1 10 36 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/2911abbe4b8a3dd137ca610b90c78525.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=GjAWbH7SaGrH25a7fw6XrxBdQbdyJB5DcKdQWQCQGRiiBz1rLsCr9at8af7lxGAlqQOZhrIplRn%7E29-ocuVCKjVXV4Igk4znW023FepnlQGl2FhknV5GVX6vrEOIHs5SMN6hMfyn%7EVwxe9jcyNeMvVSCr5BVk92lXk4OSOYZ9UU3OQ2b97CC1INqx12xzf-F1MovwB3DTfO1yYpQTtjaPMKc0AdGOT1ThITZs6KRB9x70z3nvNEsj0LUswz2Vgx0g99Mbe5TavnbvMoRm20Iv0Iee60qEQZtnoqR4Xs%7Ebd25yHFC1JmhC7m3Wf0aPTt2NdQIe88FgnPnDnZ2dBNh3A__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM cefcd371c62b14cf98872b14c7fe3065 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/6145abb0ef4571701ad338961170b8a6.zip?Expires=1779926400&Signature=JCnCYmzXs%7EwJ1Qx8OYBapTPgBqFDewPlyoHYwbgWXo6ID16zm0dLjSlc0hqArOGoWUmmd%7Epsd7EOBoI2J9pFQt8s4AFkdYbwmCcsYL4JqlSN-XCDyw8lzQL%7E6SFkV6JkP4OQtLGZPI%7E25YKwPgBMHW36n1r%7EBvKjQzbwflKfYDJpT8YZFNgzCxZxqqilFx8Eo5zC1oYEW1f7YHF3W1ZSbBCCrPronqpyz3I669ZiEmii03c5dOCltOACOYXR-8%7ET-%7Enf3vMPINJFLYdZqJCK6PKfodDKcSPzHxTj0BYb7JoZ4qDtCPPYooQz922b2vZ2rNsAUV3sMui0lP0bci%7Eg%7Ew__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 741b7e57b84b4ca5c2d6f6113c71a792 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/e0e984dcf15ed157a1aaa82eeb94c5d0.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=QarKEoegQmFbqOCuIYakgq8NhaNk1Xn-ga0qDAkeF%7ExtPO4ZTozJVtnqO%7ENMXHixBAJ3ud-Awjf8H-wCDayKxsoBagZvWVfrsLnJW8MBnCJFdCqHmu5nxgumeUbDK8zQFLXloNXiDtPkZ6e40%7Eti4UEqWvvW0dhY6puan8eLJLeiSPJTH4mbiaJZsi1Ts76d9Jf4KZ59qB%7EcdezYpXLL3fgy8t3%7Ec-75%7E2HdWBwcXc9TmvkZfNb5ZynR1cpn6Zzel95N-nBwcqwfD3TRpRUCIRag223GTtjZjB2epUxL9drDzmLJkulLMdOW9fx5agx%7ElWEiC7A7oCxTimojSPV-fQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 6e78ff158fc2675d7f728fc62bc2f0f6 PDF Text Text Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland HIST 428M – Spring 2021 Instructor: Dr. Anne Rush Interviewer’s name: Shelly Justement Interviewee’s name: Margot Naessan Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Norway Interviewee’s Current Residence: Fairfax, Virginia, Fairfax County, U.S.A. Date of Interview: March 1, 2021 Place of Interview: Rockville, Maryland, Montgomery County, U.S.A. This interview between Shelly Justement and Margot Naessan explores Margot’s life and her immigration to the United States from Norway in 1992. Margot was born in Telemark, Norway in 1967. In this interview, Margot discusses her family and childhood in Norway, her reason for moving to Maryland, her family and career, and her community of Norwegian friends in the United States. Margot’s interview focuses on cultural comparisons between Norway and the United States, and briefly touches on Vietnamese culture from her ex-husband’s family. Margot also discusses the impact that the COVID pandemic has had on her experience as an immigrant in the United States. Keywords: Norway, culture, COVID, Jante, food, language, national costume Shelly: Okay. So, uh I'm here with Margot Naessan. Um, I'm Shelly Justement. And it is March 1, 2021, and Margo is in Northern Virginia. So, what can you tell me about what your childhood in Norway was like? Margot: What it was like? Shelly: Mm-hm. Margot: Uh it was great. I have four siblings, um and we're a tight-knit family, so we were outside playing a lot, no video games at that time. One channel on TV. Um it was, we were just outside a lot, a lot of uh walks and hikes and skiing and very active. Shelly: Okay. Margot: Yeah. Shelly: Um so, you mentioned your siblings. Do you want to talk a little bit about your family? Margot: Yes. I love my family. [Laughs] Um yes, so I'm the oldest of five siblings. I have two sisters that are one and two years younger than me. And then I have a brother that is five years younger, and then another one that's nine years younger. Um and so, were [sighs] growing up, my brothers were very close, um and they were sort of younger, and uh I don't know. So, the— the sisters were staying together, and the brothers were staying together. Now, we all have, uh we communicate almost well, I'd say daily. My—one of my brothers is in Australia, so I talk to �him every week and the others I chat with uh daily, I would say. And so yeah, we keep in touch. And um uh my, let's see, let’s see what else? Hmm I don't know. We're—we're very close. Shelly: That's good. Um, so since your brother lives in Australia, do the rest of your siblings live in Norway, or in the US? Margot: Uh well, so my, all my siblings live in Norway, except for my one brother, and they're all living fairly close to each other over there, so they—but now thanks to COVID they don't see each other a whole lot. Actually. Not at all. Um but they are within uh 15, 20 minutes of each other, all of them. Yeah. Shelly: Um, so when you were younger and going to school in Norway, um