went because his family, his immediate family, our nuclear family was kind of compromised and a little bit in danger because the government in Ethiopia was hostile towards my uncle, my father’s eldest brother, because this was a regime change in Ethiopia that occurred in 1974. There was a revolution and the emperor was deposed in military coup. And the new regime had it in for all of the peoples, all the people that were high ranking members of any part of the emperor's political apparatus and that included my uncle, who was a police chief. And so he had been imprisoned and had been on trial and my dad had been trying to support him and, you know, help with the law case, the legal case against him and so on. And it became more and more dangerous for my dad because in those days, the new military government was taking in anyone and everyone they suspected of being directly connected with the old regime, but then also peripheral people to that regime. So it wasn’t just the people who were in the government, but people connected to those people, so my dad counted. So, he left and went to Nairobi because, um, before, um, you know a few years before that he had lived in New York and worked for the United Nations there and there was a big United Nations headquarters in Nairobi, in Kenya. So he figured he’d go ahead of my mom to see if he could get a new job in the UN system and establish himself financially and you know um and then send for us when the, when the time was right. Welsh: Got it. Um, and how was life different in Ethiopia versus Kenya? Woodward: Oh, my goodness. Um, [laughs] you know it’s funny when you ask that. What comes to mind are all the photographs because that’s really what I remember. I think I have this sort of vicarious memory from the photographs, so in the pictures of Ethiopia, I see huge family gatherings. I see my great grandparents. I see my grandparents. I see cousins, extended family members, uncles, aunts and through the years my parents have pointed out well that was uncle so and so, that was uncle so and so, oh that was at the annual picnic where we went here, oh that was at the church gathering here. And so I think suddenly our family went from being this huge multigenerational, um, family to being a family of us five and the other members of the community that had fled Ethiopia and Eritrea. So it became very important for us to build other family in Kenya because suddenly we were just, you know, and there was no sign that we would ever go back to Ethiopia because you know they that’s just the way it was, you left Ethiopia, you don’t go back in those days, so, um I again I don’t remember that feeling of being, I don’t associate that time with loss or sadness, I think I was just too young, um, but I do remember �there were, you know, there was just a different way of socializing, it was just much smaller, much more intimate, um. But I do remember that we were, still, you know, most of the socializing we did was still with Ethiopians and still with Eritreans, there’s still sort of built a new family is how I’d describe it. Other than that, we were still, you know, very comfortable, my dad did have a job with the United Nations and we still, you know, went to good schools, and we didn’t, we were very comfortable, so yeah. Welsh: And, um, when you moved to the US, do you think that you still had that, um, strong like family, um, that you had back? Woodward: Oh, that’s, um, very, very interesting. Um, my parents' marriage broke up when I was eight, so probably 3 or 4 years after we moved to Nairobi everything fell apart in my family. So, and then I didn’t see my mother again until I was 23, so she, um, had first moved to Switzerland and then moved to the United States, um, and along with my aunt and so that was the family that I had in the States. Um, when I moved to the States it’s because she had sponsored me for a green card, you know like a legal alien, resident alien designation and so I came I guess to be with family, namely her, um, but it’s certainly no I don’t think it had that same feeling at all. My brothers were here because of college, so that was fun, you know lots of friends were here, but no, no that was I didn’t come to the States and feel like I had a ton of family at all, no. Welsh: Got it. Um and then so you went to University in London, right? Woodward: Correct. Welsh: And when did you realize that you wanted to go to, um, school in London? Woodward: [laughs] I didn’t originally—well I wanted to come to the States for college actually, um, but then I was denied a visa at the US embassy, um, in Nairobi. So, I couldn't come to the States and there are lots of reasons for that, but I long story short, I had no choice, I mean I am lucky enough and privileged enough to say I had to go to England. But, um, in order to get the education, I guess, um, that I, you know, that I thought would fit with my goals, um, and still go to an English speaking country, it was, it was the United Kingdom. So that happened not out of choice, but out of necessity, and that was when I was 19. Welsh: Got it. Um, what University did you go to and what did you get your degree in? Woodward: So, I went to King's College, um, London, which is a college, a member college of the University of London and my, um, undergraduate degree was in biomedical science and then I stayed there for my master’s in biomedical research. Welsh: Um, and did you get a, um, job in London after? Woodward: I didn’t. No, I came back home to Kenya because I figured, you know, that was home and I had my whole life intended to work in the field of international aid and development, so I’d thought I’d work for UNICEF or some other UN agency or non-governmental organization, um, and work, you know, in emergency zones. That’s kind of what my experience had been in my summer between my undergraduate degree and my master’s degree. I did, um, I spent a couple of months working in Rwanda right after the genocide and I thought that was my future. I just thought that’s what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. Um, and it just didn’t work out that way, so but long story short I left England and went back to Kenya thinking that I’d make my life and career there. �Welsh: And then what did you do when you got back to Kenya? Did you work there? Woodward: Yes, I looked for work for a long time and I finally found work with an organization that is, um, affiliated with Johns Hopkins University and it is, it dealt with public health issues and nursing in, particularly nursing in maternal and child health. And so I just was working, you know, on a daily contract with them in Nairobi because they had studies in and around Kenya. And so I was working for them for a little while, um, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t really sustainable long term kind of, you know, it was hourly pay kind of thing and it wasn’t like something that I thought I could do long term. Welsh: Um, and how, how long were you in Kenya when you went back after, um, college and then before you came to the U.S.? Woodward: Ok, so that was probably, I want to say I got back in September, um, I got back maybe in September and then I left again in—that can’t be right. I think I was there for like 6 months, half a year, something like that. Yeah. Welsh: Um, and just one more question on the topic of school. Um, what was—did you notice any, um, differences between your experience of school in London and Kenya? Woodward: Um, so, well you know when I was—I never went to, um, higher education like college and university in Kenya, so I went, I finished high school in Kenya and then I did all my college and postgrad studies in England. So, the primary difference was the, just a matter of levels yeah. Welsh: Ok, um, and was immigrating to the US more of a push or a pull? Woodward: Oh. Um, it was, it was a push. You know it’s funny a lot of immigrants say there’s no avoiding death, taxes, or America. It’s like if you have a connection in America, it seems inevitable that you will wind up there or should die trying somehow. So it’s a bit of both I suppose. Um, you remember that my mom had applied for me to have—to get a green card and that was the reason that I couldn’t go there for college because the counselor like the embassy said you can’t both have a green card application pending and a student visa application. You can’t, those two, you have to wait until you get the green card. So I put the green card application on hold, finished my education, and when I came back to Kenya, I pursued the green card because an Ethiopian passport, as much as I love, you know, my heritage, is the worst passport in the world to travel with. So if there’s any other passport you could have, other than Ethiopian it makes sense, so I felt pulled because you know I wanted to know my mom, get to know my mom and my brothers were here and America, I mean it’s America! But I also felt pushed because the yeah, the immigration application had already been started. I needed very much to not have an Ethiopian passport anymore, so I could travel without being harassed and I have been very harassed and so, um, yeah so a bit of both, I suppose. Welsh: And when you came here after college, it was just your mom and brothers? Was your dad here too? Woodward: No, my dad was not here. My dad was in Eritrea at the time. Welsh: Ok. Um, and how did you come to, um, America? On a plane? Woodward: Yes, yes. Welsh: And was the process like hard or smooth and did you hit any road bumps on the way? �Woodward: No, because then I had legitimate papers in hand, so everywhere I pass through it was clear that I was going to the United States as a legal resident alien, so I had status now. I wasn’t just an Ethiopian tourist; I wasn’t just some random person who could flee into the country and seek asylum. I was actually, I had a status in the States, so no. On that trip no, and that was my first time to the States by the way. I was 25, I think. Welsh: The first time you came— Woodward: To the States— Welsh: After college, was the first time you had ever been? Woodward: Yeah! Welsh: Um. Woodward: I don’t sound like it though, right? [both laugh] ‘Cause I went to American schools my whole life, so I have kind of an American accent. Welsh: As time has passed, how has your experience compared to what you expected? Woodward: Hmm. I don’t know that I had any expectations of the States when I came here, um, I guess I was pretty naive, honestly, specifically about race issues. Having grown up in an environment where it was 100% normal to be black and we were the majority, you know, the majority ethnic group in Ethiopia was of course Ethiopians, Eritrean or whatever and then in Kenya everybody was black, you know, and it was a very diverse and, um, multicultural city Nairobi, but so. And I think you know all the TV shows that we’d ever watched about the States gave us the impression that everything was cool in America, as far as race relations were concerned. It was really the OJ Simpson case that first kind of made me think, what is going on in this country, you know, why would anybody celebrate that verdict? It didn’t make sense to me. Um, it also didn’t—I remember when Marion Barry was, he was the former mayor of DC, he was caught with some kind of drugs in a hotel room with a prostitute and, um, and the black community leapt to his defense, and it just didn’t make sense to me. I just didn’t understand, and I just thought that those were aberrations in race relations and that otherwise black people and white people and everybody else in America just got along