2 10 13 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/8860bfdf40a3dcbd242624dd871943c5.jpg?Expires=1785369600&Signature=bAqSrtlRBNisZNJ1krvxeiiBjj9Pd-kW6EafIGbAYB3A76UnPPYZ3cLCwPG02%7ELe0Suxg45IAXzu0tIsNsM1k6gapssiF936l8ld4KsEkG-Qe1q%7EiI8BW-9zFs2oFPa3XJRbyrarJOFJUn%7EvVIzpzR7dJWFamPcJEGwokArAz%7EAeLdiACQX1xmEAt7UALxvZlCInLp-twUHK5o8R8EIcYh9JfnXTPytgrVOHRcw%7E3b8O7yUbd%7Eovoy4M1KOEbx4VRpHigvR-gmUx8%7EoICpXdepcHBLjeYRLkIo9F08-Zn3GdC-BJegVPpyxf7KOv9DDlyZTHvYrwiulBOuN8Sh%7EkAA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 719670027456c01db1ccd537bb8f92f3 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/004a93c62ba9027ef955ae51c9e1df8d.jpg?Expires=1785369600&Signature=OddVLeTxyetyr1AEhcrvlJAF1TKHJGXBe4FHSs8KhIFmAtxM74DQva%7E5%7EFQSDtlnfB4-vbUh0ebKx%7E8wmATXDbfi836xhNPCqWvuzIkYrB6RpjgF5gM5X4eYLYuEaGh1OfAJpeIh652-lthlBVe0xGa4IIpjW1uZrCWIu6Tw3620HdCD0%7EiOtIdQZloTr9bpUDsovQLdOuHoEd0i9q4uKRX0gz2OGa9a6wYUJK9INlsLek6wR3STCjEbYrBkNoHtCmTvSGcBVwSn5-d5KuPjezn0ZPzZfpkUuAo4OYqT9lGMI%7Ew%7ENNb11u-IxkRcfOcjGorIAadW0I-c%7EbMu5Ud4Vg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM c417289066f31be5e68fe4e1d02a374e https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/3c6d9d59ae5dfe3df35ca11b971d67a5.mp3?Expires=1785369600&Signature=C4o7mFKnanDoXGQCLu6pmShXb3zId3q68e3YbW84GCVO514tDTJF45R-b4PCOtumc8HwDorLHrmCmN1NS9EpPgHol8NmKDpN3cedJN-3WY2UB9jeOhqzZF2DrkSPOHypXtMxhc57gm9PhjJIZQbZlc-v6lpjOdxZSKtAVpLTWvy9DixawaJ63ynzGTQ7%7ESYAx71%7EhwM8RlCdLf1z0lUepb6tlHkV2nk0gKXZczG1cr-Yu2ZDytBsfYlduD4WV5X7y1JneSNZ%7EBnj4HiSsBwJzGKqaI3fuzR7rM%7EaKT7-byKI7faAS1dt6Z8TFHuT5Af%7E6IAFn1WjewOFcvxu2OlZnA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 584262c01dc99b9d24cf6c2cc1430ec3 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/e79c86aaa6e6f885dd6307f2fc0ff428.pdf?Expires=1785369600&Signature=IpAKkkTTaoC8VNllqgJz3vbryxNXXJqAsxaZ2gTwVlBLpgUFxzNQ8PLCY8cdT7aPkQ7q5mzXgfFuxJRmZwjvkdi9m1YM0Ib7uN05b8eSXddb%7ElIXsG-dTf9U%7E7skcKqHv6B5XGw295hQ4%7EoNUfunnoSlruOmGsI-TvuUIECUdYn-qGSUFPVLvx74xEqF79USOaXhaWcyl1sVAzuGpD%7E6R2xC95jPmsDrm4o4Dh0CjyhsxSavDOZsutYC81wnis95KP86yLYLsD0X8YT7pB7hMzx%7EOkemFzY0biaXhWjhD44WLwkoJodizYA5p0uPPS-R82fe2WU7XqyRFw5RBrma-g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 38665f0499689bf21955719f49d14101 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland IMMR – Spring 2024 Instructor: Dr. Colleen Woods Interviewer’s Name: Kaitlyn Kim Interviewee’s Name: Victoria Truong Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Vietnam Interviewee’s Current Residence: Maryland, USA Date of Interview: April 5, 2024 Place of Interview: Maryland, USA Introduction: This interview between Victoria Truong and Kaitlyn Kim explore Truong’s personal experiences and perspectives on immigration, highlighting the adversity of leaving a communist country in search of a better life. Truong discussed her experiences as a Vietnamese refugee in the US throughout her childhood, young adulthood, and adult life. She shares stories about her family dynamics and her difficult upbringing due to her socioeconomic status. Her strong belief in freedom and opportunity explains her appreciativeness for America, and throughout the interview Truong reiterates how she is grateful for where she is today, despite all the hardships she has faced. Keywords: Vietnam, refugee, freedom, escape, fate, opportunity, family reunification, communism, Asia, language, parents Kaitlyn: Okay, it's starting to record can you state your — I'm starting, are you ready? Can you state your name and today's date? Victoria: My name is Victoria Truong. Today's date is April 5, 2024. Kaitlyn: Okay um. First question is, where did you immigrate from and how old were you? Victoria: I came from Vietnam. Um I was at age — hold on. Um age eight. Wait, I left the country at age seven. Kaitlyn: Okay. So you left at seven? Did you come here when you were eight? Victoria: To the US, 1981. Kaitlyn: Okay, and well, since you immigrated at a young age, can you tell me a little bit about growing up in Vietnam? �Victoria: My father had left or escaped it to America, in 1979? I was home with my mom at that time, um — with my two siblings, and um well, actually three, but my sister lives with my grandma. And then my mom had me and my two younger brothers. Kaitlyn: Okay, so you had siblings, do you remember like, if you guys did anything together, or your brothers, or like did you get to see your sister? Victoria: Um, no, because at the time my dad was in the – left the country for a better life, or to give us a better life, in America. And my mom raised us on her own for the time that my dad is gone. And we still um we kind of had an okay life because we were not too poor. But um, the country is communist. So everyone always want to leave the country. But I got to go to school and my brother and my two brother was younger, they didn't get to go to school. So I was probably in, like, kindergarten, back in Vietnam. Kaitlyn: Did your older sister get to go to school? Or was she older younger? Victoria: My sister was older but she was living with my grandma because she's mentally, uh epilepsy. So my grandma took care of her. My dad's mom took care of her. Kaitlyn: You also said that your dad escaped? What did you mean by that? Or can you talk a little bit more about that? Victoria: Okay. Um I said escape because you are not allowed to leave the country, at that time, because the country is communist. And if they find out you left the country um or catch you, you can get um jail time or even killed, in jail. So from what I know, from what my mom said was he left the country so that he can find a better place for us, or have more freedom so then he can sponsor us or help us get over. But at that time you were not allowed to sponsor straight from Vietnam. You either have to leave the country illegally, or um like to another country. Yeah. But we left the country, um after my dad was in the US, trying to get us over to the US. But you have to go through a lot of stages for that. For freedom. Kaitlyn: And I know you said that he left first. And I know you were young. How did you feel when he left? Victoria: I mean sad because I didn't have a dad. But I was still young, so I still have my mom. And my mom always tell me that we gonna be together soon. So I always think that I'm going to get to see my dad sooner or later, because at that time, they don't tell you — I'm telling you escape but at that time I doesn't know it’s an escape. I doesn't know that it's illegal. My mom always say my dad's like out of the country on a business trip, and soon we'll we will meet up with him. But after when we came to the US, that's when I realized that we actually escaped from Vietnam because we were boat people. We left the country by boat, and so did my dad. �Kaitlyn: So before you left, what kind of things did you do in preparation for leaving? Victoria: There is no preparation. You don't know between life and death, you don't know, if you're going to get caught by the communists, you don't know if um, you know, all you can do is leave quietly. So I would say the only preparation is that my dad has helped us because he left the country first. And he would send a map home to my uncle and mom, but in in little puzzle pieces, and they would have to put it together. Because if the government ever find out that you try to leave the country, um, that's a big punishment. You either go in jail or they would kill you at that time, and this was back in 1978-1979 after the war. So basically, you left the country in Vietnam, it's illegal, but when you go to other country it's not because they would take you in. Um you know, the country is communist and no one wants to stay in a communist country. Uh, so I mean there wasn't really a plan but I guess it was kind of planned out by my dad to help us in a way where we wouldn't get caught. So he sent the map in little puzzle pieces where my mom and my uncle had to put it together. And then my uncle's home already have a ship that was already, uh like for fishing. So they use the fishing ship as an escape ship, or a leaving ship out of the country to leave the country, and it was by water, like by the ocean that we have to leave. So, all I can remember was that we left that night and you're not allowed to make any noise. If the government or the communists catch you, um you're done. Kaitlyn: And I know we have stories in our family about like, you having a dog, um or things like that, do you remember like if you just left really abruptly or if there were other things you had to do before you left at night? Victoria: Um no, we just, from what I remember was my mom always told me we're visiting my grandmom. But we have to leave behind my dog. And I always ask her why at that time because I don't know that I'm leaving the country. All I know is that I'm going to go visit my grandmom, and then my grandmom is going to take us to my dad. And that's the story that was uh, told the people around so that you don't get or the government or the people around them get suspicious that you're trying to leave the country here. Um, so at that time, all I know as I'm going out to visit my grandmom and spend time with my cousins and you know, my uncles and my aunts and all that would be there. And which is true because all my grandma and uncles and aunts were on the ship. So all I can think of at that time was oh, we're gonna go see my dad now, um on his business trip or wherever he was. So for the time like I say, it was it was all kept secret by my mom because everything that was done cannot be known by the government, because you would get killed like I say or you would go to jail. And there'll be no way out for you if they ever catch you at that, in, back in those time of years. Kaitlyn: Then, okay. Do you remember how big the ship was? Or how many people were on it? And like, what your experience was like on the boat? �Victoria: [Chuckle] Yeah. So the ship is overflowing with people for safety. So it was hazardous. It's not enough food. Not enough water. Not enough. All I remember is the whole ship was crowded, and if there's a storm coming the ship can sink, in which it did happen the storm did come. But lucky we were saved by another ship when we were uh, out in the ocean. Um but at the beginning, when we travel at night like I say we have to leave at night, I always asked my mom, why can't we be loud and my little brother was a baby, he's only a couple months old. And he would cried. And my mom would have to hush him because if they can hear a baby crying, or if they catch us in any kind of way. So we take from a small little paddle boat out to the big ship. And from that big ship, we would leave. And that's a fishing ship. It's supposed to be for fishing, not for people, you know, like cruising or escaping or whatever it is. But there's so many people that want to leave the country at that time. Um, it was overcrowded, but we can't send them back because if we send them back, they would tell on us and we would all be caught. So there was some people on the boat that we don't even know and then there are some people in the boat that actually knows that they're going, which is our family. And so, when we travel, I think it was like almost three days before we reach the map where my dad has my mom and my uncle put together, that my dad has sent to the island where he was, and that was in Singapore. So a ship from Singapore saved us and we live in uh, those uh, what do you call that? Kinda like a home on the water. Uh I don't know what it's called by that time but it was like uh, it's not inside the country it's outside the country but the places they built for uh, people like us, would be immigrants to stay out until we get I guess kinda like, asylum. Um and then we get put in another country which is Indonesia: Galang 1 and Galang 2. Um, and we would stay there I think almost like a year before my dad actually sponsor us over to America. Then we left on the plane and flew over to America. But at that time we were on a big ship, American– I guess navy ship? I don't remember what kind of ship, but it was a U.S. ship that took us to Indonesia for asylum, I guess, until we um until we get into the country, legally. Sponsored by my dad. Kaitlyn: Okay so, just to be, or just to make sure. Like from what I studied, refugees stopped by, or many refugees stopped by a first destination as you were saying. So you stopped by Singapore first, and then you went to Indonesia? And then from Indonesia, you went on a ship to the US? Victoria: Yes. Kaitlyn: Okay, um I know you brought some pictures. Do you have any pictures from when you were in Indonesia and Singapore? And do you have any stories you can tell or remember from the time you were there for a year? Victoria: I don't have picture of us sailing on the ship, but I have pictures like, just like, where the island where we stay with my uncles and family that we took. Um, but I don't have like uh boat pictures because I guess my mom, um at that time doesn't really say or tell me because I was too little to know �that she actually like, we actually escaped the communist country. Um she wants us to just think that my dad is um sponsoring us over. But when I grown up, I realized that we were actually boat people. Like both people that escaped from Vietnam, from communist country over to America. For freedom. Kaitlyn: Can show me some of the pictures from when you were on the island? Victoria: Um yeah, I can show you like, like there's a temple, there's um of my mom and you know my little brother, and my sister, and my uncle, and her uncle, and my aunt um, right here. Kaitlyn: What is this picture? [Pointing at the photo she pulls out of an album] Victoria: This is in uh Galang 1 or Galang 2. Kaitlyn: And what were you guys doing here? Victoria: Um we were just taking pictures. We live in this uh country, for a while waiting from sponsorship from my dad, from America. Like saying like it's okay for us to come to the US, legally, um by plane. Kaitlyn: So you, wait. So you got — So you flew on a plane to America? Or you got on a boat to America? Victoria: No, We rode on a ship, a US ship, to America and that landed in Seattle, Washington. And then from Seattle, Washington, we flew over to DC. Kaitlyn: Okay, but okay. You're showing me this picture and– Victoria: This in Indonesia where we have to stay. Kaitlyn: Yes. Is this the temple you were talking about too or no? Victoria: Yes. Kaitlyn: Oh okay. Victoria: This is all– this is inside the temple in um, the island. Galang 1 or Galang 2, Indonesia. Part of Indo— it's an island in Indonesia. Kaitlyn: Okay. Do you have any other pictures? Or are these the only three? �Victoria: Those are the only three that's from the, from the island that we kept, I kept, that I have, of my mom and my grandma and my uncles. Most of my uncles are gone now or passed away. And so is my grandma. But that's, you know, the only picture that I have of them. I don't have a picture of um, I have pictures of my dad when I first came to America, with my grandma. That's like the first picture when we first came to America. [Shows image of family standing in front of a tree] Kaitlyn: And was this when you were in Seattle? Or was this is when you're in DC? Victoria: Um in Maryland. In Maryland. And yeah. [Flips through photo album] Kaitlyn: Okay, we can go back when we talk, or look at the pictures again, if we need to jog your memory or anything. Okay! So, do you remember, I think you said this already. But now we're going to talk about when you're in the US. But do you remember what year you arrived in the US and what your first impression of the United States was? I know you were really young. Victoria: So, we arrived, I remember as 1981. And I have here the um, the shot records for school. So, like you have to get all these immunizations before you're legally in school. So the date I have was the first um tetanus shot that I have was September 10, 1981. But I think I arrived here in January of '81. Or, or somewhere in around before school start. Kaitlyn: That's okay. We don't have to know the exact date, but just a general timeline. But yeah, back to my next question, the question that I asked though. I know you're really young you said you were like eight. Um but do you remember what you felt when you first came to the US? Or like, what you thought about it? Victoria: When I first came to the US, um, my dad pick us up in a green Camaro, I think it's a green like sport car. I think that's a Camaro, Chevrolet, whatever, sport car. And the seats were like [laughs] like holes in it. And you're, you know, it's illegal to sit with a lot of people in the back on a sport car. But there's like four of us and my mom, so there's five of us. So, I just