sort of what was— what was school like? And um yeah, what was school like? Margot: Um, well, I—we moved a lot around. Um and so when I was—I started elementary school uh we were in this tiny mountain community uh up in the north, well, not all the way up north, but like, closer to the north than the south, uh of Norway. Um and it was very few students. My dad was the principal of the school. And um yeah, so we were maybe 10, 15 people in the class uh at most. And we had, let's see, 45 minutes of class and then we had like, 10 to 15 minutes outside. Everybody. Uh and that was like six times during the day, we were all outside. And regardless of the weather, we had to just get out there. And in the winter, we were uh skiing or going skating, um because we had one longer break after we ate, so we had half an hour or so. Um and in the summer, we play games with balls, we did like baseball ish, or softball, I guess, ish things and soccer and, yeah, so we had a lot of fun, a lot of outdoor stuff. And um yeah, I mean, and in school in Norway, when you're little, and I think it still is like that today, you don't get grades. Uh you don't get grades before you get to middle school. And I turned out okay, so I guess it's okay [laughs]. But um, so it's a different system over there, but it still, it still works. It's focused on play more than it—here, it's a lot of sports. Um that's very, very important. It's also important over there, but it's more for play than serious as it is here. So yeah. Shelly: Okay. So where was your school near mountains or an area where it was easy to ski during your break? Margot: Yes. Shelly: Okay. Margot: Yes. So yeah, I mean, because it was—we lived between a couple of mountains. So, I mean, we didn't ski—we did the cross-country skiing um when we went to school and I actually went, I used my cross-country skis, walking to school when it was the wintertime, it was the easiest way [laughs]. So yeah. Shelly: Wow. Margot: No bus or anything, just always walking. �Shelly: Um in school did you learn how to speak English? Or was that more in your home? Margot: Uh I, we all had to learn when we were 10 years old, uh which was I guess, fourth grade then. Now they start in first grade. But back then it was fourth grade. And so yeah, it's and, but we mainly read stuff, uh we don't really talk a whole lot. So, when I came here to the US, I, I was quite quiet, because I didn't feel like I could talk yet, so it took me a while. [laughs] Shelly: Mm-hm. Margot: Yeah. Shelly: Um, and so I guess jumping ahead a little bit. [laughs] Margot: Okay. Shelly: Um, when, around what year did you decide to the move to the US? Margot: So, well, my sister was here as an au pair. Uh that was, she came here in ‘90, I guess 1990. Um and then, so I decided to go and visit her uh uh in 1991. So that's when I came the very first time. Shelly: And do you want to speak a little bit about why you decided to stay in the US after you visited your sister? Margot: Yes, sure. Uh yes. So I came here and I, my sister was sick, she had gone through some difficult times. She was here as an au pair. And so I took her to see her doctor. Um and uh [sigh] he um was very charming. [laughs] And uh so he asked, actually asked us out and uh long story short, he ended up uh becoming my [laughs] husband, and the father of my two children. Um but yeah, so I mean, we had only a couple of days left uh here in the US before I actually got to take her home with me. Um but before then, we saw him a couple of times. Um and then I went back to Norway, and I stayed there for a year, came back and forth a couple of times to visit and then um he came over there to visit and then eventually after that one year, so in ‘92 I came here to stay. Shelly: Okay. Um and, so how did your family react to your decision to move and stay in the US? Margot: They thought it was sad, because they sort of lost me. Uh but at the same time, they said, as long as you're happy, that's all we want. So they were happy for me. Um so um yeah, but yeah, it was hard. It was hard, and it was hard for them, and it was hard for me, um because I left everybody, and I was young. And yeah, I was like 21. Um so yeah, that was, that was, it was hard, but they were they were okay with it. They said as long as you're happy, and I was. So yeah. Shelly: Yeah. Um, has anyone else in your family—so, when your sister was an Au Pair, was she planning to just stay in the US temporarily? �Margot: Yes, uh she was gonna stay here for a year. Um but she's, she was five months in Baltimore with a family that was uh uh mistreating her. Um so and then she moved to Bethesda. She was there for three months with a very nice family. Uh but then when I came, uh she had sort of repressed everything that