great. That was, that was my expectation and I remember, actually it’s funny that you ask because I remember the first night after I landed in DC, my brother and his best friend from Kenya, they were both in DC at the time, um, and me, we went out to the movies to, um, the Uptown on Connecticut Avenue and Independence Day was showing because it had just come out. And afterwards, and it was you know that was just like to me America on steroids, like ok I’m in the States and I’m watching this ridiculous movie, but this is awesome. And then we came out of the theater and my brother tried to hail a cab and nobody would stop for him. And then he told his Irish friend, “hey can you just, can you just stand out, stand out front and you hail it?” And that guy raised his arm and a cab stopped immediately and it was like my first introduction to like what, this is bizarre you know? And I really felt sad for my brother because he had spent, you know, his entire college career there and it just, it just understood that that’s what it was. Um, but it was a little bit eyeopening and then of course now, you know fast forward however many years later it is, maybe 25? See how old was I when I came here? It’s about 26 years now. I mean I, it is, um, very saddening to me to know the—that ideal that I had of America is not actually realistic and that there are serious fractures and that we have a lot of healing to do. So that’s maybe my main, my main growth experience with this country, but otherwise I, I have to say it is the refuge that I �always thought it would be in many ways. Refuge from day-to-day corruption, you know you and I don’t have to face that really. In Kenya, in Africa a lot of places you deal with that every single day, so that part of it has been nice, um, the orderly streets, trash pickup, all the conveniences of modern civilized life have not disappointed. But, yeah, but there are obviously some serious cultural issues we have to work on. Welsh: And so when you first came here, you went to DC and then did you live in DC first? Woodward: I did live in DC at my aunt's place. I’m very close to my aunt. She’s my mother’s younger sister, um, and my mom was living with her at the time, um, as well as my grandmother. They were both taking care of her, so I lived there for ten months, I would say, in Petworth and then I found my own place in Baltimore. Welsh: Gotcha. And, um, how do you think immigration changed you? Woodward: Immigration ok, uh, in the first place it changed me because it freed me, I mean it liberated me. Um, I fundamentally as a person didn’t change, but my circumstances changed because anyone who’s traveled with a passport through wealthier nations, like if you’ve traveled with an Ethiopian or African or undesirable passport through a wealthy nation, I mean it’s, it’s actually dehumanizing, I think. It’s really dehumanizing, um, and having the US passport is like such a, it’s such, um, I don’t know, it’s like a great lubricant of travel, you just sail right through. Um, and I don’t think people—I think people who are Americans and have always been Americans really take that for granted. When you’re trying to travel from country to country, across this world, which really belongs to all of us, and you are treated like, you know, dirt just because of your passport, it’s really humiliating and so that, that changed me, just the, you know, freedom. I still have scars from that, but I feel very free to travel and like any decent human being with the right to travel. Um, it also has filled me with a lot of guilt because I come from a part of the world that’s very, very poor and very, very troubled and so when I—every time I think about the convenience of being a US citizen and having my house and everything that having US citizenship has afforded me, I can’t help like in the same exact thought, I think about the people back home that I know, whether they’re family members or just friends that are, I hate to say the word, but I feel like they’re trapped in an existence that is just very very very difficult and so I feel a lot of guilt about it too. But mostly I just feel tremendous gratitude, I really do. In fact, you can see the tip of the American flag outside my window box there. I always have— even if it’s a little flag, I have a flag where I can see it because it means a lot to me to be an American as an immigrant. Welsh: Um, can you describe your first work experience in the US? Woodward: Yeah, I continued working for the same company that I had been working with, um, in Kenya, um, I just, it transferred me to Baltimore and I worked for Johns Hopkins over there, um, yeah. It was pretty dull work, data entry, you know, data entry and little bit of data analysis for studies that we were doing in maternal and child health. Um, yeah nothing too exciting and then after, um, that contract ended I temped for a while. That might be in your future too, I don’t know, but temping is hard, it makes, it makes a woman or a man out of you that’s for sure. Um, but yeah, so my early years in this country were spent doing kind of like grunt work and yeah. Welsh: And then after, um, when did you decide, ‘cause you went back and got your master’s. Woodward: I got my master’s right after my, um…you mean in teaching? Welsh: Yeah, in education. �Woodward: Oh, ok. Sorry. When did I decide to do that? Welsh: Yeah. Woodward: Oh ok. So I decided— Welsh: Or how long were you in the US before you decided to? Woodward: At that point I had been in the US, that’s a good question. I arrived in ‘95, maybe 15 years. 14, 15 years I had been here. Um, and I decided to become a teacher because I wanted a career that flowed with my kids, um, lives basically, so that’s why I decided to—and also because I had the example of my husband's family. Mark's family were pretty much all teachers and lived overseas and had a fantastic life and I thought that’s gotta be me. Welsh: Um, and so you worked all the way up until you decided that you wanted to go back to get your master’s— Woodward: No. Welsh: --or did you take any breaks? Woodward: I did. I took a ten year, I wouldn’t call it a break. I was a stay-at-home mom. It’s the hardest job I’ve ever had. [Maggie chuckles] Um, but yeah I, once I got married, um, to my high school sweetheart actually, um, I decided to stay home to be with the boys while they were growing up and part of the reason for that is just because I couldn’t afford to work. Honestly, day care was so expensive and the job, any job that I would get wouldn’t, wouldn’t do anything but pay for childcare, like it wouldn’t give us any extra money, so I figured I’ll just stay at home and not have to deal with childcare. So, that was ten years and then when my youngest son went to kindergarten, I went to University of Maryland. Welsh: Um, and what are the biggest differences between your experience of work in the US and, um, Kenya? Woodward: Ok. I only worked briefly in Kenya as a consultant. I didn’t feel like—I think one of the main differences that I can point to is not necessarily the nature of the work, but just the nature of the office. So, in Kenya there’s somebody who always comes around with tea, you know, and they bring you hot tea and, um, there’s just a lot more of a nurturing environment over there. And in the States it’s you show up, you get your work done, you don’t mess around, you know, maybe once in a while you take a lunch break with a friend, but it’s all business, it’s all business. The idea of somebody bringing you tea or coffee and whose job it is to bring you tea or coffee is so funny. Welsh: Um, and so going back to, um, how you met Mark, your husband, um, when did you meet him? Woodward: I met him when we were in high school. Welsh: Okay. Woodward: Um, yeah in Kenya. We were both in high school. Welsh: So, his parents were teachers there? Woodward: Yes. Well, his dad was a pastor, a missionary and his mom was the school librarian. Welsh: And then did you get—were you split up ever? �Woodward: Yes, we split up, um, after we started college. We had every intention of staying together, but it just didn’t work out. The distance was too great. He was at Swarthmore and I was at Kings and I mean there’s like this huge ocean between us and no email. There was no email in those days. There was no FaceTime. There was nothing. There was just the, you know, the Postal Service. It was just too hard and so we split up in our first year of college and we stayed split up for like a good five years before we got back together. Welsh: And then when did you get back together with him when you were in the US already? Woodward: Yes. Yup. Welsh: Ok. Then how long were you in the US before you married him? Woodward: Um, got married in ‘99. I think about 4 years. 3 or 4 years, something like that. Yeah. Welsh: Um, and has, so the religion part, um, do you, so you wanted to keep up with it when you moved to the US? Woodward: Mm-hm. Welsh: And do you think that it was a support system in any way for you? Woodward: My church groups and my small groups have always been a big support system for me, absolutely. Welsh: Um, did you start going to church like right when you came to the US or— Woodward: Yeah, I did. Welsh: And then overall, what is the thing you are most proudest of, proud of and why? Woodward: Oh my goodness. That is a really hard question. You mean as it relates to immigration specifically or just me? Welsh: Or just like you or life after being in the US. Woodward: I think the thing that I’m proudest of and it sounds really silly, is that Mark and I made choices, financial choices, that gave us a lot of freedom in life and that means that when we had the option to earn a ton of money and then you know, have you heard the term golden handcuffs? Like you earn so much money that you just can’t walk away from the job because now you have committed all that money to like the big house, the amazing car, the private schools, the fancy vacations, the circles that you run in. We said no to that, we just said no that, like it was available to us and in some ways some people think of that as the American Dream, like you get more and more and more, but we consciously rejected that to have a life that made sense and I am proud of that. I feel stupid saying that, but I am happy, I’m not proud of it, I’m happy we made that decision. I don’t regret it. Yeah. Welsh: And is there anything else you want to tell me? Woodward: I want to tell you, Maggie, that I want to go to Vail. I want to go to Vail and ski. Yes. I want to tell you as an immigrant, I am so proud that I am a skier actually! I am proud that I am a skier and I always look for other Black people on the slopes and I never really see them because I just feel like solidarity. I would feel a lot you know less like I stuck out. And then I found an organization the other day called the Brotherhood of Black Skiers or something. �There’s like tons of Black skiers out there, so. And it’s open to anyone. So I’d like you to join with me. Welsh: [laughing] Okay. Woodward: Seriously, they welcome anyone. Welsh: Um, thank you. Woodward: You’re welcome. � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/8c8bbce64e27368665292e93efe3ab21.m4a?Expires=1779926400&Signature=syHmK-Xuom%7E2L25%7EkcCqOhh9aYQyHPtxXmxGSGUsYbSs3SWLF%7EVKAj977kTNxVoOdzRQGuovibXPWizarqxAigLQOzaHEOvksH8Sunc-7ecsHpbxFagi5oq-b9xfvjdiE8GKMBwWFrYSe4pOgE7paLMsEyt677VjSisj4wMpH2o7XJ5ZaGOfsRd%7EsdkR1ST6ENEz0yyNozpzZjgKC6ckZuHjQsjxjrq9F9SAX%7EzPgqceQknFPa1ILaJTDaXOt-2qdY2Qc%7E2tZKyGlOyXiVW94C4QUfOzSp8gkRTE11JfyWu0LjN1x-8IaSzy979e4XTdapK5PYh0qXPurNkU-ENuqg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM b34c7db47100cfe548f4a6926709899a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Maggie Welsh Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marta Woodward Location The location of the interview Silver Spring, Montgomery County, MD Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marta Woodward Description An account of the resource This interview between Maggie Welsh and Marta Woodward looks at why she came to the United States and her thoughts of the United States when she got here. Marta immigrated to the United States from Ethiopia, but there were other stops on the way. Marta talks about the other places she has lived in between Ethiopia and the United States. She recaps living in Ethiopia, moving to Kenya when she was four years old, going to college in London, and then moving to the United States. She speaks about growing up in the revolution in Ethiopia, getting denied a student visa application, reuniting with family in the United States, passport issues, and race issues in the United States. She also talks about being the minority in the United States after coming from being in the majority. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maggie Welsh Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 6, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Ethiopia family Kenya race revolution United Kingdom https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/fe839fb8cc494f3c91a53af962fa4fd0.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=pD%7E02x5tuWbNFE60rR3IPOIt3Pm%7EFJHqp3CnaDyW3yOJlwyXUjy-3NncVWs%7EO4qNX3v7Eql-XOAOX2rS6Wx3IqIH4zWPx96X8XC6Q0Fwh46%7EkPebx6vnFPfo%7E%7ElyIUuVdX%7EjIMZIVv53Zg4fO224b11npvIMQQBG4cdXXJBhaRfSLvbnDaXF0mzWpWa3QXD9UCF-A3QHCooO%7EdUlBmdnfQpr9RHxtUjh5fKlcAgVRSf2XpodM9E8RUwggGy8kdVJopb2b04UweW3DdST-XVF8Yh4jSsuUoBVBYLn1GXLQteZAvpVxc4v0dykSdCTrEHvpMTAEmheEeT1d3Gg34xXdQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Neil V. Vu Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bob (Pseudonym) Location The location of the interview College Park, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob (Pseudonym) Description An account of the resource This interview transcript between Neil Vu and Bob [pseudonym] shares his immigrant story from his former country to U.S. migration. His immigrant experience portrayed his life that represented his educational background as well his remembrance of obtaining student visa to living that he had never encountered before. A former teaching assistant at his graduate school in Kansas City, his involvement in higher education had something he wanted to teach about one day at a top-ranked business school in the DMV area which he would never forget working with students in the classroom that he loved in his career. His passion for teaching at a business-related field had something that he admired to do, in which he wanted to focus on his academic track. His interview therefore showed how it is to be living in the U.S. with an educational background that can change others in the academic community. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Neil V. Vu Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 16th, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History India school teacher https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/2ddb508b99677e148f72481466097897.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=jHW3wEN%7EDVq34ixA--gHoJ2LLW7Hh4T15P0%7E4T8744oOpnQ-Y5mzUT5chA7vRd3UeWon43a1AZG1YFtVLRCQsQniUw2RmdtBy6p5o8Wof0Hd0VsL72bD86DM0fdzqz8QG5C8q1fg2faLALUtgdxjBokmdgiRjp6eJe2RE4IaoAeKW5dlFS5NDzoaAx0c8G3J2gj486Buz9BRh67n6mVmIxaEqkjlncBIjzdWqLaRTZKiwOeDrQsWFbF9xECqnOETlhqOGkPha-GrVxmx5hpRJkxtyicSwlVtqoQGdUApU5TM98b1Jm2be7BZpHJInttCJmVY6nWSx8Z10wAA95Tjpg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Avani R. Katre Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ratnakar Katre Location The location of the interview Clarksburg, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ratnakar Katre Description An account of the resource This interview between Avani Katre and her father, Ratnakar Katre, delves into his childhood, overcoming the struggles of poverty, and finding his way to America to build a life for him and his family. He explains the difficulties of attaining his education and of finding a job in his chosen career field as well as the unique challenges of chasing ambition from rural India. The interview also explores the experiences of an immigrant coming on a work visa and becoming a naturalized citizen, hinting at the exploitation by companies of these immigrants. Throughout the interview Ratnakar focuses on his work ethic, his ambition, and gratefulness even in the face of all his struggles in both India and the U.S. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Avani R. Katre Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 12, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History education H1B India jobs Poverty https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/ed547cc628089cd280174e5a95147785.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=EuBdXEQ2Rmc23FNFnxNYpbsZYn0azJABXy935rMyDWWonO3IhVVg5msiMn8pJk28KrEoROwH0VpwkPc34iE6P-vhHEPNfQ5h6ORfTFrA8lWji5HoW30VnN3HBZidlqdh8J7EKCiBif0Zr9S13vafwp8eWDCcD4xix-E-c3PVNjzZPR83%7Egxqt%7EUFZ8k%7EteRrX8mdHgw6XK1rnlQ4DAjWCdFVh%7E-G3s8l4PyvZ95O9xxUttpWxJgLn1Neiyr-p8Sf1GfmLSrgSvlqG-D%7EY59jP392lCCzvlMB6OC8VP4GX5VyhOZlYdiL1tRGaurp5y%7E74Cnx0PCsVCON4HbN5FHQCw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 258439a14c1aff39f8b738545207d02b https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/7236748152e2db632c68bcfe5bb33cf7.m4a?Expires=1779926400&Signature=ujTS5wr8ttMCAVSsNz7W5ABsEh%7EOg5MmjGqhfsOtZaruMvqobyEJ0ggPmw91qW1hpaNt-qoTkCYOj2MowoOsua4q9wKtEAjR28MmKzQQH2fXazbb2TO6afBnIa2KUDqo2qqPAkZcGHrzbPqDbY7G5L6Dy72d2V%7EqvXE0nVEb7WDPc-RkGlWgidgavWD-Zi4-3facomogoJoJMYhwYYcaBTt8FMjZcpPgNF6Pis7VvTuENe1b8VQcKP13uwNSFZOB2jHYGohpvvKpeMNMDuNPjrNlMgzUBbwZNH4W3dVzwkx6%7EUNYIPrCh1bixTwcNWseriqsBNGZv5uNENZI160vpw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 9b9ef0bc82a7c08d39f807314049ec52 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/4b30b599216bc02ca3d1fd666baa6701.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=vposskK80lAFIZGN-j2jAlrzDgViTWuHh%7EkIvIxtaZ8RaRzGPC6bY9wpSb%7EMnXWKOZglS2SYcZHdOnUYhVv9DHtWqRnlPCkKehMxmKJMXuxgyGmC4wWAeRJu3JALrHch%7EXVQIE1f7ZY5xVciidvPCUFQIJykhpExSuHNko4kGnMNYHFEZAKCStP26cqrUOJwdJFbKlsHl%7EbsOBW9BUycQUskr5ChWUrLInlk40tV9Xz3iPbUDhHEagFCXji8H3znAbtBm-mZrS59bT4xsIjM4b%7EAw1iS85gKm6TFNSePQeJd-3vE7n7dYXFxk66ZscOrRKt5XQ9xMR41qyi8u8Oj6Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM c357ff9ff08eaa39dd9231c329bee052 PDF Text Text 1 Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course: HIST465 – Spring 2023 Instructor: Dr. Anne S. Rush Interviewer’s Name: Aidan Lambiotte Interviewee’s Name: Mary Tsiolas Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Canada Interviewee’s Current of Residence: Takoma Park, Maryland, Montgomery County, USA Date of Interview: March 6th, 2023 Place of Interview: Takoma Park, Maryland, Montgomery County, USA Type of Interview: In Person Introduction: This interview is between Aidan Lambiotte and his aunt, Mary Tsiolis, a Greek Canadian immigrant to the United States. As the daughter of Greek immigrants to Quebec, Mary depicts her early childhood, and experiences growing up in both Greece and Monrtréal during the 1960s - 1970s. She draws stark contrasts between her experiences in Canada and her initial time as an immigrant in America, touching heavily on the themes of isolation, microaggression, and white suburban hegemony in the United States. She ultimately uses her experiences to illustrate the manner in which she found community in the DC area, entirely outside of Greek or Canadian culture, as well as her love-hate relationship with American identity. Keywords: Partie Quebecois, isolation, community, Suburbs, healthcare, music, politics Aidan: Okay, um, this is Aidan Lambiotte here with Mary Tsiolas, In Takoma Park, Maryland, at 3:22PM on, it is, today is March 6th, Monday March 6th, 2023. Um so to start, can you tell me your, your name, your age, your place of birth, and your date of birth? Mary: Okay, um, my name is Mary Tsiolas, uh, I was born in Montreal Canada, March 27th, 1959, so I will be 64 [on] March 27th, 2023. Um… Aidan: Good? Mary: That's about it! Aidan: Okay good, um, and, so, so to start we kind of just want to get a good sense of what your childhood was like, what your early life was like, so if you could, um, can you tell me about the environment you grew up in? Mary: I grew up in a Greek, I grew up with a Greek family, where my parents are from Greece, they migrated to Canada when they were teenagers, in 1957, and then when I was three years old, and my �2 sister was one year old, we went to live with my grandparents in Greece, so we could learn the language, and spend time with them. Then, we moved back to Canada, when I was nine or ten years old, probably nine, nine and a half. And uh, [we] lived in Canada until 1980, and then we moved to the US in 1980. Aidan: Okay, and so, so to backtrack a little bit, can you tell me about, uh, like what a normal day was like when you were in Greece when you were young, as much as you can remember? Mary: Uh we lived in the country, it was beautiful, we had a lot of friends because there was a really, um, a very tight knit neighborhood, and everyone played with each other, it was very carefree, it was very trusting, nobody locked doors, and it was beautiful. Aidan: Good, and what was your daily routine like? Did you go to school there? Mary: Yes, I went to elem-- kindergarten and elementary school there, uh, it was Greek school all day, except we had once a week an English cla-- English class, and it was the basics, and, um, so I can read and write Greek. And then when we moved to Canada, I went to a special English class, to pick up on my English, and then within six months I was placed in my grade, my English grade, in the Canadian school. Aidan: I see, and what was the name of the place in Greece where you were? Mary: The town? The name is Levidi, and it's a very small town in the province, the state is Arcadia in the Peloponnese. Aidan: Okay, very good. Um, yeah, so, so what, you said that you, you were in elementary school in Greece, um, when you came back to Canada after a few years in Greece, what were some differences that you noticed, or were there any differences that you noticed between the educational systems of, like, your Greek school versus you Canadian school, or-Mary: Oh, it was like day and night. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Uh Greek school, uh, we were in the country so it was structured with a very long lunch break, where everyone went home for lunch and then we all went back to school in the afternoon, um, it was, um, it was very hard, it was, um we did a lot of uh, there was a lot of classes, a lot of classes that I didn't have in Canada like calligraphy classes at a very young age, and, um, and like really, outdoor gym, that was really kind of rough for us being young, and, um, Canada was much more indoors, nobody went home for lunch. Oh no we did go home for lunch, yes we did, we lived close, and so we did go home for lunch, the school, uh, had a break for a couple of hours and then we went back in the afternoon. Um, it was very structured, um, it was tough in the beginning, because, um, it was hard for me as a young child because I had to learn English very fast, because I wanted to have friends and I wanted to be able to communicate. Aidan: Mm-hm. �3 Mary: So, television helped a lot. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: A Lot of TV, and a lot of special classes, and I was very young, so we picked it up very fast, my sister and I. Aidan: Yeah, were there any, um, were you mostly--so, in French Canada, were you watching French TV? Mary: It was in English Canada then. Aidan: Really? Mary: Yes, because Partie Quebecois didn't take over until much later, so I was there in the 70s. Aidan: Oh so it was predominantly English? Mary: English, yes. Aidan: Ah okay, I didn't know that. Mary: Quebec, Quebec was predominantly English, yes, absolutely, yes. Aidan: Ah I didn't know that, okay. Mary: Yeah so, when we left in like, late 70s, in 79, 1979 to 1980 when we moved here, it was starting to change. Aidan: Starting to change. I see. Mary: Yes, to where all the English public schools were closing, and there were primarily French, and, you know, all that changed then. Aidan: I see, okay. Mary: So, there was a huge migration out of Can--out of Montreal then, a lot of the English, uh, speaking folks, and a lot of the Europeans that wanted to maintain their kid’s education in English, they left to go to English speaking parts of Canada, which pretty much Toronto, like, got flooded overnight basically. Aidan: Interesting. Mary: Yeah. �4 Aidan: Okay, um, so, kind of going back to education, a little bit, so once you came back to Greece, and because you had a fairly long amount of time in the educational system of Canada. Mary: Right. Aidan: Um, I guess, like, what was that like especially as you started to grow, and started to um, when you, when you get to, you know, when you reach adolescence and wanted to, um, you know-Mary: It was very different in Canada, because at the time all the schools were cut in half, half the school was all French, and the other half of the school was all English. And so, we basically-- and the English, um, English side, we had to take French, and if we didn't pass our French class we would flunk, and it was the same thing for the French side, the kids, they had to take English, and it was a primary subject, so if they failed it they would fail their class. So, that was a little, that was weird because people didn't really hang out together, the English side of the cafeteria, I mean there was an English side of the cafeteria speaking kids, the Anglophones, and the Francophones were on the other side, and a lot of them did not really connect, and so it was really a little bit rough when you're younger, because, coming from an ethnic family, you know, we had Greek school, we had English school, we had Greek school on the weekend and French school. So, it was a lot of work. Aidan: A lot of education. Mary: A lot, a lot, it was like a lot pushed at us, but it was, it was a good thing. Aidan: Okay, so-Mary: But hard at the time. Aidan: So, your, so your daily routine consisted of a lot of, a lot of schooling. Mary: Yes, I had never seen a, um, an open book test, until I moved to the US. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And that was shocking. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: Because when I moved to the US, I had finished high school in Canada, but I needed to get the equivalent to the American high school, uh, diploma. I needed to take American history, and US government. So, at the time they, they, they only would let us take, not two courses, but four courses, so I ended up taking English, American government, US history, and I think it was art or something. Aidan: Okay, okay. �5 Mary: Yeah. Aidan: Um, so, kind of, sort of, just to get a better sense of what Montreal was like for you. Mary: Mm-hm Aidan: Um, is there a large immigrant community in Montreal? That you? Mary: Yes. Aidan: Okay. Mary: Yes, very much so. It's very international. Aidan: Right. Mary: We lived in the Italian part of town, um, there was like, there's like different ethnic neighborhood, it's very multicultural, multi-ethnic, always has been and it still is, but primarily now because its Quebec, there, the primary language there is first, French. So, if you don't know fluent French and fluent English, you cannot get a job. Aidan: Mm-hm, right, and, um, is, is there a sizable Greek community there too? Mary: Yes, there is a huge old Greek community there, with churches, with schools, very big, very, very big. Aidan: Okay, so you grew up in an environment where you did not feel-Mary: I didn't feel as a stranger, out of place. Yes, because when I first moved here, because I don't have straight blonde hair, I was like, always asked where am I from. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: To where in Canada, in Montreal, nobody asked you that. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: You know? Everyone was like, from somewhere, and um it was basically “how good is your French?” [laughs] Aidan: Right. Right, so, um, so yeah, wha wha, so what was, was there anything you noticed, like did you feel, in terms of your sense of feeling at home and feeling the sense of community, how, or were there any differences in how you felt about being in Greece versus the Greek community in Montreal? �6 Mary: Well that was when I was really young, there was a huge, the differences that I noticed the most was the differences between the Canadian, the Montreal Canadian communities to moving here, to Washington. My parents bought a house in Virgina, Vienna, Virginia, the subway then, it was 1980, it only went to Rosslyn, it was very isolating out in the suburbs, it was primarily white, um, it, we really felt like aliens. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: That was really, a lot harder than moving from Greece from a young age to Montreal, the hard part was that we moved from the country, that literally everything was open, there was like, uh, very, you know, very small buildings, it wasn't, you know, and then all of the sudden we moved to Montreal and here's this giant city, and there is giant buildings and skyscrapers and tons of traffic, so that was really shocking. Aidan: Right. Mary: That part, you know, to get, to get used to. Aidan: Yeah, okay, so now we’ll transition a little bit to um, I guess like the crux of this interview, um, how did you get to America? And that's kind of a broad question. You can interpret this a couple ways I guess. Mary: Mm-hm. Aidan: But in a broad sense, how did you get to America? Mary: Okay, um, at the time, because we were in high school my parents, there was three of, I had three siblings, my parents, and my three sibling--my two other siblings, so three kids, and I’m the oldest, and, um, my dad had gotten really tired, even though he loved Montreal, he had gotten tired of the cold winters, and it was hard on his body, and he started hating it. So, he decided to do a little tour in the US to visit friends and family, and he fell, he ended up coming, driving through Virginia in the spring, and everything had bloomed, and Washington was very beautiful with all the cherry blossoms, and he fell madly in love with the area. So he decided that this is where he wanted to move us all to. And so at the time he hired a lawyer, and um, they uh the lawyer got us green cards, uh, you know, resident alien cards, and we all moved here, that's how we moved, through my dad. So my dad was here for a couple of years, and he got all the paperwork done, and then he brought us, he brought the entire family here. Aidan: I see, so was that when you were, so you finished high school in Canada? Mary: Yes. And then I did three, uh, the four classes here to grad, to get also--I went to high school at Madison High in Virginia, uh, for the last year, for another year when we first moved here so I could get the equivalency to the diploma, to the high school diploma. �7 Aidan: Okay, I see, and then, um, after that, what did you do? When you were, when you were sort of, uh, when, I guess like when you-Mary: After high school? Aidan: After high school, and-Mary: After high school I took some classes at George Mason. I really didn't like being out in the suburbs, so I dropped the classes, and I wanted to move to DC, to Washington, to the city. And I decided that I really wanted to check out and see what it's like becoming a stylist, a hair stylist, so I apprenticed in a salon, and ended up really liking it and I stayed there, and I finished my apprenticeship, I did my exams, and I became a stylist. I got my license as a hairdresser, I loved it, and I moved into Washington. Aidan: Ah I see, ok so that was your first work experience here [in the United States]. Mary: Yes. Aidan: Okay, good, um, yeah, so one of the questions is what motivated or caused your move to the US, but I guess that we already covered that. Mary: Yes, it was my parents. Aidan: Yeah, okay. Mary: Yeah, it was the family. Aidan: But, um, I am curious about what you thought about it at the time, were you happy in Montreal? Or were you excited to move? Mary: I was very happy in Montreal, and it was a very horrible time moving here. Aidan: Okay. Mary: We had a very hard time adjusting, um, it was very alienating, it was very, very white, and even though we’re white Mediterraneans, we did not feel part of this, you know, American, white neighborhood that we moved into. Aidan: Right. Mary: Um, it was uh, we lived in the city so everybody used public transportation, we grew up with the public transportation in Montreal, which is fantastic, and then when we moved to the burbs unless you could drive, or someone was driving you somewhere, you were completely cut off. Aidan: Right. �8 Mary: And at that time, like I said, there was no Metro, there was no easy access to anything, so it was very alienating and very difficult. Aidan: Right, I see, so, so you were not so happy here when you first started? Mary: No. Aidan: Okay. Mary: No, I hated it. Aidan: Okay, yeah, um, I, I do have one interesting question: how did you meet your first friend in America? Mary: Oh my gosh. Uh-Aidan: If you can even remember, but-Mary: I can't even remember the first. So, I met a lot of, uh, people when I took the classes, um, you know, for the, to get my diploma, because there was, we were all seniors, so I met one of the first people that I remember, I met someone that their parents, their dad worked for the CIA that was never around, so that was a wild story. And she was great, and it was true, here dad was never around, and we became friends. And I met, I met quite a few folks in, I started meeting people in the high school, and people that were more from different places, people that had traveled a lot, or, you know, were not the cheerleaders and the jocks. But it was more like, and that was something else that was shocking to me was, like, having this world, like, all separate, where the school was like, it was like what they used to call it which I thought was really weird was like the jocks the cheerleaders and then the freaks. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And so that was really wild. Because we never had that in Canada, our school didn't involve, either you were in sports or you were not, but it was not a big deal. It wasn't like a big, the Canad-- the American, the American upbringing to the high school was just kind of, it was just kind of very different. It was stuff that we saw on television. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, yeah, it was weird. Aidan: Right, right, okay, so, so it sounds like over time, at first at least it was difficult to find some sort of sense of community, did you ever really, I mean not necessarily in comparison to Greece or Montreal, which have large established communities. �9 Mary: Mm-hm. Aidan: But I guess a place like DC, which, um, which, um, according to the research that I did does not have a very large Greek population, [Greek] immigrant population. Mary: No. Aidan: Um, did you ever find any sort of community, or is it never really-Mary: Yes, I did, actually, I found a great community, uh, in music, um, I found a lot of friends, and it was um, very, very embracing, was the arts, the arts community, the musicians, the poets, um, the college students that were, um, politically motivated were the people that I was interested in, those kind of, those kind of folks. And there was a huge group back then, it wasn't, Washington isn't like it was now. It was pretty much offices, and then, either you worked in an office or you didn't, or you went to school, and then by like 5 o'clock in the afternoon they would roll up, literally, the sidewalks because the offices would close and it would be a dead town. There was nobody there. So, um, we didn't have, there was a lot of crime in Washington then, and it was also, um, a lot cheaper to live in DC than it is now, so there was a very, there was a lot of young people that lived in Washington, and I made a lot of friends, and roommates, through, you know, group houses and apartments and sort of-- And then it was also very cheap for the artsy communities, like um, the people that were in bands, and the people that were poets, and the people, uh, that wanted to show their art, there was a lot of really bad neighborhoods in Washington, with, with like, really not great buildings, so it was easy for all of us to see shows, and see events at places like that, it wasn't hard for people to play, like it is now. Like right now if you're not popular, or famous, uh, you can't get anything, a gig in a club. Aidan: Yeah, yeah. Mary: It's very limited, to where then, it was very open, and there was a lot of people that came from other places and other colleges, and other cities, like a lot of people would come down from Philadelphia, people would come from North Carolina, and there was a lot of stuff going on in Washington and it was a very embracing community. Aidan: Right, right. Mary: So, that's where I ended up getting very connected, and that's how I ended up staying here for a very long time. Aidan: Mm-hm, right. Mary: And I met my husband here, so we ended up making our home here. Aidan: Right. Mary: And, you know, family and that sort. �10 Aidan: So, I know that, um, I know that there is a large Greek orthodox community in general, like it, I think, um-Mary: Yes, there is. Aidan: Like many communities, especially diasporic communities, kind of connect a lot of the time through religion. Mary: Yes, they do. Aidan: This is, this is one of the questions my class was concerned with, is, um, um, sorry if it's a little bit abrupt-Mary: That's okay. Aidan: But just while we were on the topic of finding community, or finding fellow Greek immigrants, um, have you ever been involved with religion? Or has that ever played a part in your life, cause, because I know it can be very important in at least-Mary: Yes, in the Greek community, yes, yes, we’re, uh, most of the Greeks are Greek orthodox, they are very serious about their religion, they, uh, a lot of them connect through the church, uh, and the church of course, you know, you have to become a member, and that sort of thing. That was more my parents, uh, I would go to church periodically. The biggest holiday is Easter, it's bigger than Christmas, and so, the only time that I would really go to church was when my mom wanted me to go with her for the resurrection, uh, service, in, on Easter. And, uh, when I was little in Greece, we had a little village church of course and we went there on Sundays with our grandparents, but it was different, they were the ones that were very connected, I'm not very religious con-- very religiously connected so I’ve never, um, belonged to the church. Aidan: Mm-hm, okay, okay good, get that out of the way. Mary: Yes, but you have to be a member. Aidan: Right. Mary: It's like, you, I mean you can go to church on a Sunday, but to be involved in all their activities and all sort of, of that sort of thing is like you have to be a member of the church. Aidan: Okay, I see, I see. Um, so kind of back to just, like, the topic of like, kind of, as you, when you got here, were there any things you did that helped you sort of, um, grow your community? Grow like sort of grow into being in America, and did that affect the identity that you held important before, or like did that sort of, um, influence your beliefs, or values, or what you thought about yourself? �11 Mary: I feel, I feel like there was a big part of me that grew up here. So, I feel like a third, like, I'm a third Greek, I'm a third, um, part, you know, Canadian, and the other part is American. They had all, all those countries had a lot of influence in my life, and by the way I am today. Um, I, I didn’t, I was looking more, I didn't, wasn't really looking for Greek communities when I moved here. I was looking more for real people. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And more, not so, I don't know, broken up, you know, in groups, in like, you know, the Virginia, the whites and this and whatever. So no, I didn't really look for a Greek community. I knew that the Greek community here was many generations. A lot of them were not like the Greek community that was in Canada where they, where the families had just migrated, you know, they were the first generation, their parents, and the children was the second. So, here, most of the Greeks that I did meet, they didn't speak the language, they were very far removed from Greece, I mean, they would go there for holidays but that was pretty much it, so, it wasn't the same, but I have a big, huge family, so that part kept me much more connected. Aidan: Mm-hm, Okay right. Mary: Than the church would. Aidan: Than the church per-se? Okay. Mary: Yes. Aidan: I see. And um, could you just tell me about some of the things that you did, um, when you were, I guess like younger in DC, when you, when you moved there, um, what were you up to, besides, were you doing anything besides being a stylist? Or was it stylist full time? Mary: I was working as a stylist full time because I was, uh, living on my own, and I was supporting myself. And, I got, I was very politically, I got very politically involved, and I still am, um, women’s rights. Pro-choice, pro-vote, pro freedom, pro-everything. Uh, I've always been a Democrat, a die-hard Democrat. Um, for me a lot of my connections with people have been political connections, much more than religious, or you know, or you know, background, or you know, coming from the same country. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: I started by getting really involved in, also in music, I really loved, I met my husband then. And then I met a bunch of friends, everybody was young, everybody was going to American University, there was a huge, uh, a huge music scene there, everybody was doing punk stuff, and fun stuff, and there was a lot of music coming in from California, from England, um, there was a lot of poetry, there was a lot of, there was a lot going on, so I got super involved with all that. Aidan: Mm-hm, right, okay, so-- �12 Mary: And I also loved to travel, so, I got very involved in, like, traveling, like as much as I could. Aidan: So through these, through these, um, sort of like, very politically active communities, did you sort of, I don't know, I guess, I guess, okay, let me preface this by asking the question: what was your opinion of America before you immigrated? What were, what were, what did you know about it, and how did you feel about it? Did you, did you, believe that it was a land of opportunity? Or did you believe that it was just the neighbor of Canada? Or did, you know, did you have any opinions on it? Mary: I, my opinion was, uh, because I hadn't been here before, only a visit to see family for, for a wedding when I was young, in New York, um, my, my thoughts about America was mostly what television showed us, certain TV shows, and how things are here, and sort of like, you know, television played a lot, movies played a lot, so, you know, sort of like, Happy Days, and uh, stuff like that, um, when I, um, I was not excited to move here because I loved living in Canada, and I was leaving behind my life and my friends, and that was devastating, um. I didn't really, I didn't like American when I first moved here. The violence really scared me. Um, the health care was terrifying, because the funny thing was when we first moved here, you know, we have social medicine in Canada, so when we first moved here, I remember, it was my brother, I think, got bronchitis in the winter, and my mom took him to the clinic, and when she walked out of the clinic they gave her a bill for like 400 dollars which totally freaked her out, because um you realize right there and then, that it's completely different. That when you’re sick you just can't go into the clinic and get medicine, you have to have money, and you have to have, uh, insurance. And that was like, really a hard awakening to see how expensive and how difficult health care is in America. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, I fell in love with America very slowly. And I still think if I had not lived here for as long as I have, and have family and friends that are American, that I probably would not like this country very much. It’s very racist, and the racism is deep, and scary, and it's always, I've always seen it since I moved here in 1980 to today. Um, it's, um, it’s not fair in so many ways. And it’s, uh, and right now the way it's changed, it's frightening, it's frightening. So, it's a place that I love, but I'm really scared of it at the same time. Aidan: I see. So, so you are, um, so, your opinion of America, I guess, like, you were never surprised by- because I think there's a common experience of people thinking America is this very free, very liberated place, and then coming to America and kind of, like you said, suffering this like rude awakening. So, are you, are you sort of saying that even before you came to America, you kind of, there was, there was no enchantment that was undone when you got here. Mary: No. Aidan: Okay, I see. Mary: No. �13 Aidan: Yeah. Mary: It was, what was frightening moving here was, how, well, also of course where we moved to, you know, Vienna, Virginia. How, how scary and, and white it was. And how, and how, there was a funny story we got when we first moved in, we got the lady, the neighbor, showed up with a basket full of fruit and cookies, it was a welcome, a neighborhood welcome wagon, and my mother invited her in, and, you know, she offered her Greek cookies, because were Greek, and she also offered her Greek coffee. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And, so, the neighbor had never had Greek coffee which is very, which is ground very fine, and it’s, um, it’s quite strong, it's got a lot of caffeine, so the, the woman said that she would love to have some, and my mother made her some coffee and she stayed and we chatted for a little bit, and then the next day she came back knocking on our door, wanting to see the package that the coffee came in because she couldn't sleep at all the night before, and she was, um, she was a little upset, and kind of, like, made us feel that we, you know, my mom felt terrible, because she was like, you know, this is just coffee, was trying to explain to her that it had a lot of caffeine, that's probably why she couldn't sleep. But it just made us, did not make us feel very welcome, her attitude. So, it was, it was difficult, it was a difficult time for us because, um, family would come and visit us, and at the time, all my uncles at the time, drove black Cadillacs, and when they showed up, uh, people were like kind of afraid, they thought like “what is up with you guys,” you know, “where are you from?” And it was strange, you know, so it was like, it was just kind of, like, it felt like if you didn't fit in, you just weren't part of that, that area, you know, if you didn't have a at that time, you know, the kids all in school had, the guys had pickup trucks, and the people, the girls had little cars, and if you didn't have a car, you know, you just didn't, it was, it was a very different time, very different time. I was never, I had never gone to a party that was in a big open farm field, where they had watermelon, you know, stuffed with moonshine, which I didn't know, and I got deathly ill. So, there was a lot of different things that I was trying to sort of see if I can fit in or acclimate with all of it, and it kind of was like, it was strange, looking at it back now, it was a little, it was strange, it was strange. Aidan: Yeah, so, speaking more about these feelings of sort of alienation, um, did you feel that it, it got better once you moved to DC? Mary: Absolutely. It was like day and night. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: I’ve met so many cool folks, and, um, it was, that's why I fell in love with this area. I met a lot of folks that felt like me, I met a lot of folks that were really interesting, and uh it wasn't like this tiny little world that was out in the suburbs. And, uh, we felt like, you know, we were, we, we marched for the, all the pro-choice marches, we, we marched for a lot, and we were very united, and people would come from all over the states and stay at our group houses, and we'd make flyers because at the time technology was very different, it wasn't really happening. So there was a very big connection, and, and opened my vision �14 to the Americ-- to the Americas, not just this particular little area where it’s like, Virginia and DC. Like, there's all the Americans that are from like, all over. Aidan: Right. Mary: And then I started traveling, you know, and [the] West Coast was gorgeous that I fell in love with, and I was gonna move out there, but at the time it was really, it was hard, so we didn’t have a lot of friends there. I fell madly in love with the West Coa-- I mean, so I'm a big city person, but I also like the country, but I saw America much more. [The interview was conducted in Mary’s kitchen, and her dog, Archer, was laying on the ground right next to us for most of the interview. Her husband, Ben, my uncle, is also on the computer in the other room, and can be heard once or twice] Mary: Sorry about my whiney doggy [in response to dog making noise]. Aidan: He's okay. Okay, so, um, yeah, one more, so, so I guess to some extent would you say that it was not that you found people who were similar; you didn't find a community of people who had similar backgrounds to you, but you found a community in people where that background was not so important. [More dog noises] Mary: Exactly. And they all had different backgrounds, so it was interesting, it was very interesting to get to know each other, but yes, absolutely. Aidan: And have you, um, so, being of an immigrant community yourself, have you, do you think the fact that you immigrated here has created any unique interactions with the pre-existing immigrant communities in DC? Mary: I don't know about that. I don't know, I have not, I don't know. I, I have found that the stories that I've heard of people immigrating to the US, a lot of them have been really, really tough. And mine was a lot lighter than most, because of my parents. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: I was really lucky that my dad came here, he hired, you know, he hired a lawyer, we got our cards. It wasn't like hardship like a lot of people have had, where they haven't seen their families for a long time, um, you know, it was, it was expensive to get all that done and at the time my dad was working, he was much younger, and it worked out really well for us. So that was a big plus. So, I’ve heard more, I’ve heard stories of people having it a lot worse than me. I mean, I basically didn't like moving here and I had to acclimate, but then the paperwork, I didn't have to suffer like others have. Aidan: Right. Mary: You know, I was lucky with my dad. �15 Aidan: Right. Um, so, what do you think it means to really be American? Like what does, what does that mean to you, I guess? Mary: Well, I'm about to put in my paperwork to get my, uh, after much thought, to put in my paperwork to become an American citizen. So for me, I want to be able to vote, that's the most important thing on the planet, and that's the part that really has always bummed me out for not being an American citizen, because I’m very vocal about how I feel, about the politics, and about who I support, and, uh, what I support. And so I feel because I've spent so much time here and it's become my home, it's time for me to become an American citizen. So, maybe I can make my voice with my vote heard a little bit more, you know. I'm also getting older, and I have no plans to move back to Canada, I pretty much have made my, my, uh, life here, so I am gonna become an American citizen. Aidan: I see. And do you, do you think that that is, how do you think you would have reacted to that information 20 years ago? Mary: I would have been “no way,” you know? I'm kinda shocked at this new older me. But at the same time, I have no regrets, and I'm always gonna be a Canadian citizen because I was born there. But also because I've worked all my life here; this is where I've paid all my taxes, this is where I have my house, and my life, and my family is around. So, I think it's time for me to do it, and not, and not be afraid of doing it, or, you know, I'm not gonna change my mind. [Mary gets up at this point to heat up food for her dog, and the microwave can be heard very slightly in the background] Aidan: Okay. Mary: Hold on one second. [She is feeding her dog] Aidan: No problem, take your time. Mary: So yes. Aidan: Yeah, so, I guess kind of circling back to the, um, the sense of Greekness in your life, um, has that, do you think that you have like-- Well, are there things that you did, that you were able to do in Canada relating to your Greek heritage that you are not able to do here? Or are there things you're able to do here that you were not able to do in Canada? In terms of just like, expression of culture, or interacting with your culture. Mary: Yes. Well, Canada has a huge community there, so, you know, for instance going to the mar-Greek markets or the Greek cafés, and, uh, they also have their own music sta-- they have their own radio stations, and TV stations. So there's none of that here. And New York has more a lot of it, but here, no. So, I do miss that, I miss the cuisine, the food is fantastic. �16 Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Much better than here, um, much better than here. So, I miss that. [Pouring dog food] But, um, I do miss, I do miss with Greece, I miss the, I miss the country itself very much because it’s so beautiful there, and I miss my, my relatives are getting very old, and so it's tough. I need to go back and visit them because time is going by very quickly. Aidan: Right, um, do you think that, do you think that your sense of culture has changed at all since being in America? Your sense of like, what culture you identify most strongly with? Mary: Well, you know, it's really kind of funny because we grew up all our lives calling ourselves Greek-Canadians, so even though I'm not a Greek citizen, I’ve always identified by being Greek first, because of my heritage. And then Canadian because of where I was born. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, I always have felt that I’m always Greek first. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Because um I guess with my language and my coming, being raised with my grandparents when I was little, I definitely, I have a connection to there when I was a little girl. Aidan: Right. So, so, um, you grew up speaking, just to clarify, you grew up, Greek was your first language, right? Mary: Yes. Aidan: Okay. Okay, right, right, right. Mary: And then it was Greek and English. Aidan: Greek and English, right. Okay. Mary: And then we had to take French, but French I just sort of gave up on it. Aidan: Yeah? Mary: Because it was just more like I was angry about everything we had to do, and then when Montreal was sort of breaking up, it was just forced so much on us, and there was just, it just made me react in a negative way, not really embracing it, which was really dumb. Aidan: Interesting, well do you think that, um, in a similar way to the way the French language was kind of forced on the English-speaking citizens of Qu—Quebec-- �17 Mary: Absolutely! Aidan: Is that simil-- but is that similar, is that similar at all to the way you think, like, to the way, I guess like, like you said the alienation, like the pressure to conform to like the jocks and cheerleaders society. Were there, did you feel any, like, similarities between the pressure to conform to American society, and the pressure to conform to the French language the [Quebecois] French society? Mary: The French side? Yes, yes, it was very difficult, Quebec, yes. It became very, very difficult. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Because if you weren’t fluent in French, you couldn't get a job, you couldn't do anything. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, it was starting to limit everything, there was like no freedom. To where, that's why everybody left, because parents did not have choices. Before, they had a choice whether to send their kid to an allEnglish school or an all-French school. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: But once it changed, you didn't have that choice, you had to go to an all-French school. Aidan: Right. Mary: And it was French Canadian. Aidan: Right, right, right. Mary: So, it was, it was tough, yes, it was really tough to be able to like, juggle all of it. Aidan: I see, but was that, is that, um, is that reminiscent of what you experienced when you came to America as well? Of just kind of like, kind of-Mary: Yes! Aidan: [that] it's easier to-Mary: Looking at it now, you know, you’re asking me that, yes. I totally, I totally felt like, yeah, there was another group you needed to be accepted by. Aidan: Mm-hm. �18 Mary: You know? And not feel like, not be asked all the time “where are you from.” And so, uh-Aidan: So, so when people ask you where you're from-- [slight interruption] Mary: [Gesturing to be quiet] Aidan: [Speaking to someone else] Don't worry, it's okay. [Speaking to Mary] Um, So, yeah, just like these little things like, um, you know, like, um, small, I guess did you experience any feeling of rejection when you came to America? Just like, like, you kind of talked about small things like the coffee, um, the neighbor coming over for coffee and being like “this is weird coffee what did you give me,” kind of like, not being very respectful, and even being a little skeptical. Mary: Yes. Aidan: In a way that you were made to feel bad even though what they did is, you know? Mary: Yes, they made us feel that we were like, weird, that we were like, weird foreigners. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And not trusting, even though my mother was very welcoming. And you know, when she asked to see the package, we actually, my sister and I, sort of made fun of my mom at the time, and we were like “you know, don't, you know, don't, this is a whole different world Mama,” you know? Aidan: Yeah. Mary: It was like, you know, “don’t make your Greek coffee,” and she was like, totally shocked. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Because, you know, it was, it was true! It was like this woman did not know and she thought that my mom, I don't know, had put something in the coffee. Aidan: Had poisoned her? Mary: Interpreted it in a totally different way. You know? Aidan: Yeah. Mary: So that was a little hard. That was a little hard. Aidan: Did you find a lot of those misinterpretations, or like, things, like you, I guess, previously at home, things you considered to be culturally significant to you, expressing them was more difficult in America? �19 Mary: Yes, well, yes because everybody where I, where, where we migrated to was [from] a very, very white area. And, um, they were very prejudiced. Like I said, if you weren't American, and you didn't have, and I didn’t have straight hair, I had curly hair, and I didn’t have a button nose and you know, whatever. So, we were considered, you know, foreigners. And so that was really strange because I wasn't, because I never knew that I was, in Canada, I never felt like that. Because everyone had different backgrounds like all my friends that I had in school, so their parents were from, like, different parts of Europe. And they were all like me, you know, they had like spoke English, they, you know, we were the first generations, so there wasn't like, “where are you from,” it was more like, “hey,” you know, “my mother makes this kind of food and we make this kind of food why don't you come over and taste it?” You know, kind of thing. Aidan: Um, could you maybe talk about a few, if you have any just examples of things that you thought were culturally significant to you, that were kind of like you felt like you had to suppress as a result of being in America? If you can think of anything, if you can't, it's no problem. Mary: If I can think of anything? No, not really. Aidan: I think the coffee is a good example. Mary: Well, the coffee, well you mean the neighbor, yes, that was weird, that was back then, yes, um, and them thinking that we were also in the Mafia was also, you know, because of the cars. Aidan: Yeah, yeah. Mary: That was also a bit weird, um. You know? I didn't, um, after high school I didn't spend any really much time there, so it was like I didn't want that part of the world, you know, so, I didn't, I didn’t engage in it, you know, that's why I fell in love with moving to DC and meeting all these different people, and so, yeah, I was like, I didn't look, I haven't looked back. And I’m glad I still, I live in Takoma Park now. But yeah, no. That's pretty much all I can remember. Aidan: Okay, okay, I see. Are there a lot of things you miss from Canada? Besides like, um, I guess besides like, more, uh, systemic things like governmental systems, uh, are there things like? Mary: Oh, I miss the food. Montreal has fantastic food, and, um, it’s like I said, multiethnic, so whatever neighborhood you go to, it's amazing food. You know, the Portuguese neighborhood has the most fantastic Portuguese food, the Greeks do, the Italians, it's like, very multi. And they really take, I mean, the food there is phenomenal, so I miss the food. I don't miss the winter. And I miss, um, I miss my family there, and it's a, it's a fun city, it's a really fun city, so, when I go visit, like, I knew from a long time ago I couldn't really move back to Montreal, because I would have to like really dive into French, and really change a lot where I was just sort of like, I wasn't ready to move back into the cold weather either. I mean if it was Vancouver? Maybe it would have been a different story. [laughs] But Montreal, I realized a long time ago that even though I love the city, I just couldn't move back there and work, it was just the winters are too brutal, [I] couldn't deal with it, the winter. �20 Aidan: I see, so it kind of kept you away? Mary: Mm-hm. Aidan: I see. Yeah-Mary: The winters and having to be fluent in French. Aidan: Right, okay. I see, um, okay, I have another interesting question about uh Montreal, so, um, it sounds like, yeah, a very multiethnic city, very multicultural city, with a lot of different, uh, groups. A lot of different groups of first-generation immigrants, of countries that might have their respective turmoils with each other in Europe. Um, did that extend to the immigrant communities in your experience? Or was it kind of like they came together, they, they maintained a degree of separation and a degree of uniqueness due to their heritage, and, and being in touch with this heritage, but also kind of were, um, joined under being Canadian at the same time? Mary: I, I did not, I did not notice prejudices. I think, um my family didn't have any, I mean, we didn't, I mean, we grew up in an Italian neighborhood, loved all the neighbors, loved our Italian stores I remember. We knew each and everybody knew us kids, we could go in and out. Um, no, I don't remember, I don't remember the, any prejudices there. I don't remember that there, there wasn't, I didn’t notice any of that. What I noticed was the racist, the racists here. The racist comments-Aidan: Yeah. Mary: The, and not just about me, but people of color. Um, it was very uncom-- it is very uncomfortable still, and it was just, I noticed that a lot here in the States. Because also, our black communities in Montreal, they're all, uh, they are African communities, French African speaking communities. Because it is Quebec, they bring a lot of immigrants in from the French-speaking part of Africa. So, coming here was a different cultures, whole different cultures of the African communities in Montreal, to the African Americans in the US, very different people. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, and very different history of course. And so, yeah, that was a bit different, that was very different um. But I think, I think also because of, like, all I can remember is because of television uh, the US is portrayed as like, this glamorous, you know, more then than I think it is now, you know? And I know, well, the other thing is, people that are starving and people that don't have anything, when they see how much we waste here, I mean, it all, even if you look at like how much we wasted in the beginning of the [COVID-19] vaccines, because some of the people were not the right age or maybe they were a few years off, or maybe they weren't actively on chemo, or whatever, they got refused the vaccine and the vaccines got thrown out, we wasted so many vaccines to where other countries, they didn't even get a chance! They didn't even have enough vaccines for their medical people! And so, when you look at how much, the gluttonous that we have here, it's a little rough. �21 Aidan: Yeah. Mary: Like I remember when one of my cousins said, when they came for the first time to the US to visit, and I said, well, “how, what was your experience like?” Because they, they were in New York, and they said, “what I noticed is that the homeless people in the US have really expensive sneakers,” to where on, to where the homeless people that we have in Europe, they have no shoes on their feet at all. So, there's just like, stuff that you notice that, you know, we have and then we don't have. You know? Like how can we have so many young children today that are not getting any meals? They are not getting any, they are not getting any nutrition? How can we-- and then we’re wasting a lot of food at the same time. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: So, it's kind of it, its, that stuff is scary, and, and makes me unhappy. And I hope that more future generations can do better things than we have. Aidan: Do you think that that culture, I guess like, overconsumption, consumer culture, do you think that is like a uniquely American phenomenon? Or do you-Mary: Yes. Aidan: Or do you think that it's just like, especially-Mary: No, I think of it as an American, uniquely American phenomenon, where we feel like, you know, we've got to, we can have this and we can have more, we need more, and we aren't really nice to each other. We don't really, you know, I, I find it, yes, I find it very greedy sometimes, and very, not very caring. Yeah, overabundance. Aidan: Okay, yeah, and, and as someone who was educated outside of the US, did you find that, um, from since you got here to even now, do you think there is an um, do you think that there is a uniquely American mindset that is taught? Do you think that there is like, that there are people who are kind of like, willing to defend things like overconsumption because it’s, like, “the American way” quote, unquote. Have you met a lot of these people? Mary: Mmm no, but I see, I mean, I see what's going on. The people that I know, they are not like that, but that's a very small, closed circle of friends of mine. But the overconsumption in this country is ridiculous. And we are, we are terrible! I mean, yes, we are a big factor of destroying the planet. So, we have a lot going on, we have a lot that we need to work on, but I also find that as a country there is always the other side, there is always a side that listens, that cares… that is trying to do something. For as much as right now, the ugly side has such a loud voice that it tries to like, drown everything out, to where it makes everybody feel sad and broken. To where there is a whole other side, I feel like, of people that are caring, and that are trying to do the best that they can. �22 Aidan: Mm-hm, yeah. So, I guess like, so we have about ten minutes left, and just to kind of close out, um, I want to ask a kind of broad question. Is there anything that you, I guess like, not have come to appreciate, well, we can talk about things, I guess we can start by: is there anything that like, because you said that when you first got here you did not like it very much, that you kind of grown to love it over time? Are there any things in particular that you have grown to appreciate over time about America, or have grown to, I guess, like is there anything that has grown on you in a way that you didn't expect? Mary: Um, what’s grown on me that I didn't expect was the understanding and love that I have for the people in the country. Because I've lived here. Because watching it, watching, watching America on the news in another country, like Canada, which is where I would have been if we hadn't moved here, uh, it's very, it is very scary. And so, I think what’s changed for me is that, I do kind of understand how it runs, that's why I said, you know, I see that the racist ticket in America is very deep, it didn't just start yesterday. I feel like there is a lot of work that needs to be done, but at the same time, I feel like we can move on, we can show the world, because everyone is counting on us, on this country, to show the light, and then democracy, I think we can do it if we fight hard enough for it. Aidan: Mm-hm, yeah, so, so to get a little more specific, I guess, are there any things, like, about America, so, so that's, okay, so like talking about political activism-Mary: America. Well, yeah. I would, I would want it, I would want to figure out something to do with healthcare. I mean, the saddest part of this country, and right now for me too because I'm working for my insurance, is like, how much we all pay, and how much we’re slaves to the insurance companies. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And how much, the very scary part of this country, besides all the gun violence, which is completely insane, is the fact that we don’t show a lot of appreciation about our people here, we don't take care of them. You know, health care is horrible, they are constantly trying to scare people, cutting Medicare, people that can't afford to get health care. We've lost friends because it was too late by the time they got health care because they were ill. And so, to me, it's, uh, that's the part that's like very, you know, when I think about Canada versus here, I think about health care. I think to where like everybody should have access to health care. And then if you want to pay for more, then that's an individual right, just like they have in Canada. If you want to pay privately you can pay out of pocket, but that doesn't mean you've got to sit around and be sick forever, and by the time you get screened, there's not, you've got some, you know, terrible disease, and there's nothing you can do because you didn't have insurance for years. And that's a very sad story in this country, and that's what breaks my heart, and that's what I hope really changes also, it's very big for me is the health care here. Aidan: Right, so, to sort of conclude, um, are there any things, I guess that you find that you prefer from living in America? Mary: Umm. [laughter] Aidan: It can be really, it can be really anything, it can be like cultural, or it can be anything. �23 Mary: Well, what I love about living here right now, is that I’m really happy that I didn't have a heavy winter. I mean I got to tell you guys, if you haven’t lived in Canada, Montreal, uh, 37 below the wind chill factor to 40, it is nasty. And so, I love the weather here, I love the seasons, well, it's getting a little funky, but I do love the fact that it was not a heavy winter. I do feel bad about the microclimate stuff. Um, I've gotten, I'm very close to my immediate family and I love having them around, so that's a huge factor, over the years how we've all been close, it would be hard for me to move away. There’s a lot of great stuff about America, there is, you know, we have the right to speak our mind, freedom of speech, you know? We have a lot of freedom, and we need to use it, and, um, and I think I love this country enough to fight for it. And that's why I want to become an American citizen, I want to be able to vote. That's a huge, huge factor for me because I think it's the best way my voice can be heard. Aidan: Yeah. Let’s just see. Okay, um, I guess we're about at the hour mark, um, I've asked pretty much all the questions I wanted to cover. My final question is: do you have any questions for me, or anything you'd like to add? Or anything you’d like to discuss before we finish? Mary: Um, the um, uh, well-- is, because you’re very aware of what's going on [dog barking] with migration, I'm just curious to find out what you're finding out, like, what is happening with immigration in the United States? And, and with uh, you know, people, how, how difficult it is for people to get in to become citizens or residents of this country? Aidan: Well yeah, of course it's getting more difficult all the time. Mary: Mm-hm. Aidan: Depends on, I mean, yeah, It kind of depends on, um I guess who’s in office. Mary: Right. Aidan: But clearly, um, I mean, immigration, immigrants are becoming more and more a topic of conversation in America I think, um, I mean America is a nation of immigrants, at the end of the day. And I think that a lot of people do not necessarily respect that fact. Mary: Yes. Aidan: Yeah. Um, but yeah, is there anything else you’d like to add? Or anything you’d like to, to say? To tell me? Mary: Um, no! I thought that uh your questions, it brought back a lot of memories, um, I sort of feel, I sort of felt at first that, that I just, you know, that maybe you need to talk to someone that was like, had a rough time coming into the country, but I think there's just so many different stories. Aidan: Yeah! �24 Mary: I think that everyone has a different story, and everyone that comes here, uh, wants to have an opportunity to be accepted, and be able to get a job, and show how much, what they can do. That's, the immigrants that I've spoken to, they're all about making a better life, better education for their families, for their children, and, um, and trying to make sure that the crazy MAGA doesn't get into office again, because that would be terrifying. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: And so, I'm hoping that the American people can show that democracy still stands strong. That's one of my biggest, um, hopes and prayers for right now. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: That's about it. Aidan: Okay, perfect! Alright, uh, I think I'm supposed to say something at the end, but I can't remember. Uh no, I think that's everything. Thank you so much! Mary: My pleasure. Aidan: Alright, I'll end it now. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aidan Lambiotte Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Tsiolas Location The location of the interview Takoma Park, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Tsiolas Description An account of the resource This interview is between Aidan Lambiotte and his aunt, Mary Tsiolis, a Greek Canadian immigrant to the United States. As the daughter of Greek immigrants to Quebec, Mary depicts her early childhood, and experiences growing up in both Greece and Monrtréal during the 1960s - 1970s. She draws stark contrasts between her experiences in Canada and her initial time as an immigrant in America, touching heavily on the themes of isolation, microaggression, and white suburban hegemony in the United States. She ultimately uses her experiences to illustrate the manner in which she found community in the DC area, entirely outside of Greek or Canadian culture, as well as her love-hate relationship with American identity. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Aidan Lambiotte Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 6th, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Canada community Greece health care music politics https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/771ebe932f09443849860b1585cd4761.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=GNpqlX5ajQ1vdIb5NMnX2FAISzAfLyWsbMvluORDtXY106rKLdP099Zo1BYTKMwjiXJ7IhOu0Fmvtwldcf-9dO8UMxSguIVxFRptD%7En0AdjFAvTMsuFwh5aVvLN4l-lb5QtWkJw4c1bK1Wxk5S1KTOxVw-n-b3oo5Crk4-CeREHe8aSWKuc3yQgQ3ldNKlZkfiEcyUaFNrl7tdS02%7EZUqdd0NyAM04JxeCK1-OWcX3NdV-jg-uwinfQPXbcA4w7UiEL7rwtaqx7EMQ%7EEGxHQfNq6HGg8SFwGkiv7k8k2mnuMnjICrdtnbMwuCLfDUw3Z3w7XwZ1IXSVeBaCH8FcRNw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sheisa Naderi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mehrdad Naderi Location The location of the interview Brookeville, MD Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mehrdad Naderi Description An account of the resource This interview of Mehrdad Naderi, conducted by Sheisa Naderi, outlines Mehrdad’s experiences as an Iranian immigrant to the United States. Hoping to further pursue his education, Mehrdad immigrated to the DMV area in 1979, right around the time of the Iranian Revolution and the Hostage Crisis. He explains how the timing of his immigration impacted his ability to settle into America. Through his interview, he also recounts his experience as a foreign student in the United States and the many different struggles that came along with it, specifically the financial ones. He explains the many different jobs and responsibilities he had to take on just to make it in this country, when so many others couldn’t. He asserts the importance of hard work and dedication and just how far they can get you, using himself as an example. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheisa Naderi Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 13th, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Farsi Hostage Crisis Iran revolution student https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/0d35d49fda04169d03882026be9edb67.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=e6Oa7nxjrHzksjPZcpr5h3alOSECfvgbvSZ-syQEWhy%7EJ3Xgka--E%7EjesjC1Eq%7EJG9aigzMrlx-sDqVS3GH1At90yPKSI5rDw7otoCQSF9Wdk7wvzNj8bSj4tUKrYZF3ewRpySGR6LGr9J2VH0F86P35wTta4vITgpJYeGn9bgAjOZ1f8AcS072ckkVraBY-KAX8b-mBm%7EmqGJbvCgwMZSdkDH5xfscBv0ilfmD04acXkNnLcd0v8hETEZ3GQSuBRJmX5zSxmwM2jI3StxejdDrhkTXQHLa3LbZc8gvkyDjhknC8SdMe50OuHAbv7DIxl-UQKwXx6VugH%7E0LhDEg5g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jade Shaw Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Suet Vu Location The location of the interview Rockville, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Suet Vu Description An account of the resource In this interview, Jade Shaw interviews Suet Vu and her experience as a young immigrant from Hong Kong to America. Suet Vu immigrated when she was 11 years old to Potomac, Maryland, and battled middle school as a non-English speaking immigrant with no friends or help. In time she was able to immerse herself and form an American identity, but later as an adult, she had to face the Anti-Asian semitism that came with COVID-19, which made her feel out of place. In this interview, we break down even more details about her life such as her childhood in Hong Kong, her family and children, her jobs in America, long-distance friendships that originated in Hong Kong, and most importantly, how happy she is to have been through it all. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jade Shaw Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 12, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History city English family Hong Kong school https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/0cfa2887546623bd8a4ba04c43939dd9.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=tlKWe5g9bV0muxGhKBkAM3AK2B6Bbn2GmxXEPtHpZczmExJpvRlW4Z1HBV9A8d1mhvRkqkgzZ2ExTQ-p5rx1P4XrVKnhCS%7EGmsniWMFbkVEKoRHv17KtmMjoP%7EcJ2hmxKK3el2BDRHPiA3Y0j5KElR9VTbD9gAsg3DwQKdjYjnbzJ4P-0%7E4g2tn4FvGgktUAafA7u-xvpyaLOEUkTCbP0olBKDSkuSTAVylpvH58H2rhMx3CrdMGDjdleAuq5fMomC6UCq7Nw6wHHMmbmbxZF4uJLfbCD5wjFW-3uaddnkp9fsANqXzo4X0ycenZH-6ImctLypsW9z7Ny43WOtKdoQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Constance Faith Tabora Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Iman (Pseudonym) Location The location of the interview Gaithersburg, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Iman (Pseudonym) Description An account of the resource Iman was born in Shiraz, Iran in 1969. His early life was riddled with tremendous loss and tragedy going through the Iran revolution and Iran and Iraq war. By the time Iman was 21 he had lost both his parents and served in a brutal war. Iman was set to make most of his life after the war being a big partier in his 20s. Questions about his early life came back once the dust settled later in life. In his 30s he met his wife and immigrated to the United States to find a career as a chef and become a father of two. Iman’s life is an example of the complexity of the human condition from tragedy, restlessness, resilience then to the ambiguity of healing. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Constance Faith Tabora Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 2nd, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History food Iran revolution war