think it's– I have all these memory where I don't want to say that we're poor, but we were immigrants so we're coming in as refugees. So we have green cards, um permanent resident alien they call us um from, we get all that paperwork done in Washington, Seattle. And then we got- flew over to Maryland where my dad actually was, at the time, and he sponsor us from there over here. Um, at once we got, you know into America. Um, so what I feel was like, oh wow, you know, like my first ride or anything in a car because we didn't have a car in Vietnam. We rode in like, motorcycles or you know um, if I go to school the neighbor would pick us up. And the neighbor came with us too to America, um, on the same boat. So the person who lived next to us came with us because I guess she knew that we're leaving Vietnam and we don't want to get in trouble by not, you know, like, she's like next door to us. �So we all say like, my mom's like, she tells us many different stories like where we're just visiting my Grandma, I'm going to see my dad, and all that. But when I first stepped to America, that's when I realized that my mom, um, wasn't lying, that I got to see my dad. But she actually came to tell us later on in life that, we actually escaped, we were both people arriving to America, as um, legal immigrant because we got sponsored in by my dad that was already here. Um— I don't know at that time, we lived in Riverdale. So the apartment, I mean everything is like, even if it's the poorest thing here in the US or the poorest neighborhood or whatever, to us it's uh, uh luxury. Because it's more than what we have back in the country. At that time, when you're a kid you don't, I don't know, I don't know any better except I know that I got to go to school. I got to ride in a car, even though the car's broken down [laughs]. I got to see my dad. Um, it was like, a happy moment. You know like for a kid who haven't seen you know, like your dad for two or three years. You're, you're happy. Kaitlyn: Yeah. Okay. Um, you know, so I wanted to ask you about– because you said you were happy and that it was better than, your living conditions were way better than in Vietnam, even though it might be considered poor over here. Can I ask you about how your parents made a living when they first came to the US and what they did? And did you ever have to help out, and stuff like that? Victoria: Umm, oh yeah. So back in the 80s um, minimum wage was like two dollars [laughs], and something per hour. So my, my dad worked as an assembly in a manufacturer. And then he got my mom to work in there. Um but when we first come over there, my mom didn't have a job until later. My dad was only working uh parent. So we get help from, I guess you call it welfare? And um you were on like food stamp? We were on food stamps for a while. We were on um, you know, the government helped us for awhile. And, but my dad also had an income where he had to go to work every day, supporting us. And I still remember um, I couldn't work because I was only eight. But I was still trying to help my mom like, we would dig through trash can for clothing. We would you know, like go to thrift stores. We're not, it's like, if you're talking about poor, I mean, that's I uh guess it's better than living in a communist country. Because they control you, but here it’s not really controlling. It's like you can find stuff in the trash can which you can't really find in Vietnam. But I didn't have to find stuff in Vietnam. Like I said, my mom, my dad came to the US first and he send like money home sometime to help out, and my mom works. So I was kind of living like an okay life. But if I think if I was to grow up my whole life in Vietnam I would have been in a more serious poor situation than the US. But even coming to the US in like, I say not like poor, maybe can poor consider to the people in America, but it's not poor consider to people in the communist country. Third World country. Um, so I would say like, we, we were doing like, finding cans. We would sell cans, we would, you know, to the Safeway store to get money here and there for like our candy or ice cream. We don't get the luxury of, you know, like kids nowadays, where whatever you want to eat you can just go out to the ice cream truck and buy. At that time, we would have to have, like, I would have to, you know, like, have the extra money to go buy. My dad wouldn't just, you know, take us to the ice cream truck and say here �[laughs], "this is your treat". Because money back then was real tight. But once my mom start working and then they work, they work hard, they worked their way up. And I guess we were in the apartment for awhile because, maybe like my parents came over, my mom came over '81. And my parent actually bought their first home in 1986. Before they bought their second home in 1991. So I mean, my parents was hard-working parents. And I would have to like, at that time you're not supposed to leave your kid at home [laughs], you know, illegally, but I was only eight and I have to watch my two siblings, and my sister. So that was kind of like, illegal, but that's what we have to do. You know like when you, you work um, your parent goes to work, and then you get stuck home and— my parent can't afford babysit. You know they don't have the money to babysit so we babysit each other. We looked after each other. So we would get in trouble all the time if something happened at home. Um, sometime my brother breaks the apartment door glass. Sometime it's like you know, like, c'mon now I'm only eight so I had to watch over like, my brother what, three years younger than five, five year old and a two year old um, of course they're not going to listen to me over my parents but both of my parents have to be at work. So yeah, I helped a lot out, it's kinda like, the older sibling took care of the younger sibling at a wrong age, but we made it through and we survived. And like I say the car, um, was a sport car. But there's six of us every time we go, we have to sit, like hiding on the floor, and hoping praying to God that we doesn't get caught by cop [laughs]. Because my dad would be in big trouble. But every time when we go somewhere it's always like nervous breakdown for my dad because if he gets pulled over, he's done. Like, with his license maybe, or suspended. But luckily, I am grateful for, like God blessed us because we never got caught in that green Camaro that he have, Chevrolet Camaro I think, that was the car. And that was the longest car time, before my dad can afford like another car. And even then we still–six people in a sedan [laughs]. So it's for, it's for a while, like until the kids actually grow up and get their own like, you know, money and work and stuff to help out. Um, so I mean, if you call babysitting one another taking care of helping out, yes. Picking up clothes from trash can, cans to sell to you know, yes. But, I would say that's probably the happiest moment. Because you get to be with your parents, and you get to be with your family [tears up]. Kaitlyn: And I know that you were talking about taking care of your brothers a lot and being with your parents. What about your sister? Was she there and were are you taking care of her too, or where was she? Victoria: So, we have two apartments. So my grandma helps out taking, um my sister at the time, because I guess my grandma was like still young, at that age, my age of eight. I mean, she was probably my parents age right now or younger. Younger than my parents age right now, which my mom right now is 74. My grandma is probably in her 50s or 60s. I don't know. But um, my grandma helped out. We all help out. We live in an apartment— Kaitlyn: You lived in two apartments? �Victoria: We lived in– uh yeah because my grandma have their own apartment, with my uncles and aunt. And then, my parents have us. It's a two bedroom apartment for six people. So the four of us would be in one room and then my parents would be in one room. Kaitlyn: So your sister was, your sister was there with you guys? Victoria: Yeah, during, during, like um nighttime. But daytime she would stay at my grandmom because it would be too much for me to take care because she's older than me, and then I have two smaller sibling, so I can only babysit my two brother. I can't babysit my older sister that's handicapped too because if something happened, I can't leave her, you know, because then, people probably get suspicious [laughs]. But yeah, like I say, we did most of the illegal stuff, like, not illegal, but like illegal as in your– it's kind of like babysitting. You're not allowed to stay home at certain age. You're not allowed to ride in a car without seatbelt. You know, those kinds of things. But otherwise, it's nothing else that's like, tremendous you call illegal. Kaitlyn: Right, okay. Yeah that's fine. I mean [laughs], I just, yeah. I also want to circle back because you said, you're talking about your family now and like your aunts or uncles are with you, grandma's with you, your mom, dad, your brother, your sister. What happened, whatever happened to that neighbor, that came with you? Victoria: Oh! So, we're boat people. So whoever sponsor you, whatever asylum you seek for, whoever sponsor you, so we all spread out to different state. There's some people in the boat that we don't know goes to different states that– I'm only eight. So I don't remember all of them. But I only remember that one neighbor because that one neighbor lived in Virginia. And it was near my dad, so they came in contact with my dad later. That's how I know that they are nearby us. But everyone else is spread out because whoever sponsor you in the US is where you go. It can be whatever state. Like I say, we were actually brought in by the ship to Washington, Seattle before my dad's sponsor us over to Maryland. From the plane—to live with him. Kaitlyn: Mhm. Okay! Yeah I just wanted to circle back on that but if she was in Virginia, do you know if she's still here and do you still talk to her anything? Victoria: Um, so she, my parent did have connection with them for awhile. But I guess after that everyone goes on their own way because you, you're busy in America, you're too busy for anything. You have your own life, you have your own family, and they're not, they're just our neighbor. They're not like family where we keep in touch. So maybe a couple time um they came, um to visit us, but that was about it. Kaitlyn: Okay! And, now I'm gonna start asking questions, I guess more focused on your adult experience, now that we've talked about your childhood and stuff. Um, so pivoting to this question, I �know that many people who migrate to the US often end up being translators for their parents in a new society. Was that your experience growing up? And I guess when did that start, if it was? Victoria: So [nervous laugh], that starts soon because my parents don't, didn't go to school here. So their English is— whatever I learned in school. I would have to talk to them in Vietnamese at home. So I would have to learn two language, um, to communicate, unlike my brother who can speak English later on and, and not have to worry about Vietnamese. But they still have to talk to my parent in somewhat Vietnamese, but not like the older– in Asia tradition the oldest always take care of the youngest. So it's more or more on me as a mirror image for my brother. So my parents always expect more from me. Um, my sister's mentally challenged so they can't expect anything from her. So I was kinda like, the route for my parents, if anything paperwork wise. Taking care of my sibling wise um. It's, it's a, I don't want to say it's a challenge for me but it's, it's a lot of things that you can't— it makes you grow up faster. So, maybe that makes me want my kid to grow up faster because I have that kind of trait, where I have to learn everything and do everything on my own. Um, learn everything quick, do everything quick, uh catch on to everything quick, because you have to survive in a country that is your second language. So, taking ESOL but I got out of ESOL quickly and that I end up helping ESOL kids, at times. Um, but all is, I know that if I have to do it, I am grateful and blessed that my dad had given us that opportunity, or you know, helping us to get here, and working his day off, hard, to get where we are. And it's like a lot of appreciation. If it wasn't for my dad, we wouldn't be in the US. We would be still in Vietnam, in the communist country and third world country. Where, if you really see the poor side of Vietnam, maybe that's where we would be right now but I'm not sure where we would be at. But I know that being grateful and appreciation, and even though it's suffering, for me as a child to pick up things or learning things, it's a will. It's like, I want to do it. At the same time, I don't think, I don't take it for granted like kids nowadays does, like things that kids have now. They take it for granted. We take everything in, not for granted. We take it in as a blessing, a gift, you know, something that God grant us. Kaitlyn: Okay, sounds like you had a lot of hardships growing up, but are so grateful for your experience in the US. So I guess, my next question is, since you had to do everything a lot on your own, and kind of be like, suffice for yourself, how did you make money when you're in the US, and when did that have to start, if you were helping your family out? Victoria: So I started working as soon as my minimum age was legal. Which is at that time, or back in time was 14 and 9 months. You can work like 20 hours per week. Um, so as soon as I was legal to work, I started working at McDonald's. And at that time it was $4.25 an hour. And every paycheck I would go give it to my mom. And that's when she bought our second home. Um, my mom at that time, my parents would use my name and I was only what [laughs]. 14 Something, I was on the mortgage with them, because I have an income coming in. Um, but it's like that's my first job and every penny earned is every penny you know you saved. Um, I started working at that age. I bought my own car! I got, I go pay for �my own tuition. So you work around where you save and you go to school and you try, you always try your hardest and your best when your second language is not your first language. Because—you have to um, I wouldn't say fight for your things but it's like you have to earn it, and you have to uh, uh work hard for it. So, it's not a day in my life where I just like lay back and say "oh, this is nothing", this is you know, every penny is something. Because when you have to pick things from a trash can or you know, selling cans or you know working at age 8, or doing all the work that you did to survive– you take everything and appreciate it. So [tears up], to me um, when I started working when I can is when I, when I can, and I do everything that I can [sniffles]. I try to get as many job as I can because, I just want to have, I guess a simple life. Or if I have a family and my holiday that my kids doesn't have to suffer of doing what I had to do. Kaitlyn: Okay, thank you for sharing that. Um, I guess on a more happier note. Now you started working at 14 and 9 months but that's also the same time you were in high school. And I know you also talked about paying for your tuition. Do you remember how you made friends here and what you liked to do together with them? Or do you remember any of those friends and who they were, and if they were still friends with them today? Victoria: Yes! Um, most of my friends, we stay in touch with uh Facebook. Um and I went out a couple time, I would say once or twice um. And I did go back and look for my high school, one of my best friend, um that's not Vietnamese, like Indian, but she moved. I don't know where she moved to. But her parents still live at the same house! One of my friend moved to Florida, in Miami. Her name is Nicole [...]. And there's a friend of mine that lives in Columbia, Maryland right now, in Howard County and his name is Matthew [...]. And then I have a David [...] that's in Virginia. A Joseph [...] in North Carolinayeah! We stay in touch, even though it doesn't seem or feel like we're still talking, but we do. We you know, text each other through Facebook or we comment things. We don't get, because like I say everyone have their own family and busy life. So if there's a chance, we might meet up one day all together, we might. But I can name you like Lavinia [...], that's here. Kaitlyn: [Laughs] That's okay, you don't have to name all of them! Victoria: Yeah, but they're the friends that you know, that's long, best friend or good friends because we still try to keep in touch. And they're my high school friends and they're my elementary school friends, um middle school friends. That we stay from elementary to middle school to high school, and through college. And then you know as you grow up, as I was growing up I meet like, one of my best friend, Diana [...], is from high school at High Point. And we still go eat, we still do things and I introduce like, you guys, my kids to her. Um and then I have college friend like Margaret [...] and Jane [...]