had happened. Um and when I came that was familiar from home, she broke down, um. So, uh she ended her au pair contract early. She was not uh really allowed to or supposed to without losing a whole lot of money. Um but so, we went to her doctor, um and he wrote, which then became my husband after a while. Uh he wrote this note saying that she was ill and that she needed to go home and so that took care of everything. So, I got to take her home with me. Shelly: Okay. Um and have any of your other family members ever expressed a desire to want to live anywhere else besides Norway? Margot: Yeah, so just my brother. My other brother, my youngest brother, nine years younger, he went to Australia also actually for a year. He studied in Melbourne. Um my other brother, he lives in Australia, right in um Adelaide right now. But the others, they, um they all want to stay in Norway, and they all want me to come back to Norway [laughs] and live there. But yeah, no, it's just uh the three of us. But my, my youngest brother that came to Australia, he came here too and stayed with uh uh my ex-husband and myself for mm six months, I think, uh back in ‘96? Yeah. So, but then he had enough of travel, and he wanted to go back. So that's it. It's just two of us that are out. Out and about. Shelly: Mm-hm. Do you ever see yourself going back to Norway? Margot: My daughters would love that. [both laugh] Although, uh yeah, because both of them are there now. I think my youngest will come back uh here. That's her plan. Um but no, because I've actually been here my entire adult life. And I have my friends here that are like my family. It's not the same as family. But still, it's my family here. Um and I have yeah, my work. And I don't think I could start from scratch working in Norway, it's a different work atmosphere. I don't know what I would be doing. Um so it would be hard to move back. And I love actually living here. And I love, I have the best of both worlds because I can live here and I can call Norway home, but at the same time when I'm there I call the US home, so I have two homes. So, I'm very fortunate. Shelly: Mm-hm. Margot: Yeah. Shelly: Yeah. So, you're a dual citizen of both Norway and the US. Um, so do you want to talk a little bit about the actual immigration process and obtaining citizenship in the US? Margot: Right, I can. Uh right now I'm a uh just an immigrant and not a dual citizen. But as of January of 2020, last year, Norway finally allowed um dual citizenship. They hadn't before. I would lose my Norwegian citizenship if I applied to become an American, and I didn't want that because having a European passport is gold. So, I, [laughs] I decided um that I wanted to wait �because I knew it was coming, and then finally January of last year, uh they decided, okay, I can keep my Norwegian citizenship. So now, then I wanted to apply and then COVID happened. And apparently [laughs], the immigration system is now really slow. It was slow already [laughs], but now it's slower. So, but I am going to apply to become an U, a US citizen because I live here. I love this country. And I do feel I belong here. So, and now I can have can have the best of both worlds legally. So that's good. I mean, I'm here legally anyways, [both laugh] but no that didn't sound good [laughs]. But yeah, I'm a resident, I’m a legal resident, so yeah. But yeah, I want to do that little extra step. And the yeah, the immigration process is generally um, for me now after I married, uh it's uh has its I just go and renew my green card every 10 years, and it's just a matter of, you know, paying them some money and fingerprints, a new picture and, and that's it, so it's not a big deal. Yeah. Shelly: Okay. So, um, when you first moved to the US, how long after—or did you marry before? Sort of when was, what time did you marry around? Margot: Yes. Okay. Shelly: After you came. Margot: So, well I came to live here in ‘92. Um and then uh I, I had to either get married or go back to Norway, because I'm not allowed to stay here, uh you know, after a certain time. So, I was going back and forth a little, but in ‘93, which actually, my family doesn't know. I did get married at the [laughs] at the courthouse. Oh, it's okay. Uh that it's not, it's not a secret. But I got married at the courthouse and we were actually going to have a wedding ceremony that year, but my father became ill. So, we decided to have it in ‘94 instead, so that's our official like wedding date is in ‘94. But in ‘93, we actually got married. I think it was in January of ‘93. And that's I think the date that says also on my green card, that I was like legal to stay here. So before then I was just a visitor. Shelly: Okay. Margot: Yeah. Shelly: Were you, did you ever see yourself living in the US prior to meeting your husband? Margot: Um, not really. I mean, I was always curious about the US because I mean, you see, uh see movies, and it looked very cool. So, I wanted to visit. And so, I was super excited to go and visit my sister. But I did not at all plan on or think that I would stay here. That was not in my plan. But yeah, it happened. Shelly: Mm-hm. Margot: Yeah. [laughs] Shelly: Um do you wanna speak a little bit more about what you thought of the US before you came? �Margot: Yes. So um, my impression of the United States w—was basically through movies. Um. I loved going to the movies, and I [laughs] really liked commercials like bubblegum commercials. And I was like, oh my gosh, it looks so cool in the US, and it's always, the sun is always shining, and it looks so nice. [laughs] Um but yeah, and I, I don't, I mean, I read some books and but I’m not like a history buff, so I was not into history as much. But I was uh interested, I'm very interested in culture, very interested in languages. Um and even though I didn't think my English was good, I think it was better than most people in my class, because I always liked languages, so I was always intrigued by the English language and the culture and, and I, I liked the pop culture, I like the um uh I thought, you know, I saw um, what do you call it? Um. Now I have it all in Norwegian in my head, because I'm like, regressing here. But I saw, you know, pictures or, or like, oh, foods, and I was like, oh, wow, they have burgers, they have like several layers of like, stuff that looks so [laughs] interesting and great. And everything is bigger over there, and, like here. And I just thought it looked really cool, and uh different from Norway. Everything is so small um compared to here. Uh food. Um. Well, yeah, I get back to food, I enjoy food [laughs]. But yeah, food, culture, language. I'm all, I'm interested in all of that. Shelly: Um, so how did language play a part in your immigration experience, besides the fact that at first you were a little shy to speak English? Margot: Um, well, I was really worried uh when, when uh Robert and I, my ex-husband, decided to get married. Um and he proposed and all of that. Um I heard, you know, that we had to go to the immigration. And I was so scared of talking and opening my mouth because I didn't know what to say. And then Robert was like, don't worry, I'll take care of it. And I'm like, I have to say something too you know. Um but I got there, and you know, people were friendly, they were nice and asked me questions, and I managed to I mean, it was, I mean I was sweating, I think and I was nervous for days before. [both laugh] But, but it was okay. I mean, people were generally nice. And that's what I see, that's since day one, since I've come to this country, people are always like, hi, how are you? So friendly. People are not like that in Norway, even people are nice, but they're very much more reserved than here. So, I really like that aspect of the US that people are welcoming, I feel. Shelly: Very nice. Um, earlier, you had talked about the community you've created with your friends? Margot: Mm-hm. Shelly: Um, are any of those friends from Norway also? Margot: I would say that 99% of them [laughs] are. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I came here, I felt alone. Not necessarily lonely, um there's a difference, I guess. But I felt alone for a long time um because I left my family. I didn't have any friends. Um I couldn't work in the beginning. Um I started working after I got married. Um. But in the beginning, I didn't really have any friends for a long time. So, I went into work where my husband was working at his medical clinic. Um and I sort of became friends with the nurse, and the receptionist, but that wasn't uh. Yeah, it wasn't like friends friends. So, I don't know. Um. Yeah, it took me a while to really get to know �anybody, so. Uh but when I then heard about this Norwegian group of women, um I was intrigued, and I got in touch with them. And I haven't looked back. I mean, it's, it's because we have so much in common, we have, we identify with, with each other, we all have a story, we all um you know, we have our language, our culture, we have so many similarities. So instantly, I felt at home here, even though I hadn't really felt at home for a good while. And then finally, things fit into place. And I, I felt like, okay, I'm good here now. Shelly: Okay. So does this Norwegian women's group, do you all do things that celebrate Norwegian culture and heritage? Margot: Absolutely. So yes, um I've been part of this group, since Isabella [her daughter] was born, uh that's when I heard about it. And so, every year, um I've been on the board three times uh as a secretary, because