. And then I have like– it's always good to have at least a close friend, you know, from [laughs] your younger ages. But I don't know if they have to come over the way I do but I know they're also immigrants, um, my college friends. And probably the same way that I did but maybe like [sniffles] not boat people but �maybe sponsor by plane. Um but I was one of the friends that came over by boat, by like seeking asylum um, and I worked my way up. Um you know, I don't want to say rags to riches because we're not rich but to be rich is uh, when you know that you have food on your table or when you have like you said, still hang around with your friends, or when you are grateful for everything you have. Kaitlyn: Okay [smiles]. Thank you for sharing that again. Do you remember, I know you were talking about your college friends, being immigrants as well. Do you think that shared experience is, is why you guys are friends? Or why you guys, do relate to them in any way? Victoria: Um, that's not why we became friends, but we learned from each other once we became friends that, you know like, when we talk, oh, "were you like sponsor here?" It's the same condition where like, you know, they would tell me, my college friend would tell me- oh, like my friend Jane [...], she would have to take care of her siblings. She have to work the same age I have to work. Or she would have to you know, help out her parents where you know, like on welfare and opening up restaurants and you know? Try to better ourselves. So it's kind of like make, it made us stay friends like best friends, probably forever. Uh because we have that kind of relationship, or that we can understand where we came from, uh, but I also have, like I said, like my friend, Nicole [...]. She always asked me to come over to Florida because that's where she is. Like, I was her friend and she's like uh, we have sleepover when we were kids. And um, it's not that I distance myself but it's like I don't have time in my life, or you know, like, maybe one day I will when my kids are older where I have time to myself to go visit all my friends that I tell you that I still, keep in touch with through Facebook or stuff, and go see. But um, my college friend is more closer as um. It's like we build relationship because we can understand our, I guess our life is more alike. And we all work hard to get where we are today. Kaitlyn: And, do you feel like, well, I know who they are, so I know they're both Asian. Do you feel like you were more like, I guess attracted to making friends with people since you're alike? And because they're Asian, or because they're Vietnamese? And it was easier for you guys to understand each other. Or was that not something that you're thinking about when you became friends with them? Victoria: Umm, no that was not something I think about because I have all kinds of friends, like my, my best uh elementary school friend. Uh her name was Lakisha [...]. And she's, we just um, when I move was like at that time, I was only what, sixth grader? So I lost contact, and when I tried to go back to the same house to visit when I was older, and she's gone. Like she moved. So we all move on our own ways. But, it's not because they're Asian that I stay close with. But it's the personality. It's the kind of like um, you know, like the understanding the environment, or you know, like when you're in college and you have a best friend or you do things. And it's like, I have uh I want to say not like, all color friends? You oh, you call it color people or whatever it is they call it now. But I have White friends, Black friends, Asian friends, you know. We don't, we don't, how would I say? Uh like nowadays racist this and racist that. We don't have those back in our days. We are all like together, we're you know like one. We play �with each other, there's no difference in how we become friends. But it's how, it's how we, our personality, our you know like, what we like as one another, how we feel. It's free. You know like, we're we were more open. We're not like, I don't want to say today is more or whatever it is. But uh, I want, and I don't know, like how I, like the question you asked me is like, I want to say that we're opened. We're, we love each other for who we are and what we do and how we can relate to each other. And how not just because of where we come from, but like our, you know like our personality. Kaitlyn: Yeah. No, I understand what you're saying. I just asked that question because like in my experience, like my friend who's Vietnamese, I can relate to her on more things and stuff. Because we're both Vietnamese because we have the same shared experience. So I go to her to talk about that. But I might not go to my other friends to talk about that. And it just sounded similar to what you were saying. Victoria: Mhm. Kaitlyn: Yeah. Okay [laughs]. But I guess on the same topic, did you think about your Vietnamese identity growing up a lot in the U.S.? And how did that influence like school, your work, your family, and your social life? Victoria: Um, so the funny thing is, back then, it's more of, you feel like you're a uh, what do you call that? There's a word I can't think of it. Um. Kaitlyn: Can you describe it? Victoria: Umm. Not. It's uh, it's kind of like you're a... oh my god, I can't think of the word. It's like, on paper, they always ask— a minority! Okay, so the word is minority. Um, so in school, we're minority, just like you know, every other minority. But the only thing I have problem was when I was a kid let's say back, if I have stories to tell, I have lots of story to tell. There's kid that picks on you that think no matter what, you're Vietnamese, you're Japanese, you're Chinese, you're Korean, you're whatever. The first thing they think in mind is you're Chinese. They don't care what kind of Asian or nationality or ethnic, or you know, you are. Um first come to mind, everyone thinks you're Chinese. They never once know I'm Vietnamese until I say I'm from Vietnam. Like, where they asked me, “where you're from?” That's when they'll know! But otherwise, they'll assume that I'm Chinese. And I guess because Chinese people came before, to the US, or have migrated here, um before us maybe? I'm not sure. Um but I don't feel any difference in school as for Vietnamese. But I know that it makes me, work harder study harder because I was fortunate to come to a country with freedom and with opportunities. Then a third world country, where I was told by my parents that if I was still there, I would be less of what I am today then, you know. Kaitlyn Kim: Mhm [nods]. �Victoria: When I'm- when I'm, you know, if I was still there. So, I don't know if that's how other people thinks, but I know that everyone– Oh, I can't speak for everyone. But the friends that I know and the friends that I have, work hard to get to where they are. Kaitlyn: So, I think that you answered the beginning of the question. Do you think about, or I know you were talking about like working hard and that's, even like if you were getting picked on and stuff, that just made you want to work harder. Do you think about your Vietnamese identity now? Like as an adult, or like, with your family, and things like that? Or not as often? Victoria: Um What do you mean? Like Vietnamese? Kaitlyn: Cause you talked about like, you have a lot of stories [laughs]. Victoria:Yeah! So for growing up as a Vietnamese, it's kind of like you're in the minority group. Kaitlyn: Okay. Victoria: Um, I mean, the chances you have is still the same. Like, let's say, example, if I go to apply for jobs, I probably get the same opportunity, as you know, any other, you know, nationality, you know? Nationality or races, or whatever it is. It's, it's like, you feel, I feel fortunate because I can speak two language. That I can you know, use that! It's America where everybody is here. Not just White, Black, Asian, you know um, whatever it is. You know it's like everyone is in the sameit's like- you don't- for me it's, I was taught not to differentiate yourself. You're no different, you're all the same. As long as you work hard and you have the mind to keep it, you shouldn't think less or more or whatever it is. You're, I guess, because the way my parents or my dad brought us up is, you always stay strong and you work for what you earn. You earn for what you work. You know? It's like you um— and I think this is how I teach my kid now too is like, you have to be strong because you have to be independent. You have to know how to take care of yourself. It doesn't matter the color, the race you are, the ethnic you are or whatever it is. It's you, your personality. You are yourself. So Vietnamese, or white, or whatever it is, I think I am, I'm probably the same way. Because I think it's how you were brought up, or how you're teached as a child is how you're going to grow up with yourself. Kaitlyn: Okay! So you were talking about how you raised your kids with these values and these morals. Is it or was it important for you, when you, like was it important for you to raise your kids with Vietnamese traditions and their culture then as well? Victoria: Um I would say, important, I wouldn't use the word important. But it's good if they know their culture because then they can know their background of where they came from. Um, t's like I would send my kids to school1, so they could know the language. Or you know like, or it's like, I want to teach 1 In reference to Vietnamese Language School �them some tradition. Um you know, like, just for because they're Vietnamese. Their skin, I mean, their skin color, their hair, it's- they're still Asian. As if they walk out in the street, people are gonna say they're Asian even though they're born here. You know what I'm saying? Um so, just because you're born here doesn't mean like, you know like, you're not an American. It's like some people think, like, just because of your skin, your color, that's who you are. But they have to think that we're in the U.S. We're united. It should be everybody. You know? So I think it's good that my kid knows the background of where they came from, like, for knowing that their grandparents are Vietnamese. Their parents are born in Vietnam, you know. They're born here and maybe their next- their child is going to be born here, or are they going to be mixtures of you know. But it's always good for a child, even myself, to know where you came, you actually came from, so that you know um, your ancestor. But you don't have to remember the bad things of your ancestors. Like for me, even though Vietnam was a communist country and I left the country because of it, I wouldn't think poorly of my country because hopefully one day they would change, you know. They would become a more united, like here. Or more open. So being Vietnamese is kind of like a good thing, and more opportunity, or with any kind of nationality you are. Once you get to the US it's like, opportunities are there for you. It's either you take it or not. Kaitlyn: Okay, um. That makes sense. I guess, my next question is, we were talking about how you want your kids to know where they came from, preserve their background. Was this something you thought about? Like when you were marrying, or dating people? Like was it important for you like in your early 20s, I guess or, in your dating life, to like, to be committed to marry someone else who was like Vietnamese? Or you also talked about, how like, that never mattered to you also. So maybe like, this wasn't even a thought in your head. Victoria: No, I strongly believe in fate. I always teach my kids that. And I tell you, your journey in life you never know who you're going to marry, who you're going to meet. And, you can say no, you can say you only marry White you can only marry Black, you can only marry Asian you can only you know whatever it is. But at the end of the day, you don't know that answer because it's your fate. And I truly believe in fate. And I truly- if you have faith, or if you believe in something and you have faith in it, God will grant it to you. So I believe that to me back then it's not all Asian that I dated, I dated black, I dated white, I dated um many. Uh, other, you say races, but it's my parent. So it started with my parents where, they would only want- because they were raised, I guess, in a like I said, in a communist third world country. But when I came here, I was eight. So basically, I was raised here in the US where it's united and open-minded. And for me, it's like, there's no difference. I don't see that. I don't see, you know, like all the commotion now about going back. Why are you going back when you supposed to go forward? You know why are you going back to like slavery and think— why are you putting those things in your kid's head? You know, like, you should be going forward to move up, to improve. You shouldn't go like backward, you know? So for me, I think it doesn't matter. And to me back then, if, if my fate wasn't to marry my husband right now, which is Vietnamese, maybe if my fate �was to marry somebody might be different like my brother. He marry, you know, a white German, mixed, you know? So you can't say that you have a preference. I believe in fate. Kaitlyn: Okay [chuckles]. UmVictoria: Because my parents would love for him to marry an Asian, you know, whatever background or whatever it is. Kaitlyn: Okay. So I guess, your parents impose those views on you but you didn't really care or you didn't likeVictoria: It's not that I don't care. I respect my parents thinking and thought. But again like I say, you can't control a person's personality. And you can't control a person's mind. You can give your opinions and thought. But if they're all fate that they have to deal with. And they would have to see that themselves. And I can't speak for everybody. Kaitlyn: Yeah. Victoria: I can only speak for myself. And that's why I tell you, I truly believe in fate and I see it where, if you want to be someone, or, you know, not to be successful or whatever it is. You got to have an open mind and you have to know that this world is not just you. You, you know um, I don't want to say that God didn't bring like different colors of people for no reason. There's a reason behind everything and I think that, for me, it's more important of being united being open, being like- you have to understand people's point of view. I mean you can have your own opinion but you have to like also listen to other people's opinion. Doesn't mean that you're wrong or they're wrong. And it doesn't mean you're right or they're right. It's just, if I had, if my fate was to marry another race, then I would've been marrying another race, right? Um, but I marry my husband right now. You just have to learn to make it, not make it through in life. But you have to just to learn, like, how to deal with things when it comes. Kaitlyn: Yeah. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I guess still being on the topic of family, can you talk a little bit more about your family? Like your kids and like, where you lived? And just share like your experience with having a family in the U.S.? Victoria: Hm. To me, I think family is everything. So family comes first. And I think I've always put that in my kid's head. I don't know, you know if they're going to understand it [laughs], but I always tell them that family comes first. And I want to say I try to work hard so that I have a family, with my kids growing up where- I don't want them to be in a situation where you know digging through the trash cans or stepping on cans and selling at Safeway. So, every parent's gonna want something better for their kids. Every parent. You know what I'm saying? So, my parent might be the whatever, of course, they want the best for us but like I say, again, fate brings you to where you are. So I try hard to make stuff for �my kids where they have everything. But sometimes it's hard because we started off as um you know, you can't help it when certain situation happen. So, when I try hard back then and then I bump into a few bumps, with my life or with my fate, or with my journey- I mean, I wasn't happy with my kid living in one room when they were like five or six, you know? So I try to get my own place. You always try to work hard because everything you do I think as a parent, or for me, family comes first. So as a parent I always try to make things more for my kid. And hopefully they understand one day. Maybe sometime I'm probably rough or tough on them. Or more protective, or more secure, or whatever it is. It's only because I want good things to come out for my kids. So, I don't know how to tell you like, I mean, no parent is a perfect parent, no kids are perfect kids. And again, things happen for a reason. So by, God forbids, I'm gonna go back and tell you that I strongly believe in fate, and wherever it meant for you to be or where you are, uh that's how it's gonna be. It's just like, for example, I have cancer, I thought my life was over maybe 10 years ago. Uh 11 years ago actually, 2013. But I pray and I asked you know to stay a little longer with my kids, at least to give them enough time to grow up or to understand things or to help them a little. And God granted that or, you know, the higher up granted or whoever it is, my guardian angel, or whoever it is that granted the wish. So, I always think if you have a strong value in family, it's how your kid's gonna become. If a kid doesn't have a strong family bond, then I think they might get lost somehow on their way with their journey. You know? So I think it's important for you, as parents, to understand your kid and for your kids understand you. And it's hard sometimes for kids to understand you because they're, they grow up quick now. You know, they— how would I say it? I guess, back then we didn't grow up as fast as kids nowadays. You know like, the world is growing with new technologies so things are of course gonna be more improved. I mean it's a good thing. But I don't think schools nowadays are teaching them. Like, in school. Like before, you have handwriting classes. You don't have that in school now. And I mean, technologies is a good thing but it's only how you raise your kid and how your kids takes it, to make it the best. Kaitlyn: Okay. I’m tryna think. I guess I know you're talking a lot about your beliefs and your thoughts on how you wanna raise your kids and that's really important. And I always like to hear that, obviously. But I also want to hear about I guess, just your experience, and like, growing up Vietnamese in America . And like, was Maryland the only place you stayed? Like can you share anything about like, what it's just like being an immigrant? Victoria: Um, I can tell you being an immigrant, coming to the US, is a long way. And that's some big dreams for some people. And for some people— I guess uh because U.S. is all known as you know, freedom. And everybody, I guess, not everybody, I don't know if everybody thinks this way but communism, where the you know everything's controlled, and you don't have that freedom. So when you come to a country with freedom, of course you're going to cherish it and appreciate it and are grateful for it. So, by being an immigrant coming to the US, for me, because I came at a young age, at eight. But I know my parents always, always, say to me or always tells me, "you better be grateful, you better thank God that I brought you here", or "we brought you here." Right? And, so, that's been in my head where I know that I better appreciate. But then I also learn on my own that you appreciate things �that you don't have. So, when I see like other immigrants, now that's trying to come into the US, illegally, um that makes me kind of, I wouldn't say mad, but I think is unfair where I- we have to work our way to come here, legally. Seeking asylum and doing it the proper way. Not just like running through the border or getting on a you know, like nowadays. It's a lot of changes. So, I would say that coming here to the US during my time, you're more grateful. And you're more blessed. And you're more thankful. I can't speak that for now where the immigrant just come in now illegally, because it makes the people that's been here, you know, where they have to obey the law and pass the law and get here, like during my time or after my time. We work hard. Kaitlyn: I just, I guess I'm just like... I'm like, I'm happy that you're sharing like how you feel about things and stuff. But I guess I was wondering about just your experience, like being in the US. And not like, what you think of the other immigrants, like your own experience. Because I just wanted to knowVictoria: Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. Like, if my own experienceKaitlyn: Yeah, like, so my question, I guess, was asking, like- basically, do you have any storiesbecause I know, you came to Maryland. Like I wanted to hear more maybe about like, did you move anywhere else? Victoria: Ohhh. Kaitlyn: Did you, like how was that? Like finding your way in the US being an immigrant and things like that? If you have any stories like that. Victoria: So when you when you grow up and learning your way, umKaitlyn: Like, was it just Maryland? LikeVictoria: No, it wasn't just Maryland. I mean, I've uh go to Minnesota. Um but that's, that's like, as an immigrant, you have to learn your way around and you have to like know. But that's like not from being an immigrant, moving to Minnesota. That's like, I moved to Minnesota because after I graduate, I have a job offer. Or you know like, being like, it's like, it's like I'm telling you like, like my friend, we move to different state. And some friends go back to their own state. Um, so when I graduated from college, I moved to Minnesota because I have a job offer. So it's like, you take the best offer and you work hard and you know for me, it's like, opportunities. So it's like opportunities open, you take it. And I don't know if other immigrants feel that way but any opportunity that comes their way, they're gonna appreciate it and they're going to take it and they're gonna um you know, like, live the best out of it. And so for me, I live in Maryland all my life since I was eight, until I graduated from college. Then I moved to Minnesota for about a good 10 years, and then I moved back to Maryland! So you always go back where you came from. Um not as in country, but as in like, you know, like your parents or your family, �are there. So my family was still in Maryland. I was only one that moved to Minnesota. But that again, I tell you is because it's from- I graduate and an opportunity opened. So I want to get the experience in my first job. Get the experience so I can have it on my resume. And then I can apply for work here in Maryland. And when I went back, I mean, I have my first child in Minnesota. And then I moved back here and have the rest of my three children here in Maryland. Um, so it's, it's like— I already left my own country as a child moving to the U.S. And then I left the state that I was raised in to move to another state. So that tells you there's a big difference because once, when I left my country, it was it was not a choice. It was I have to go for the better life, or better uh, living. Or better whatever it is, that you know, at that time my parents wanted for me. So when I left the state, I had a choice. I didn't have to move to Minnesota. But I chose it because of jobs, because of opportunity. So it's more of a like, in a sense of a way where I think, like, just in general, um, maybe that's from the same feeling or thinking where if I have an opportunity, I'm going to take it. Kaitlyn: Okay. That makes sense. And I guess like with that in mind and like, I feel like there's a theme of like opportunities, freedom, and like, what America has to offer. Do you have any plans for the future? Are you thinking about anything specifically? Victoria: Um— if I had a choice and if life let me live longer, um— I would take all the opportunity given. Like if, if I can open up my own business. Or you know, that's always been a dream, that I have my own you know, um, working or my own place, that I work for myself. Um, and same thing goes for, like I say, for my children. If you know, every parent's going to want their children to be better than them. So if there's if I, if I have the time and you know if I can, if I know the future, and have choices, I would take every opportunity there is. Because I know that America have a lot to offer. Opportunities and everything else that other country might not. And um, I would actually if, if I could, I would help the people back in my country because I was given that opportunity— to have a better life. And I probably would want my children one day to know that um, like you say freedom and opportunity, that they have, that they can go a long way sharing it. And I already see that with you, my oldest child, um doing it not just because of immigrant, but you know like um, you are not an immigrant but you share like, my cancer situation. Where you pass it on and you know, like helping other kids.2 So that's the same way I feel. I mean like with immigrant um, not every immigrant want their life to be that way. They, try to you know, everybody wants to have a better life. And everybody wants freedom. And everybody wants opportunity. And everyone, you know, I think. And some people are given that, they're given choices, where they have choices. And there's people that aren't given any choices, where they have to fight, uh for it. So, if I was given like, more time? I would help. It would make me feel more better if I can help people, to think or to know, or to understand that you know that being an immigrant isn't easy. Um, It's a lot of uh, a lot of work. Not work as in like you do work physically, but a lot of challenge and like mentally and physically. And uh, every, how would I tell you? I don't want to Kaitlyn is the director of UMD’s chapter of Kesem. It is a national non-profit that supports children who are impacted by their parent’s cancer. Victoria is referring to this organization when she is talking about her cancer experiencing and Kaitlyn passing on help. 2 �separate or make the difference between immigrant and non-immigrant, I just tell you, every human beings are gonna want the best for themselves. That's I mean, my opinion. Kaitlyn: Okay. Um, awesome. Well I know that I'm taking a lot of your time up [laughs]. So we're nearing the end of the interview. But I guess I have two last questions! First one is, I'm curious to why you were interested in this interview? And is there anything else you would like to share about your immigration experience. Or about being an immigrant? I know, we have stories in our family about like, the ice cream truck. Or like, you said that you wanted to start a business but I remember stories about like the cell phone business we had. Like, is there anything you want to share, that's left? Or, you don't have to if you don't want to. Victoria: Um yeah. Like I told you, I always wanted to have a business, but there's business that fails and there's business that you know- cell phone business was not really my business. It was my dad's. And my brother's. So I just help out. That wasn't really my business. So if I have my own business one day, it might not be a cell phone business. Um, it might be something, where, maybe charity? To help you know, the poor, or you know like to go to other country to support you know like, third world country. To help childrens like myself at that age, to have better schooling, you know, like, you don't have to go through the trash can to dig for stuff or stepping on cans and, and stuff like that. Or go working at an early age that, nowadays people call uh childKaitlyn: Labor? Victoria: Labor. So there's many things but you know, like, child labor can be good or bad because child. [Alarm rings and pause in recording] Victoria: So as I was saying, child labor can be good or bad. But you know, like sometime, if child labor is a will from the child, then it’s not bad. But if it's a force or if it's have to, then it's bad. But that's just an opinion again like I say. Like, but selling ice cream with my dad. That was my dad's business too. Ice cream truck. So I have to like help out working after school. Um, every day go sell ice cream until like eight-nine o'clock, come home and still have homework. That's like an Asian culture where I tell you back in the days, where from my parents’ generation, not my generation, but my parents’ generation. In Asia it's always, you respect the elder and whatever say goes. Right? So that's a communism country. But you know, like— I think in most country to not just Asia, uh because I have some um, Hispanic friends or co-workers that they say they always respect their elder. They never like dare to speak back or whatever it is. Um, but I don't know if it's every culture are like that. Like America is freedom. The kids can say whatever they want, or how they feel. Because again, the word is freedom. They have too much freedom. But it's, it's, it's, it's like how I would say like— if like, I can't express it to you. But I can tell you that, just be glad. I am glad that I have the opportunity, the freedom, and the will �to do what I want to do. And I was- and I am grateful and thankful, um that I was given that opportunity and freedom to do so um, by coming here, to the U.S. And I would want to pass that along to many generation after me, to know that um, or to teach my kid that um, or to let my kid know that it's not easy. From my parents to me, to their generation might be a little easier. But of course, that's what every parent want. It’s easier and easier for the next generation, right? But when it gets out of hand and control where um, when it gets too easy, I think the kids doesn't— take it in as uh, being grateful anymore. They don't appreciate things. I don't know if you understand what I'm saying. Like they don't appreciate things. You don't learn to appreciate things until it's too late. Or you don't learn to appreciate things unless it happens to you. So um, if I have, uh to do it all over again, coming to the US, as uh, I wouldn't regret it. Kaitlyn: Okay. Alright. WellVictoria: It's like an experience. Kaitlyn: Yeah, I don't really have any more questions. I guess my last one is, what was it like to share your story? Victoria: I'm glad that you asked me to be in this interview, because I like to share my story so that people know that, not every immigrant is bad, or not every immigrant is good. It's how that human being bring themself um like, here. Or bring themselves to be known. Or how they treat others and themself. It's like, I'm glad that I share that um, I'm glad that you offer me this interview because it's kinda like, I want to share my point of view as being an immigrant. It's not easy on an immigrant, um, because they have to learn second language first of all. Second of all, when they come, not everything is free. They have to work for it. Um, so it's like, it's not easy? But it's not hard because you're given the freedom and opportunity and there- I know that there are some people out there that take advantage of it. And um, and that are not grateful. But for me, as a Vietnamese, or raised child or Asian, you call it uh, raised by my parents generation. Uh, It's a lot harder than then the new generation these days. Because uh like I say, as each day we improve. You know, we learn, we expand. So— if you go back in the old days, I would say I like to share that. If you as a human being, love yourself, think yourself, believe in faith. Believe in, you know fate, and things happen for a reason, and be more open minded to things instead of closure, um then I think you would be okay. Uh, anywhere you go. Even like, you know, other country, not just the U.S. Kaitlyn: Okay. Well, I think that’s all I have. I’m gonna ask one more time if you wanna share anything else but other than that, yeah. Victoria: Um— I just wanna share that, I, like I told you um, you’re probably gonna hear it over and over again, that I think, I can’t speak for other immigrants but I know that we are all grateful and we are �blessed, and we love America. Uh because, we are given that freedom and opportunity to be here. And to grow ourself, and to make life better for our children. And I hope society, uh, doesn’t take any difference in what status you are or what nationality you are, or you know like uh, who you are. But like, they would take you know like, into consideration that we’re all humans. We all have blood running through us and that we all should love each other. Uh, you know, love doesn’t mean like, intimately or whatever it is. But like care, you know like, like if we, if we appreciate each other and work together I think this country will probably be the strongest country. Because it’s, it’s already there. But it’s just, it’s just getting, I don’t know. Ever since COVID, or ever since whatever it is, it’s uh, it’s like going backwards and not forward. Victoria: Um, so I would like