I like to write. Um and we plan two major events every year. One is our 17th of May uh celebration, which is our Constitution Day, uh where we can actually uh invite men. Um otherwise, forget men, it's all women [laughs]. So, we do that 17th, around the 17th of May, and it's a big celebration with uh we have speeches, we have songs, we like to sing a lot. And then we eat, and everybody brings traditional dishes. So, it's huge. Uh and we all look forward to it, we wear our, I have a national costume that I that I wear. Um and so that's quite special. Um it's actually, national costumes in Norway are really expensive, uh mine is like $4,000. So, I don't wear it a whole lot. But I wear it then. The other occasion that we have is Christmas, um which is also huge in Norway. And we have uh special dishes that we only eat for Christmas. And we all bring that, no men allowed this time. And uh we yeah, we have our traditional clothing, traditional food. Um otherwise, other than that we just get together once a month. Uh well, not now, um these days, but generally otherwise, when it's not COVID we get together. Um and we um we exchange recipes, we exchange, you know, Norwegian stories and just we just keeping our culture alive, I guess. Shelly: Very nice. So, um can you describe what the national costume is like? Margot: Yes, uh my national costume is uh a huge wool uh has like a big uh skirt. Um black with some embroideries in all over the place, uh. It's very, very warm. Um it has a vest that is also embroidered and then it has like jewelry uh in the front that's, that's the most expensive part. Um it's very um traditional, um I don't know how to describe it. But it's, and I have a white shirt inside the vest. Um and each region in Norway has a different national costume as they call it. And so mine is from Telemark because I was born in Telemark. Um. And so yeah, mine is from there. Yeah. Shelly: Do the costumes symbolize anything? Margot: That's a very good question. And they might. Um actually, I don't know, but they might. That's a good question. I will have to find that out. Yeah. Shelly: Okay. Margot: Yeah. [both laugh] �Shelly: Um, so when you first came to the United States, where did you live? What area? Margot: So, when I first came, uh I moved to this house, it was a farm out on River Road in Potomac [Maryland] because um Robert, at that time had horses, actually he still does. Um and so we had horses there. Um so it was like, sort of into the, far into the country, like way out River Road. Um and yeah, so it, but it was a beautiful area. Shelly: Um what kind of jobs have you had while living in the United States? Margot: I've had two jobs, um and one was uh, I became the office manager for Robert’s uh medical clinic. Um so I did all the invoicing, I did all the payrolls, um invoicing, ordered supplies, uh you know, whatever an office manager does. So that was my first job. And then I had two little babies, uh and I took a break. Um but so when they were little and started school, I went to school a lot and I volunteered there. Um I went there every week to help out. But then I got the job that I have now, uh which is working for an architect um out here in Virginia, which I love. So, I'm happy about my job, I just do some design work for him. It's a small firm, so it's mainly the architect, his wife, she's the office manager, and then it's me, who does all the design and all of uh you know, the interior design, and plus I do, I also do some invoicing and little office stuff, too. So yeah, it's fun. Shelly: Mm-hm. Um, would you like to talk about your daughters, Isabella and Alexandra, and how you maybe passed on some Norwegian heritage to them? Margot: Absolutely. My two daughters, they're now, Isabella is uh 23 and Alexandra's 21. Um and from day one, I decided I wanted to learn and teach them Norwegian, uh because it's such a strong culture in me, and I wanted them to have the opportunity to speak with their grandparents. Because not everybody in Norway, now the younger generation, yes, everybody speaks Norwegian [English]. But the older generation, not necessarily. [clears throat] So my father, for instance, didn't speak much uh Norwegian [she means English], so I wanted them to speak to him. Um. So, but it's very natural for little kids to not want to speak the language that nobody else speaks. So, I had to be very strict with them. I'm not a super strict person, but with my girls, I was strict in the language sense, and I told them that if, because they started uh answering me in English, when I uh spoke to them in Norwegian. And then I said, girls, if you speak to me in English, I'm not going to talk to you. You need to speak to me in Norwegian. And they're like, oh, okay, and so they did! And but I had to remind them again and again. But as they um got a little bigger, it was easier because they talk to each other in Norwegian whenever I was around, and I was always around. So, it became easier and easier. It was hard in the beginning, but then it was easier and easier. And so yeah, I and I fed them Norwegian food, and I took them to Norway every single year since they were born. And so they're very much immersed in the Norwegian culture. Shelly: Right, yeah, both of them are now living in Norway. Margot: Both of— Shelly: Um. Yeah. So how do you feel about that? �Margot: Oh, my gosh. Well, you know, [sigh] it's it um, first of all, I'm super happy that they are together, because I know that they've missed each other so much. Um they were apart for quite a while um much thanks to COVID. Um. Um for me, I know I don't own my children, so whatever they want to do in this world, they need to do it. They need to go out and live their lives. I would love to have them closer. Um I don't know if that's going to happen with Isabella um because I mean, she's engaged to a Norwegian. And she has a dog. [laughs] Um Alexandra, I know she's planning on coming back. Um I don't know what happens if she meets a Norwegian guy, for instance, uh if she I mean, it's a possibility that she would stay. It would be—I mean, I miss them terribly. Um because I mean, we're very, very close. So, it would be hard in a way but at the same time, if they are happy that’s all that matters. It's pretty, I'm pretty much like my parents, if my girls are happy, uh just like my parents said to me, if I'm happy, that's all that matters. Shelly: Okay. Um and so how do you think you have combined some US culture and some Norwegian culture amongst the three of you? Is there a way that you've done that? Margot: Um, huh, good question. I mean, we, we lived here, have lived here in the US um. And so, it's been important not just to show them, of course, the Norwegian culture, because I'm Norwegian. Uh, I've taken them around uh with their dad a lot to like Disney World, and, you know, all American traditional things that you do. Um or not everybody does not, not everybody can, of course, but we've been fortunate to be able to travel several places, um here in USA, US and that's a very good way to, to um get to know a country and, um but I was, I never really talked much English to my girls, it’s always been Norwegian. Now. And also, that was also when uh they had friends over when they were younger, I always spoke because I wanted to maintain that Norwegian. Now that they've gotten this big, I finally feel I could speak English to them, and they won't lose their Norwegian so it's okay. But to combine the two for a while it was strictly Norwegian, and the American part was just, you know, showing them America, and foods, we're very much into foods and trying new things and I’ve gone to Florida quite a while, quite a lot with the girls, and we just, yeah, love to be together and explore different areas of the country. Shelly: Yeah. Um this may be sort of difficult, but it's, do you think there's a way to maybe compare and contrast Norwegian foods and American foods? Margot: Yes. Let's see. Um Norwegian food, as I as I mentioned a little bit earlier, is uh everything is in a much [laughs] smaller scale. Um you come to a restaurant and, well, not necessarily a restaurant either. But yeah, everything is in a smaller on a smaller scale. Here, everything is so huge. Um and I, well, when I first came here, I was a little disappointed because my sister said, let's go and have a burger. Um and we went, and I, I didn't, I didn't find it that it tasted much. Um it was sort of tasteless, maybe we went to the wrong place. But in Norway, it's, it's even though salt and pepper were like the main spices for a long time, now we have Indian, we have Thai, we have Vietnamese food, we have like all kinds of fusion stuff going on. But for a while, salt and pepper was it, but and it was pretty much up until I came here. But I came here, and I was like, I was not too impressed about American foods. Um but now, of course, I've been around, uh, I've been to so many places, and I um yeah, I think Norwegian food is pretty amazing. Um and I love, for me being sort of more multicultural, I love the fusion ex—aspects of �what you can get here with the different mixes into the American cuisine so that it's more of a mix than just plain this or plain that, I like yeah, the fusion part. But um, and but you also do have that more in Norway now. It's becoming more assimilated, it's more similar. Norway and the US, it's more similar in food wise than it was like when I first came here, for sure. Shelly: Okay. So, another sort of compare and contrast um that I'm interested in