to share that um[Pause in recording] Victoria: I guess in one short sentence, that I can say, that um, I’m happy and I’m grateful, and thankful for your interview. And to share my thought of um, of my stories, um it’s like if I go on with stories from a little kid until now, you gonna have many and I can have many. Um, but the one thing that I’m blessed is that, I’m here in the U.S. now and this is my country. Um it doesn’t matter, you know, you left your country for a reason. So when you’re in this country, you need to make this country, your country. You shouldn’t like um, separate, make separations of you know, you know “your country, my country.” If you, if you left, I believe one good thing is that I learned, is that if you’re gonna leave your country to come to another country, you need to appreciate that country that you’re in. And um, I guess that’s all I can say, for myself. I don’t know if other people might think that way, um but they should, because why are you gonna um, talk about the country that you left, right? Um the reason you left, because, that country wasn’t good for you. So you came here to the U.S., you migrate here to the U.S., you should be grateful and thankful, and make this your country. And I just hope that in the future, where my kids um, well you know, I’m just being honest. My kids, your kids, the new generation kids, is all in one and united. And I think just because you have black hair, or your skin color, or whatever it is, you were born here in this country. That means you are the U.S., you know citizen. You are an American. And I still think, until this day, I believe that many people still have separations, of whatever color, whatever your skin color is, whatever your races is, you’re different. And I believe that there is no different. And all in one say is that you’re human beings. And there’s blood in you. And I think everyone here should be united like it say, united, you know? One country. It’s many different color to be one. Not just White or Black or you know, Asian, or whatever it is. It’s all together. So— migrating to the U.S. is one of um, of many immigrant dreams. And I’m thankful for my dad for bringing me over. And I hope my kids are thankful that they’re born here, and realize that later too. That’s all I can say. Kaitlyn: Okay. Thank you! That was uh, that was, you said one short sentenceVictoria: Oh, sorry. �[Both laugh] Kaitlyn: No, I’m kidding. I’m just kidding, umVictoria: Well you have to combine that now because I’m not good with words. Kaitlyn: It’s okay. It’s okay. [Continues to laugh] Um, okay! Thank you for doing the interview. Love you! Victoria: Love you too. [hugging] Victoria: Thank you for having me. Kaitlyn: [Laughs] Okay, alright, that’s it! Nothing else right? Do you have anything else, or that’s it? [Laughs] Victoria: I don’t really have anything else. I’m just, I’m just grateful you asked me to interview and asked me, finally let my feelings out, andKaitlyn: Okay. Victoria: Telling you how I feel, you know. Kaitlyn: Yeah! Victoria: So thank you. Kaitlyn: That’s it then, alright. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kaitlyn Kim Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Victoria Truong Location The location of the interview Maryland, USA Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Victoria Truong Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kaitlyn Kim Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 5, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource This interview between Victoria Truong and Kaitlyn Kim explore Truong’s personal experiences and perspectives on immigration, highlighting the adversity of leaving a communist country in search of a better life. Truong discussed her experiences as a Vietnamese refugee in the US throughout her childhood, young adulthood, and adult life. She shares stories about her family dynamics and her difficult upbringing due to her socioeconomic status. Her strong belief in freedom and opportunity explains her appreciativeness for America, and throughout the interview Truong reiterates how she is grateful for where she is today, despite all the hardships she has faced. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR400 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Colleen Woods of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, mp4, jpeg Asia communism escape family reunification fate Freedom language Opportunity parents refugee Vietnam https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/8101ab9d0933fc5e30e0bf4616ea2b9e.jpg?Expires=1785369600&Signature=hN67I1ZRLJN-sVEJ-PFyebUsolx1isUt-nSWlrX0M7mJonrzLGOt9aBrIp8mhwFwEMTs059fVCmNJcd2JMKfdvMrfAxcNf57GD79HXE3UaqEIo4SaPhn5DFO2zxwQ84Cb4qwxsrIVsq3Fsc1f%7Eq%7Evdyx-2vzwCdIIJwYf4WGk7GrzvJismj44ywbs%7EEGTMRlruBeuxLmfdo8L6vOpjw3%7EBPkgT6VoT7KWoGW2LfECGu0mBHWfpCGKL-RdY2fQxP6uhzAnZ0bLVZ2ZCd7TJbDC9%7E3iLGMt280BMnZdud3gco%7EG9oiIGHL5LM5ogGtxbCJKIug1G34C9pUurrgWAJnfQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 08ca2efc5aebcb3dc49943609650babc https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/859fd4cdb9a9d04edc5c078c3eef28c9.m4a?Expires=1785369600&Signature=p0Sa0aEwF%7EirMSzXv38XZHFWK0-q%7E46anMISYas8RPeOzHan69acpwuz2HsAQvqKqg8Le6d6y7X1h8hir03uBqIg8BqBTRkNbIA%7E4eOFNut8jnlhnmHU1RN4MlnbUSXACcD8gtVw2S%7E4QDB0M%7Enj6ATiy8oOKShaRNBe5L6yEF%7Ez95Wt%7EmhZKhK9l7lPXwqMs-wr4sHkjOTKHDtMp5fZ-JYuqujXJvBq4GX7-9NC3TLu8YF-ZkzBbyhdPdiyNJ6BQmADD7BuYVei6k438W8MxkEyUcfdm9aGS0X8zXI0FcsRKJTaiReB59RD%7Eg2D1CeFGIPuitjJr4%7ECIbHhhQCZOQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM a37ba86aa2504976fb98b8db4bd437a0 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/152da5e26506db715f5db91563408783.jpg?Expires=1785369600&Signature=MbyLQ8eZlKNezYlvxqqEf7rii-BvqHWmtXiwlyX7z2WytvGtXT0tgfpVPt7uNQW0rsGVf4%7EUBGyBO2UxN8knHTtfu25j9FFr09CSHHmG27AQ0Q5MasKb-0-N7Z7L5NrTuiScvseppypr4iNN6ClQabyarZjrT5VXrURQgFehwct68gxxJfWlOtjR0gTKLaXnIjwWVrme2toY3Q-SJpeHyBJ5FYaRHhQ2KXjQQkQA7BuN4JxUGBHlq0W52YjufTdiCG4rQ-5lkaRRH9UfGmRYrODUSQDg%7Ejy3GSa2SxM93vZKHir-N8lLebIlvWUgAzDJWMfdzQyax6HOlLJXH%7EGD3g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c24fb275a6c352e2b0315b5104021e4 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/4f1721f28b6d47ba10296762a7279c74.jpg?Expires=1785369600&Signature=FFF4T-mYUSDwvZhMiRba147kyse9mW9YniYV8z9ppOIDqaecrupkVlZH-rqlCUvzOJgw06eVA6RLr4K3nQikSBz1Ya61oHRPy0KvnjtqygKdj4kJ8vWWyZwfrBK2oS-SxtlGAfGT07MABh5gNaOfxwfmgROh5ybt1v3My3wNNdhWZONm009zAn%7EQR%7E7adlDBTbkHgS51D6vr3Dl8ODOS1t9c83BPIQpr6uHVvWdslTA3FT64i-WjhjO54ObjJigjnC1NehY-C2N-bftfQzFislZBt6K%7E-i9qhGP%7E0BTXJyGy%7EtxqKAA5-b2I0xCAGTe9dCPFv%7EqgobivMRAzZZwDlA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM d736b3e465ca2c4ada2f5e53782cb794 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/005201174d29d4911d2a9bac604b1309.pdf?Expires=1785369600&Signature=stLDdKWtzWTxy3v6ELW3Ozrc3KJ1wTEdgr2iHBYpMtln1Jc6DMi7GmWfbo8AFNeYOsJT0m144utQiR1fMo7Wflsb0WN11oFkHVZNLCeGsRrK79aYNy26yplM2zsf0DrLm4c072xK0mjkZJtKyAJ0hCp%7EIRn8xLEOwmDyUBJJefSDW%7EYAe0cunC2XP1z6LR9%7Ed-pyVeaj8YbPQoQv8xjwObl3KuorIYUlsmgjFfGavq4xb5VbaNpBGLjEijA7f3KSX3-jpoHmoAYsLilXL2GLfiSFXpl5d5%7E8n%7EuY1rXXo34nqdDlAMrCVTfmYz%7E9-hGIlHC9w4yj2y9VFB4qRc2BUQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 992d81ddefed7102182102fdb34dde1f PDF Text Text 1 Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course HIST 465-Spring 2024 Instructor: Dr. Anne S. Rush Interviewer’s name: Lori Zhao Interviewee’s name: Jiwu (George) Chen Narrator’s Country of Origin: China Narrator’s Current Residence: Ellicott City, Howard County, MD, U.S.A. Date of Interview: March 24, 2024 Place of Interview: Ellicott City, Howard County, MD, U.S.A. Introduction: This interview between Lori Zhao and George (nickname) Chen, a 61-year-old Chinese immigrant, explores George’s experience as a Chinese immigrant in the U.S. George was born in Tianjin, China, growing up under socialist China. As he grew up, China’s economic and political policy begin changing, which impacts George’s career opportunities and trajectories. George’s interview discusses differences between life in the U.S. and China, his educational background during China’s transitional period, and the different career trajectories taken during his life. Through the interview, we see that throughout George’s life, he has been continuously inspired by and embraces the freedoms that led him to make life-altering choices, following what he has wanted since childhood. Keywords: China, student, socialism, government, education, freedom, business Zhao: Hello, um-my name is Lori Zhao. Today is March 24th, 2024, and I'm here with Jiwu Chen. We are conducting an oral history interview at his home in Ellicott City. So, just to get started with some easy introduction questions, how are you today? Chen: Good. Zhao: Yes. Chen: It's a beautiful Sunday. Zhao: Yes. I did forget to add this is also my father. His legal name is Jiwu Chen, but his nickname is George. Chen: Yeah. �2 Zhao: Umm. Yeah, so you were just in China, like earlier this week, right? Chen: Yeah, I came back on March the twelve, like two weeks ago. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Okay. How was the trip? Chen: Very good. It's my first trip this year. I had the same trip-uh, same kind of trip three times last year. I'm leaving for China again for Canton Fair on April the 17th. Zhao: Oh, okay. And you said that your son Daniel is going with you this time, right? Chen: Yeah, yeah. Zhao: Yeah. So when you go, are you just going to Canton in Guangzhou or other places? Chen: Canton is for business. It's a business trip, basically. The biggest trade show is in Canton. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: We will stay there for a week. And from there, maybe we uh, go different route. Daniel will go. He likes to see Shanghai, tour China, s-part of it. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Me, I may go to continue with my business trip to some factories. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Is Daniel going to be traveling by himself or are you traveling with him? Chen: Most part of the trip, he will stay with me. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. And so for business, can you tell me a bit about the business that you do? Chen: Yeah. I'm in the wholesale dis-uh, distribution business. In fact, we import merchandise from China. Ah-we wholesale them here to the…gift shops, momma and poppa store, and garden centers, and gift shops and some big, ke-key chain stores like TJ Maxx, Home Goods, these kinds of things. �3 Zhao: Yeah. It sounds like your company should be very well known then. (Chuckles) Chen: Yeah. (both chuckle) Part of it. Zhao: Okay. Um, can you tell me your date of birth? Chen: Mm-hmm. I was born in 1962. Ah…I was born on October thirtieth, 1962. Zhao: Okay. Ah, what can you tell me about where you grew up? Chen: Yeah. The age where I was born was the communist China, 1960s, 70s up ‘till the late 1980s before China opened the door to the outside world. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: So, we're basically a very conservative kind of communist country, yeah, (Zhao: Okay) under communist China. Zhao: Yeah. And in China, where did you live? Can you describe the area or the community that you grew up in? Chen: I was born in the country, the-a village. Uh, it's about a hundred miles away from Beijing, the capital of China. And, uh, the living condition is pretty, I mean, backward compared with now, you know, 1960s communist China, you can imagine. But everything is okay. So we uh, live from hand to mouth, work for the, we call it brigade or the community. Uh, it's under communist, uh, rule (Zhao: Mm-hmm) and everybody has his own share and uh, very much ah, we lived happy, happy life. Yeah. Zhao: So, it sounds like collectivized agriculture almost, where it's like you-every co- every person in the community, I'm guessing, has like their own little patch of land. And that is what you use for your... Chen: Yeah, (Zhao: Okay) It's kind of uh, uh, everything is given: your share, your income through the community leaders. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: So, the community leaders, they chosen by the entire community and under communist rule. So, it's like, kind of utopia. It sounds kind of utopian. Zhao: That sounds amazing. (Laughs) Chen: Yeah, it sounds rea-but, uh. Yeah, you work, you do what you can. And then for me, my age, you know, from baby and then grew up and then kids in school are free up till I got my elementary, middle school, high school, everything is free. Uh, in Medicare, we don't really have kind of Medicare, but we don't really need medicine, uh-not kind of medicine. And (Zhao: Mmm, okay) so basically, the life is simple and uh, simple, easy. Yeah. �4 Zhao: And can you clarify really quickly? You said this is roughly one hundred miles outside Beijing. Chen: Mm-hmm. Zhao: Which province? Chen: Yeah, in Tianjin. Zhao: Tianjin? Okay. Chen: Tianjin is a…is a big city. Yeah it’s (Zhao: Mm-hmm) about- the city is like-uh… 40 miles away from Beijing. And we are under the municipal city of Tianjin, big Tianjin. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: And we are living in a small village. Zhao: Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. So, what did a day in your life as a child look like? This can be when you were younger, middle school, high school. Chen: What do you mean day? Zhao: Like uh, how would your entire day look from when you wake up, you know, breakfast until you go to bed? Chen: Yeah, I was born in traditional family, you know. Uh, my mom cooked the breakfast, you know, when I was a kid, since I could remember something. And that's from the school age, you know, mom cooked the breakfast and dad left to work. And then out of breakfast, we go to school. It's a public school, and uh, everything is so simple. And school, basically, we don't have like first year, second year-grades, first grade, second grade. We have one classroom which is the size of, uh, let's say three hundred feet, square feet. And we have maybe two different grade merged in one class, in one classroom, and some classes, maybe classroom, has three grades merged. But uh, yeah. Zhao: So how many kids were in a grade? Chen: Uh… Zhao: Was there like a few hundred? Chen: No, not that much. We-our village has total population of five hundred to six hundred people. Zhao: Ohhh. Chen: So, we have let's say from grade one, second grade, third grade, fourth grade, and fifth grade, that's elementary school. It's around twenty, thirty kids for each grade. Zhao: Ohhh, okay okay. �5 Chen: Yeah, but in Chinese classroom is big, big! I mean, the room is not big, but the capacity is big. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: They can pack as much as they can. So, we don't have enough teachers. The teachers are all chosen from the local farmer, which had a certain kind of education level. (Zhao: Ahh) They can teach, suppose, one plus one, two plus two. As long as they know this, they can teach this. (Both laugh) Zhao: So, when-speaking of your teachers, because of the Cultural Revolution, (Chen: Mmhmm) your teachers are farmers, right? Was there anything that you remember being taught as a kid specifically? Or anything that stands out to you, by any chance? Chen: Yeah, we-I mean, as a memory, it was sweet, you know, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) really. You enjoy everything free and no pressure. Like, like nowadays, (Zhao: Mmm yeah) you have everywhere in the world, you have financial pressure or situation, everything. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) Those years, everything, life is simple. You know? You go to school and the pencil can last a couple of months, not like now. Nowadays, kids may have ten, twenty pencils and you can see pencils everywhere. And so…we don't have money. But…then…the life we have is very, I can say, we live in a very affluent abundancy. Zhao: Mmm, okay. Chen: You know? Because you have no need for anything luxury or anything more than…more than what you…(Zhao: Right) what are your basic needs. You know? Zhao: So, when you were living there, were you aware of what life was like in Beijing? Chen: Uh-yeah! (Zhao: So, did you-) That's the, that’s the kind of dream. You know, Beijing beverybody knows big city. (Zhao: Mmm) In big cities, then you have better life. And, uh, so government pays more. And poor farmers, you know, you don't have that much kind of uh…life standard. Zhao: Right, right. Chen: You know, life standard is different compared the urban area (Zhao: Mm-hmm) and the rural area. Zhao: Okay, I see. Chen: Complete difference. Zhao: Yeah. So, uhm, now going to your family, do you remember hearing stories from your parents or grandparents describing their lives? �6 Chen: Uh, yeah, they told about something about their back- their kids, their life, which is in the Qing Dynasty. (Both laugh) Zhao: Yeah. Chen: So- and my father, in fact, talk about uh, his experience in, in fighting Japanese, we call it the anti-Japanese War. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: It’s a eight-year war when China was involved fighting the Second World War. It’s before the exact Second World War, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) you know, in the late 1930s. Yeah, what happened to him. And my mom, simple, also ah…from a farm-farmer's family, (Zhao: Mmhmm) and then married early at the age of uh, 16, 17 years old, got married. Zhao: Oh. Goodness. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Did your father have any stories from the wars that you remember? Chen: Yeah, my father always told me, you know…Ah, he has to leave because the Japanese, they have machine gun. Zhao: Oh. (Chuckles) Chen: (Chuckles a bit) And my father has, their unit, only have bricks! They had to throw bricks to the Japanese soldier, and then run. So, there's no way to survive there. So, then my father, my mother always complained, “you see, your dad quit again and again.” And I have two other uncles, they fought to the end, and then they became high…government officials. (Zhao: Mmhmm) But then my father would say, “oh, if I stayed there, I might have been killed!” (Zhao laughs) you know? (both laugh) Zhao: Yeah. Chen: “Fortunately, I quit. So that's why I survived.” Yeah. Zhao: Right. In the end, your uncles got lucky, really. ‘Cuz what were the odds. Chen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they became uh, at the state governor level, yeah (Zhao: Mm-hmm) where all the top uh…government officials, the local government. Zhao: Yeah. When you were younger, did you feel any, like, bitterness or resentment toward your father for leaving? Since you…(mumbles) �7 Chen: No (Zhao: Okay) no, because you don't have any expectation, you don’t have much expectation. You don't know what the outside world is. Zhao: Mmm. Chen: So, you have food, you're happy. And sometimes food is simple. You may complain about it to the mom, but everybody else is the same, you know? We have neighboring kids, everybody, we just play. Yeah. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. And did you grow up with any siblings? Chen: Mm-hmm. I have three older brothers, elder brothers. But my eldest brother left the family to work in a mine, coal mine, at the age of thirteen. Zhao: Wow Chen: And then my second brother left the home, joined the army from uh, middle school. So that's early, (Zhao: Wow) very early. And then he came, he been back five years later, he served in the service for five years. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: And then he became a university student. And my third brother, ten years older than me, worked as a farmer. You know. Zhao: Oh, okay. Chen: And uh, that's my family. But basically, I stayed, my sib-the only sibling I stayed with is my third elder brother. So, so as a farmer, because the other two brothers already left the family a long time ago. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Okay. So then, when you were growing up, it was really like your mother, father, uh, third brother. Chen: Yeah, third brother me. Zhao: And then you. Chen: Yeah, me. Zhao: Okay. �8 Chen: And my third brother is ten years age, so basically he went to work every day as a farmer, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) do farming job. And me, is like single kid. So, playing with the neighboring kids. Zhao: Oh, okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Do you have any recollections or memories of playing with the neighbors? Chen: Yeah, yeah. I can say I have a very happy childhood. Yeah, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) yeah. We play, yeah. Enjoy the life, yeah. Zhao: Okay. Chen: We uh, you know, catch birds. (Zhao suppresses laugh, Chen chuckles) Yeah. And then, catch fishes, fish. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah, okay. So, moving on, as you were growing up, uh, I believe you went to university after finishing your primary education, correct? Chen: Yeah. Yeah, I finished the high school. At the time when I was in high school, China already started…opening to the outside world. So, we see, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) in fact, I'm at the second year or third year of high schooler who had, had the chance to get into the nationwide college entrance examination. Before that, we don't have college entrance examination, (Zhao: oh wow, yeah) even though there were Chinese, there were colleges and universities, but no test needed. Basically, the local government officials…they referred to some kids, then they can get to the college (Zhao: Mm-hmm) without a test. Yeah, that's how my second brother got into the Hebei University, which is a state university. It's like Maryland State University. Zhao: Okay. So then when you were applying for university, you had to take the college entrance exams? Chen: Yeah, yeah. It's a fortunateZhao: -Is it the gao kao as well?1 Chen: Yeah, we call it the college entrance examination, yeah. Zhao: Okay. 1 Interviewer’s note: the gao kao is China’s national undergraduate admission examination. �9 Chen: So, it's, it’s ah, it’s fortunate I had the chance to get into the test. And- unfot- it’s unfortunate thing(since?) I had to work hard to pass the test. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah, how difficult was it? Chen: Yeah, difficult uh, it’s the enrollment rate. The-I mean, the percentage of college, uh entrance is only three percent by the year. Zhao: Wow. Chen: By the year I graduated from high school. Yeah. Zhao: Oh, wow. Chen: So, it's rare, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) three percent nationwide. So, it’sZhao: And what's the university? Chen: Yeah. I got into a teacher's college, which means after graduate, I'll be a teacher. I’ll be a teacher. So I stay out there for two years and after graduate, I became a teacher. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah, this is my first uh, college education. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: And so, when you were, to my knowledge, when um, Chinese students take the gaokao, (Chen: Mm-hmm) based on their scores, that determines what they end up studying, right? Chen: Yeah. Score is the only standard. That's it. They don't look at anything else. Even now, still the same. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: So, were you always interested in being a teacher? Chen: Ahh, no. Not that. Because the social, uh…socially the teacher has the least pay. And at the bottom of the society so those years, 1980s, (Zhao: Ah, yeah) that's why, yeah, I made up my mind trying to get out to quit the job, like my father quit the army, (both laugh) to get out to the job. �10 Zhao: Yeah. Chen: And then, but-fortunately I got another chance to get into the Beijing University of Foreign Studies. (Zhao: Mmm) So that's my second college, ah, second college in-in my life. Yeah. And from there, I got my bachelor degree, get my, uh, bachelor degree of English Literature. Zhao: Okay. And mmm, around what year did you get your bachelor's degree in literature? Chen: That was in ni-1989. (Zhao chuckles) Where, that's the same year where the Tiananmen Square event occurred. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Or we call it here, Tiananmen Massacre. Yeah. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so are you saying that you were an undergraduate student getting your bachelor's in 1989? Chen: Mm-hmm. Zhao: Okay. Uhm, what was it like going to university with that going on? Since you were there at, I believe, some of the protests, right? Chen: Yeah, yeah. I was one of them. Yeah. All college kids, no exceptions for everyone. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: So, yeah. Zhao: Yeah. But how has the event impacted your life? Chen: Very deep. Now, first off, we see what is real, what did people pursue, you know? Democracy, freedom, and people…sacrificed their lives for that. And…but then, the government, they crushed it. SoZhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Uh, It's a question of did their deaths worth it for young kids, young people? And the other thing is, ever since then, China is back to, back to normal, back to the previous communism again. Ah-you know, tyranny, still the same kind of uh, communist (Zhao: Right) government. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: So, nothing changed, even worse, you know? (Zhao addresses dog and mumbles Hi Milky) �11 Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah, I see. And you mentioned that, so when studying English literature, what was your curriculum? Are there- like what did you read? What were they teaching you in university? Chen: Yeah. Ah, we uh- basically, language. The language has wide range of subjects. First of all, language, l-listening, reading, reading comprehension, you know, writing. And then literature, you had to read lots of books, uh, British, English books, and then from America, all the English-speaking countries, and then history, and ah society, or we call it social studies. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Yeah. And then also kind of translation things. Yeah. Zhao: Okay. And so, since you got into the foreign studies school, um, how many languages did they have you learn? What is the school preparing you for? Chen: Yeah, we, as uh, as uh foreign language is our major, you have to get another language, a second foreign language, as ah, kind of ah, to be qualified to graduate. So, my second foreign language is French. The FrenchZhao: What's the first one? Chen: The first is English. (Zhao chuckles) Chen: English is the major, yeah. Zhao: Okay. And I'm guessing that you take classes in French as well? Chen: Yeah. Okay. Zhao: Okay. Now, the people in your program, and you included, what did you end up doing after you got your bachelor's degree? Chen: Then ah, I became ah- back to my original school again, because of the government rule. So, after work two more years as a high school teacher again, so I tried to get into the ah, graduate school (Zhao: mkay) to further my studies. So, I realized that's the only way to change my life completely (Zhao: Mmm, so how-) instead of being a high school teacher or, or in, in this job. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah. �12 Zhao: Yeah, so can you tell me about how you got to graduate school and where you went from there? Chen: Again, the national test. So, we have a nationwide of six percent of uh, enrollment uhh for the- for that year, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) but I got to the six percent. So, I got, fortunately, into the uh, graduate school, which is two years of study, and my major was comparative studies between East and West and translation. Zhao: Okay, and what university were you in? Chen: It's called, it’s the Beijing University of International Relations. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. And um, do you have anything that that is memorable, like sticks out to you about your time in graduate school? Or any like fond memories that you look back on? Chen: Yeah, yeah. We have six people in one class. The professor is fun… Um, he ah, you can hear his laugh, laughter from long, from further away, yeah… He uh, had his education, college education, here in America. And ah, (Zhao: Ooh) he was those years, when he was my professor, he was almost seventy years old. So, he, uh, (Zhao: Wow), his father, his father-inlaw, his wife's father was the, uh, Secretary of the…Secretary of the Textile Department of the Guomindang government, (Zhao: mmm) so then they can afford sending him to (Zhao: Right) America to study. Oh, yeah. And then heZhao: and he was employed at Beijing? Chen: Yeah, Beijing, yeah. Zhao: Okay. Were there any like views that he might have shared during his classes? Chen: Yeah…He- uh, his ah, his major is in the Chinese culture. You know, we have Daoism, Confucius, you know (Zhao: Mm-hmm) and how what he teaches is the difference of Chinese culture and Western culture, and also the interpretation or translation of all these Chinese, ancient Chinese books, like Daoism, yeah, (Zhao: Yeah) to translate into the English, yeah. Zhao: Okay, so you've had to translate some works as well? Chen: Yeah. Zhao: For practice? Chen: Mm-hmm (makes sound in agreement) �13 Zhao: Okay. Um, what were some differences between your undergraduate and graduate experience? Chen: It's a further, it's a big step forward. I mean, more advanced and more further study into both cultures, the Western cultures and Chinese cultures. So, we really, even we grew up in China, but at the time when I, before I finished high school, we’re basically in the communist China. So, then in my high school, the end of my high school year, China started open to the outside world. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: So. What we, the education we had as kids, is basically communism, Marxism, Lenin, the previous Soviet Union style, this kind of thing. So we don't really know anything about Chinese, ancient culture, which is a precious thing. The Chinese culture, we don't know, because Mao, as the president of the first new, first president of new China. So basically he hates all the ancient Chinese culture, (Zhao: yeah) so we don't have any contact or any channel to get into the real Chinese culture at all until (Zhao: Ohhh) I get into this graduate program. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Then I know, oh, we have our own philosophy, Chinese culture, Chinese philosophy compared to the Western one, yeah. It's the same age, two thousand years ago, Confucius and Daoism and Dao. Zhao: Yeah. Do you think you can give an example of some of the differences between Chinese culture and Western culture, or even U.S. culture? Chen: Erh, mmm… Zhao: Or what were some of the main, uh, let's say like, world views that were used…? Chen: To be more specific, be more specific. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Yeah. The U.S. history is very short. You cannot search U.S. culture or history by comparing with China, basically two-five thousand years of uh, history. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: So, only U.S. only has modern, contemporary history, all kinds of philosophy, you know? Zhao: Right. Chen: China has…has uh, you know, uh, deep, uh, and uh…rich history and culture (Zhao: Yeah) from two thousand years ago, yeah. Zhao: Yeah, so just to clarify, when you were growing up, they didn't teach like Confucius values, Confucian values? �14 Chen: Uh, Before high school? Or… Zhao: Yeah, before high school? Chen: Yeah. Zhao: They didn’t? Chen: We didn't, we didn’t. Zhao: Okay. And then after hag-high school, you started learning? Chen: Yeah, after that age, China started open to China. So, (Zhao: Okay) people can see right now the kids in school, in Chinese high school, even still with communist rule, they have part of classes eh, introducing Chinese culture and Chinese history, you know? Zhao: Mmm, okay. Yeah. So, after you finished your graduate degree, where did you go and what did you end up doing? Chen: Then I went to work for a private company in a island, it's called Hainan Island, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) and, when I was in my graduate school, the Hainan was just started to be hot land for investment and foreign uh, investment and these joint ventures. So, I decided, instead of working for the government anymore, to explore my own career in this private land (Zhao: Mm-hmm) with more freedom, so that's where I intended to go. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: And I did go there (Zhao: Mm-hmm) for a couple more years, yeah. Zhao: And it sounds like your educational background led you to kind of be more interested in the private enterprise? Chen: Yep, the uh… the job basically, the career has nothing to do with what we learn, you know. Zhao: Right Chen: Yeah- based on my major, I should work for the government and I should work in the field where I can use my uh, my education, that's the English as tool, as language tool, but I didn't like that to be as a government employee working for government anymore, so that's why. But then, I work, when you work for the comp- for the corporate company, which is completely different because you don't have anything you are good at, to work at a private company, so you have to start from the very beginning. Zhao: Ohhh, okay. Chen: Yeah. �15 Zhao: And your, your classmates when you were in graduate school, they ended up working for the government? Chen: Yeah, most of them, 99% uh, go to the government Zhao: What type of jobs? Chen: Yeah so we, (Zhao: In the government…) you can go to the foreign ministry or uh, any joint ventures a government uh…government organizations which are related to foreign of anything with foreign affairs, yeah. (Zhao: Okay so-) And they got pretty good job, pretty good pay. Zhao: Yeah Chen: Yeah. Zhao: So, it sounds like diplomacy or even like embassy workChen: Yeah, diplo, that’s why I came to here, some my friends, some of my classmates were in Chinese Embassy. Zhao: Ohh, okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. So, uhm, now when you were in Hainan, can you tell me a bit more about this company you worked for and what that was like? Chen: Ah, first of all, I work in the real-realtor real estate company; we developed land and build-buildings and uh, that was short experience. I work as a secretary, basically, to write some articles for the general manager (Zhao: Mm-hmm) or as a generous (general) manager secretary, write something and uh… to dispose the local government officials’ bad behavior, this kind of thing (Zhao giggles) so thatZhao: So, it’s like a journalist, almost. Chen: Yeah, so that this kind of (Zhao: Okay) this general manager can convince his case against government, it's like this. And then, eh, I tried…I changed a different job, which is working in the security, uh, stock market company, to work in their security department. It’s not a security guard but working in trying to get the company into…from private company to become a public company. Zhao: Ohhh, okay. Chen: Yeah, it's kind of a, public, uh…what's that, public relations department. Zhao: Mmm, okay, (Chen: Mm-hmm) I see. And yeah, so how long were you living in Hainan for? �16 Chen: Two years. Zhao: Two years? Chen: Yeah, two years and after that, I got the chance to get into ah, to move to Guangzhou, Guangdong province, which is where attract- this promise attracted more uhm, foreign investment than anywhere in China, so (Zhao: Yeah) it was so hardZhao: Because of Deng Xiaoping’s policy? Chen: Yeah, Deng Xiaoping’s policy, yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: It was so hard, so then I was-I got the job from-uh referred through friends, get a job from a…American company. They make jewelry in a countryside factory, yeah. Zhao: Okay and uh, the referral was from friends that you had through graduate school? Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Then I got uh, I became a manager of that factory. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Can you tell me a bit more about what it was like working there? Chen: Yeah, we were- we make uh jewelries and imitation jewelries, kind of a decoration things, and the company is located in Long Island ah, New York. Zhao: Oh! okay. Chen: And yeah, they sell to uh…many many customers, thousands of customer here- let’s say Claire's, Icing, (Zhao: Ohhh) all these kids' jewelries, each has over three thousand stores (Zhao: Mm-hmm) and uh, other home decor… thin- home decor companies. So, it's two, two kids, two young guy, they're uh…promising, you know, very hard-working two guys. They set up this factory in the Guangdong area. Zhao: Yeah. And are they (Chen: yeah) uh, Chinese? Chen: Ah, no they're American. Zhao: Okay. �17 Chen: Yeah, they're American yeah and then, (Zhao: Mmm) I basically, my job is to manage the factory for them and get your orders and then, now I use my major translate their orders, in English to Chinese and give it to all different department in the factory to produce, the process the factory, process the order. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: How long did you live in Guangdong for? Chen: I lived, I worked there for five years. Zhao: Okay, wow. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. (Chen: Mm-hmm) And from there, did you have any other jobs? BeforeChen: Ah no, that's it. (Zhao: Okay) That's my most precious experience in life because my major is in language, which is the language as a tool. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) As you manage factory, which is like you own the factory, you have to deal with different departments, different things (Zhao: Right) all sorts of things. The local people basically, they are tough and all workers are young. Young, eighteen year- eighteen to twenty-five years old and you know, we have uh, they have a strike. They went on (Zhao: Ohhh) strike two times a year. (Zhao: Okay) Every year, they would, uh, they have two times strike a year, they don't- they quit job, so then what we do: give them the raise again so everybody come back to factory. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: So, you have to deal with this kind of situation. Zhao: I see. Chen: Yeah. Humanely, this is tough and then uh the other thing is basically these people, workers, they don't have any trained experience (Zhao: Mmm) so you have to train them, uh, discipline them, and teach them how to do- to do a good job to raise to improve the efficiency of their production. Yeah. Zhao: Mmm okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Um, I had a question on this but I forgot… Yeah so it sounds like this is a very big factory, (Chen: Yeah, I-) how many people were there…? Chen: Yeah, at the time I entered the factory, there were only eighty workers. By the time I left the factory, we have thousand workers, which is (Zhao: Oh wow) several big, big �18 buildings,(Zhao: Mm-hmm) yeah. We ship jewelry to America by forty-foot containers (Zhao chuckles) imagine how many jewelry is a bracelet, necklace can forty of the container holds, (Zhao: Yeah) million pieces. Yeah, we have at least one of the containers every month to America. One made- one container’s jewelry. Zhao: Oh, my goodness. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Then your, your two bosses must have made a lot of money? Chen: Yeah, they made money. I made, I work hard for them, so give me a bonus, they gave me a good- good pay in China, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) so I make in U.S. dollars two thousand dollars a month back in the early nineteen-ninties, which is (Zhao: Wowww) which is uh, incredible, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) yeah. Zhao: Yeah, wow. Um, what led you to leave the company? Since after that you immigrated to the U.S., correct? Chen: Yeah. My- I have brother in Virginia, (Zhao: Mkay) so he would like me to help to come here, to help him. He owns newspaper, so then I thought about it, but I thought okay, let me start my own career. And uh, still, I didn't quit until, uh, basically, have some problem with my boss in America here, yeah. Zhao: Mmm, okay. Chen: They promised me year, and after year give me a raise, give me a raise, give me a raise for, but they didn't keep their promise until the outside. Okay, (Zhao: Ohhhh) I have to leave. So then, I had to leave. By the time I leave, he said, “Look we'll give you a big raise, how about a big raise plus bonus?” I said too late (Zhao: laughs) yeah. Then, (Zhao: yeah) I came here with a visitor visa. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Yeah my brother as a sponsor here in Virginia, (Zhao: Right) in the States, yeah help me. Zhao: Yeah. What, what would you consider the most difficult parts about leaving China? Chen: Uh, the biggest difference is here, in America, basically, people live- everybody has their independent life, you know. The house are detached, separate from each other, (Zhao: Mmhmm) except some apartments, but people, they have more uh, private life. In China, we don't really have this kind of ah, privacy. So, uh if you…the half of your life [dog barks] you spend you live in the kind of community [dog barks] everybody is so close to each other [dog barks] and then [dog barks] friends, you [dog barks] know, relatives, family, bonding together. And then to leave this kind of environment, (Zhao: Mmm) and then you came to a different, foreign land, where you don't know anybody else, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) unless in the street with me. Someone you say hi, and that's it. So this is completely different and this is uh, for a stranger to �19 be here, is sad because (Zhao: Ohh) you lost the friendship, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) the family, and you mean…th-the entire environment you had is gone (Zhao: Mmm) and you had to be, to learn to be used to this completely- complete different kind of life. Yeah. Zhao: Oh, okay. And um, what year did you immigrate here? Chen: Ah, 1998. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah, May nine-May thirtieth, 1998. That’s the year I landed here in America, formally. Zhao: So, you were thirty-five? Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Thirty-five, wow. Chen: Mm-hmm. Zhao: That means you already spent basically most- if not yeah- a good portion of your life in China? Chen: It’s thirty-five. Zhao: Yeah, wow. (Laughs) Chen: Yeah. (Chuckles) Zhao: Okay. Chen: Those are the precious thirty-five years it is, young ma- young man, you know? Zhao: Yeah, what did you expect the U.S. to be like, since you even studied a lot about… Chen: Yeah, we, it's uh…We didn't, I didn't expect it that much, so basically I don't feel big difference because we know something, what's American life is like. Yeah. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) So, uh, still, you feel detached, you feel, uh, not so, uh, easily, uh, fit into the life here. Yeah. Zhao: How did you handle that? Yeah, it's just, uh, uh…you know, now I'm Christian. I know the way, I can pray. Those years, yeah, I- I wasn't Christian yet, not bapt-chris- I don't know anything about Christi- Christianity. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) So, as a Chinese, yeah, none of us. So then you have to try to…with your own self-discipline or self-control, (Zhao: Mmm) you know? Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Yeah. Try to overcome these kind of uh, difficulties, yeah. �20 Zhao: Yeah. Yeah. So, where were you living? Chen: Yeah, in, uh, Fairfax, Virginia. Zhao: Yeah. Were you living with your brother? Chen: The first ah, two years I live my brother. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: And youChen: And after I, uh, uh. I started dating a girl, my wife, so then I moved out, and rent an apartment in Fairfax. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. And at that time, were you working um, for your brother's newspaper? Chen: A little bit. A little bit because (Zhao: Okay) I'm not, you know, uh, had any knowledge of journalism at all. Zhao: Mmm, right. Chen: So, I help him a little bit deliver newspaper things, helped him uh, go with him to all different parties, trying to learn something. But I don't feel like I can get into his world, (Zhao: mmm) which is a world with all these kind of politicians, a lot, you know. Zhao: Right. Chen: Because I was in the business circle in China, business people have different behavior or different custom compared with politicians. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) It's different way. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: And can you tell me a bit more about his newspaper? Chen: Yeah. His newspaper is called Asian Fortune and serving all the Asian communities. Yeah. The majority of his readers are these uh, Korean immigrants, people from Vietnam, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) and some Chinese. And Northern Virginia has a big population of Asian minorities, Asian people. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) So Asian minority is big, yeah big people. Big �21 population. (Zhao: Oh okay, yeah) So then he has a lot of these readers from these countries. Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: So, who support his business. And uh, the newspaper basically has the- got the income only from the commercial, you know. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Mm. Zhao: And the politicians that he was meeting with, they were everyone, right? Chen: Everywhere. Zhao: D.C.? Chen: Yeah, D.C. area, all the political circle, c-congressmen, senators, you know. Zhao: Mmm. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: AllZhao: Did you feel special, or like V.I.P., when you were at (chuckles) the U.S.? Chen: No, I don't feel that at all. (Zhao: Okay) I feel very embarrassed because, (Zhao: Ohh) you know, when you have business, when you're in business, you don't have kind of ah, so much behavior problem that much. People say hi, you know, eat, drink, that's it. And then, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) in this, with the politicians, oh, you have to talk, chat, talk, uh…with them. Zhao: There's a way to talk. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: And then, and then ah table, dining manners, a lot of things, you know. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: I'm really cannot fit into this kind of circle. That's why I decided, oh, this is, this is different world. It's not, I can never get-get into the world. Zhao: Okay. �22 Chen: And then I try and persuade my brother into letting me go, to picking up my old business, which is trading. Ah, yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Yeah so, can you tell me a bit more about this business you started? Chen: When I was in China, even was working for the American boss, I, I go to some trade shows in China, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) searching for some suppliers, different things. (Zhao: Mmm, okay) And from there I, I became acquainted with many of the suppliers. And then we started, not just making our own factory, but also buy from the suppliers and send, ship them to America. So, my ah, American company, they are also im-importing things from them. So, I work as (Zhao: Mmm) a- as their agent in some way. So then when I came here, ah, when I decided to pick up this business again, I called all these big supplier, old suppliers' friends, see if they can support me. And some of them said, yes, sure, definitely. You can, if we can work over there, we will sell you, to you, and you sell in America yourself. I said, okay. That's how I started with the business. Zhao: Ohh, okay. Chen: And, uh. Uh. Zhao: What year was that? Chen: Yeah, that was in nineteen, uh, nine- in 2000. Zhao: 2000? Chen: 2000, two years after I came to the country. So, I started with the candle line, because (Zhao: Mm-hmm) I had a contact with a candle manufacturer in Shanghai. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) So then he was my only supplier of merchandise, uh, when I started the business. (Zhao: Mmhmm) So I tried the candle. Yeah. Zhao: Okay. And how do things go from the candle? Chen: Yes. Zhao: So, at this point, you have a business, you have a girlfriend, and you're living on your own. Chen: Not exactly, it's tough. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Life is tough. You know, you don't have customers at the very beginning. You have to do trade shows, after trade shows. (Zhao: Mm) And me alone, single, fine. (Zhao: Mmm)Yeah. And then a couple years later, when I come, uh, with, uh, get married, my wife. Then fa-family. It's tough to travel. And then, but to support the family at the same time so the business was tiny. (Zhao: Okay) And because it takes years to build up the customer base. �23 Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: So how much, can you estimate, like how much were you grossing every year? Chen: Yeah. We, uh, let's say first year, maybe one hundred thousand dollars. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: And then second year, three hundred, two hundred. The first few years I came into, let's say 300k a year, which is basicallyZhao: -That doesn't cover your expenses. Chen: Yeah, 300k, you can live from hand to mouth. Yeah, many months, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) phone company connected the phone could disconnect the phone because you cannot afford paying the phone bill. Zhao: Mmm. Chen: Yeah. They can let you pass one month, but second month, if you don't pay then they will disconnect (Zhao: right) your phone. Yeah, but that's the life. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Yeah, it's tough. You have to work hard, yeah. Hard work hard to do trade shows after trade shows, try to build up to get some more customers and selling more merchandise. (Zhao: Yeah) Yeah, it's ah…it's so tough, but then we made it, you know? Three years of hard work, I have family, I have my my first daughter, Lori, and then my son, second, my second kid, son Daniel (Zhao: Mm-hmm) and then business getting better and better. And then, I became a Christian. Uh, ten years after I came to the country, yeah. Zhao: Okay, yeah. Chen: Mm. Zhao: Um, wow, that's, that’s a lot. Um, when you went to these trade shows, they were- where were they? And ehChen: Ah- those years, I mean 1990s, or the first uh, beginning of the twenty, of the 2000, ah, there are trade shows everywhere. The business (Zhao: Mm-hmm) was completely different because there were no Amazon, there are no online business. The Walmart, even Walmart, was not that many, only (Zhao: mmm) probably… Walmart just started from three hundred Walmart in the nationwide, and to one-thousand. So then, by the end of the century, ah, Walmart boomed business, (Zhao: yeah) so they are everywhere, and they killed many, many mama and papa gift shops. (Zhao: Mm) So I can say, forty percent, fifty percent of the gift shops closed (Zhao: Mm- �24 hmm) because the competition with Walmart. Walmart came into being and then, online business came to being, Ama- the uh, eBay. And uhZhao: Right. This the mid-2000s? Chen: Yeah, (Zhao: okay) 2000, beginning of 2000. And then the toy business, the game, became to be booming also, like Toys “R” Us closed, you know, because online competition. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: So then, ah, they killed another twenty, thirty percent of the business. Then, finally, Amazon came into being. Amazon killed another twenty-thirty percent of it. So, uh, from nowadays, which is 2024-2023, compared with twenty-thirty years ago, eighty percent of the business were gone. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) So survived only twenty percent. This twenty percent business survived. I mean the small business in retail business survived. Zhao: Mm. So, it sounds like, would you say that the industry you're in is like a dying industry if everyone's leaving? Chen: What do you mean? Zhao: Like, you're saying that after, you know, the-these large monopolies come in, twentythirty percent of all these mom and pop small businesses are closing. So, do you think that your industry, the wholesale industry, specifically with like um, import-export…is? Chen: Yeah, the wholesale business also shrink. They will follow the suite, the same. It happened the same with the wholesalers. But I'm a wholesaler. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) So what happened, the same. Eighty percent of wholesalers gone. (Zhao: Ohhh) Deleted. Then only twenty percent people left. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) So I, fortunately, ah, praise the Lord, became a survivor. Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. And to my knowledge, a lot of these companies now they buy directly from the manufacturer. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: They don't go through a middleman like you. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Okay. I see. Yeah. Um. Yeah so, you are an American citizen, yes? Chen: Yes! (Zhao: Yeah) Yes I am. Yeah, been American citizen back in, ah, 2010. Zhao: Okay Chen: 2010, yeah. �25 Zhao: Yeah (Chen: Mm-hmm) and…how do you feel about the U.S.? Or how do you feel about being, let's say, like an American? Chen: Mmm I feel good! I feel great, yeah. The American is basically, this is a country of freedom, a country of ah, democracy. I mean, it's not just politically. I mean in (Zhao: Right) real life, we feel that. Me, as an educated person uh, from the communist country, (Zhao: mm, right) I feel this, uh, the big difference of living in this country compared with what life herethere in China. You know, in any other world, in other similar country, you know. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Can you give an example of that? Chen: Yes. Let's say the uh, to take freedom for example. So, when we here, we don't really cherish the word freedom that much. Let’s say (Zhao: Mm-hmm) some of my workers they, they were born here, and you know none of them showed any appreciation of this at all. But, I talked to them is, when I talked to them I see, you see, you don't feel this. But, if you are in a different kind of uh, country, a different system, you don't have this kind of freedom at all. Zhao: What freedom are you talking… Chen: And you don't have your own right. So basically, your right is given…by the government, and you can do some thing and some thing you cannot do. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: So, as an individual or citizen in a society, part of your rights is removed. So that's the sad thing (Zhao: Yeah), you know. That's the big difference. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Right? Zhao: Right. So that's like freedom of speech? Chen: Yeah. Zhao: And, okay. Yeah. And since you mentioned your family, um, who are the members of your family and you can- can you tell me more about your family, what does it look like? Chen: Yeah, my mom and dad, they passed away. Uh, my father passed away when I was in high school, and my mom passed away when I came to- uh, like ten years after they came to this country. And so, we had a fam-happy family. Very traditional, mom, dad, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) you know. Mom cooked the food, three meals a day, and father left for work, joined the uh, communist community, work every day as a farmer. (Zhao: Mm) And then at the end of the year, we got our lot by the community, let's say ten dollars, twenty dollars a year as the pay, as �26 the income, we can buy something, and the uh, the food is basically free, because you got your shares. (Zhao: Yeah) Corn, rice, (Zhao: Ohh, yeah) everything is free, you got your shares, and that's enough for you to ah, support the entire family. (Zhao: okay) You don't have anything, you know, uh, beyond all these basic needs, luxuries, no. Yeah. Zhao: Mm- that sounds like the complete opposite of what it looked like for you to build a family in the U.S.? Chen: Uh-yeah. So that's a completely (Zhao: Yeah) different society. That was old, you know, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) even now China, after they open to the world, our world, since years, years in development, now it's the same, almost the same as America now. So, the life is the same. Yeah. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) People live under all sorts of pressures, yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Yeah, what about, uh, you mentioned that you have a wife and kids. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Can you tell me more about your family here? Chen: Yeah, here, we have another happy family. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: My-me, I have four kids, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) two daughters, two sons. And ah…there are problems here, because this is a country of freedom, so, uh, the way to teach them is different from China, but (Zhao: Mm-hmm) we have a traditional idea of how to teach the kids. We would like to, uh, Chinese way, you know. Zhao: Yeah. So, what wereChen: It's very demanding. You had to follow me, you had to follow parents' instruction, otherwise we beat you, okay, or whatever, but that doesn't work. We found (Zhao: uh-huh) this is, uh, it doesn't work that way, (chuckles) yeah. Zhao: Yeah. So then if, what would you- which Chinese traditions and customs have you brought to the U.S. with you? So maybe not the authoritarian government, like I will force you to do what, you know, I say, but what about, like, maybe some Confucian values, like respect for the elderly? Chen: Yeah, yeah. ThisZhao: What else is there? Chen: Yeah, the Confucian value, I found later, is basically the-almost in nature, same as Christianity, you know. Love, love within families, and love within the community. So that's what Confucius promoted 2,000 years ago in China, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) but during the communism, we got rid of love. Got rid of this word completely. We don't have this world in our �27 textbook, or in our life. People only live in family, inside one family, you know. You have affection, uh, feeling about each other, but that word is never spoken out, (Zhao: Mmm) under communist society. But now, eh, in China, it's the same. Because everything is open to the outside world. So that's the difference, the big difference. And uh, that's the culture, the old culture we learned from China, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) and I think we should keep anywhere we go. Zhao: Mmm, okay. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Um, are there any, like, Chinese traditions that you pass on? Like any holidays that you continue to celebrate here? Chen: Yeah, we still have Chinese New Year, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) and we also have Moon festival, basically, uh, now from a year ago, probably- the Chinese New Year became a public holiday, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) so then we, especially this year, we enjoyed whole family unification, all (Zhao: Yeah) everybody here, under this dining table, celebrate Chinese New Year. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) It's just a simple meal, a chat, but this is the, this is the opportunity for family…to show their love each other, (Zhao: Yeah) to show their care about each other, you know? Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. I would say that it's probably one of, if not the most, like, important gathering (Chen: Yeah) or event in China. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Like…(Zhao unintelligibly trails off) yeah. Chen: Like Christmas or Thanksgiving in America. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: I see. Yeah. Um, what- this is a bit of a more personal question, but what are your dreams and visions for the future? Chen: Mmm. My dream? It’s simple. Back to, as a farmer again. (both laugh) Chen: That's my, (Zhao: Yeah) my kids call me Farmer Chen. Yeah. I brought up as a farmer. Yeah. But then my si- as I told my kids, my, at high school, the year before I graduate from high school, my high school principal had a meeting, made a, made a most influential speech in front of all of us. “So you, would you become father, become a farmer like your father, your �28 grandfather, your father’s father, or you want to change? You want to change and become someone, someone different, living in big cities, have-have a different dream, and have different, different type of life? Yeah. And then, I made that dream came true. Uh, all the way through hard work, and I come to…this country. But at, at this age, I don't really have any ambitious, ambition anymore. What I'm hoping is, my kids, hopefully they can reach their dream through the same kind of hard work I had. Zhao: I see. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Yeah. Yeah, um. Chen: But, it doesn't seem this will work. (Both laugh) Chen: (Laughs) Because they… (More laughter from both) Zhao: Ah-do you think... Chen: Yeah, they have more freedom to (Zhao: Yeah), they have freedom to follow their own way, follow their (Zhao: yeah) own dream. Yeah. Zhao: Right. Because the cos-sacrifice that you made has (Zhao giggles) resulted in (Chen: Mm-hmm, uh yeah) not needing so...to um, work in the same way that you did, when you were younger. Yeah… Um. NowChen: It's basically the personality. It's everybody, everybody created specially. You have your own...by God, your own specialty, special character. (Zhao: Mm-hmm) So, you pursue your own dream, one way or the other, you know. Zhao: Yeah. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Do you think that Christianity has also influenced a lot of how your like, values have changed? Chen: Yeah! Zhao: Okay. Chen: My later ages, I mean, ever since I became Christian, really changed my life, you know. Zhao: Mm-hmm. �29 Chen: Yeah. Changed the way I work, change the way I think, you Know, (Zhao: Mm-hmm) yeah. It is…it is. Zhao: Yeah. Are you an active member of the Christian community? Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Okay. So what does that look like, do you attend a, umChen: A church, yeah. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Church every Sunday, but not that active anymore. At the- like, like the beginning, yeah. Zhao: Uh-huh. (Chen nods and makes sound in agreement) Zhao: Okay. Um, and since now that the interview is closing up a bit, um, is there anything else you would like to tell me before the interview finishes? Chen: Yeah, uh, okay. First of all, thank you for this chance (Zhao: Of course, ah, thank you for your time) for me to express myself, yeah. I would like, you know, my kids, yeah. Uh, when I talked to my son in Hawaii, yeah, I told him, uh, the person who gave me most important uhinstruction in my life is- you, as a high school kids, you should set up your own objective. Once you have the objective, you work towards this objective. Sooner or later, you will reach that target. (Zhao: Mm) So, this is how I told my son, and not to my daughter yet probably, there are some other kids. So, uh, I think life is tough, but you have to work hard, you know? Uh, it all depends on what you want to be, you know. Zhao: Mm-hmm. Chen: Yeah. Zhao: Well then, what would you say for someone that doesn't know what they want to be yet? Chen: Yeah, th-the same. If you don't want to be, want to be- you have no, uh, you don't set up your target, objective yet, then you have to think about it. Will you need one? Yeah. You have to, you have to have something to hold on, to hold on to, so you can have…encouragement, or you absorb encouragement from it to encourage yourself to work toward it. Zhao: Hmm, okay. Chen: Yeah. �30 Zhao: I see. Zhao: And also, always follow Christian values. Yeah. Zhao: Okay. Chen: Mmm. Zhao: Yeah, and…mm, um…I think that's about it. Uh, thank you for your time and participation. Yeah. Chen: Thank you. Zhao: Yeah, this has been very rewarding. Thank you. Chen: Yeah! Thank you, my daughter. (Both laugh) Zhao: Yeah, thank you. Okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lori Zhao Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jiwu (George) Chen Location The location of the interview Ellicott City, Howard County, MD, U.S.A. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jiwu (George) Chen Description An account of the resource This interview between Lori Zhao and George (nickname) Chen, a Chinese immigrant and explores George’s experience as a Chinese immigrant in the U.S. George was born in Tianjin, China, and grew up under socialist China. Throughout his childhood, China’s economic and political policies began to change, which impacted George’s career opportunities and trajectories. George’s interview discusses differences between his experiences in the U.S. and China, his educational background during China’s transitional period, and the different career trajectories he has followed over the course of his life. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lori Zhao Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 24, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio business China education Freedom government journalism Socialism student https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/d3924d8607873d26e337ca2175ce215e.png?Expires=1785369600&Signature=nq0lUQr2-FVfec%7ERzljq541snra30jSp36N13i2zM73krcY2-3sXYEQ6rvRg6ZYkJShg%7EZq2DmfhDv68TdZnWW5fm0Uh-4Nd9Osl9rT-wtbq9aeNVhWO2Q94eOY55O5sqTkVZ-nk87I4124xY5N237Xn7kaxg3NCA8DzIT1zPztY2swmbuQ9fqlYXhLUkSF66cAIGzCs56TfloLvyDpJaFk6FH-HG1sXn68VYBVLTkYQHNrlVQEVRZbvBNqtMAZrLx1hS3SgTX-jV%7Ekzlb9w4wMFmVbprrpAiHmAs917xmOul3yiqtVb08P-dz0op1nVJ5CHpy0iQ-OlFMALeQwV6A__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sydney Black Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Samuel Price (pseudonym) Location The location of the interview College Park, Maryland, Prince George’s County, U.S.A. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Samuel Price (pseudonym) Description An account of the resource This interview between Sydney Black and Samuel Price (pseudonym) explores Price’s path of immigration from Dominica to the United States. Samuel is a graduate student in his mid-30s. In this interview, he shares his experiences living in Dominica, Florida, Trinidad, and Maryland. Price’s interview covers experiences with racism, shifts in identity, racial and ethnic presentation, and open-mindedness. ***This interview (transcript only) is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST465 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sydney Black Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 8, 2024 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Caribbean Dominica friends music race school