asking you about is what you think of politics in Norway versus politics in the United States. Margot: Yes. Charged subject. [both laugh] Uh now, uh in Norway, we have a different political system. We have several parties. Um we have the Green Party, we have the Worker Party, we have the uh the right but the right-wing party is sort of more like the Democrats here so it's not like super right. Uh and then we have another one right. And so, I never got into I mean, it's complicated over in Norway, it's more simple here with like two parties, or an independent, so maybe three. Um but in what I, what I see here is that um, they throw dirt on each other here in the election process a lot. They don't do that to the same extent over Norway. Uh that's not what's important, they actually focus on the, you know, what's important, what they're trying to say, as opposed to here, they're attacking each other more, um and trying to find dirt, and this person did that and yeah, all of that. But, um, yeah. So. [sigh] But I've actually never voted here in the US, um I would have if I could, but so that's another reason why now I'm sort of, sorry. Getting off topic. But yeah, it's [laughs] it's, it's different. Yeah, several parties in Norway and just a couple here, and I think they're a little bit more clean over in Norway, you know, in the process of voting, but their getting to be a little influenced over there uh of things that are happening here as well, um so it's interesting to see. Shelly: All right. Uh, I guess, maybe a little bit of a less charged subject, [both laugh] so your exhusband was, he is an immigrant as well. Margot: Yes. Shelly: Um and can you tell me a little bit about what it was like raising children in the US when both of you were not originally from the US? Margot: Mm-hm. Yes. So, because he was originally born in Vietnam, uh he came here when he was 15, so I mean, and he was naturalized so he became an American citizen. But he had, he comes from a large family, he has very strong ties to his Vietnamese culture. So, we um, we had a household that was split. Not split, that doesn't sound good. That was a mix of Vietnamese and Norwegian culture. Um and his mom lived with us for 10 years. Um and so, we got uh some amazing food that we cooked uh together. And, yeah, so food is very important in the [both laugh] Vietnamese culture, and also in the Norwegian, I guess, also American culture. Um but so yeah, we had a mix of the two. So, whatever, whenever there was a Norwegian uh cause for celebration, uh one of our big days, we celebrated that. Whenever there was um Vietnamese tradition, uh which is uh, in his family rooted a lot in Buddhism, um, then we celebrated that and we all have Vietnamese outfits, um and we all dress up, and we all eat special food. And so, it's, it's great to have been able to [clears throat] to have both the Vietnamese, the Norwegian, and the American culture. �Shelly: Mm-hm. Margot: Mm-hm. Shelly: [laughs] Um have you noticed any very stark differences in culture between Vietnamese culture and Norwegian culture? Margot: Vietnamese and Norwegian? Shelly: Mm-hm. Margot: Yes. Uh and one thing, um, [pause] let's see, if uh I'm like trailing here now. But um in uh my, as they, they had—now I’m starting to speak Norwegian in my head here. [Shelly laughs] They have this matriarch system, uh where uh Robert’s mom, she was the boss of the family. And the el— you, the el—older you are, the more um you have uh a say in things. So, when I came here, uh when I was 21, I was pretty much the youngest within Robert’s family because he's one of the youngest siblings, so everybody were older than me, so I was at the bottom of the totem pole. So I, so it was hard in the beginning because um, I, you know, I was like, thrown into the kitchen. I had to do the dishes, whereas the others they could relax and just wait for me to finish or wait for me to finish cooking and with them my mother-in-law, um because it's, that's just part of the culture. I come from a culture where everybody's the same, you are equal to everybody. Um so uh that was new to me and uh not cool, I thought. [both laugh] Uh it was hard. But at the same time, I do really admire how they take care of their elders and how they value the elders. It's not the same here in the US, or in Norway. People are put in homes. People are, oh, no, they're too old to, to, I mean, here, uh in the Vietnamese countr—culture, they take the elders in, and they take care of them until they can, they're no longer walking on this earth. So, I, in that sense, I think it's pretty amazing. Shelly: Mm-hm. Um, and do you think that your daughters ended up inheriting more of, more of one culture than the other, or do you think it was more balanced? Margot: Um I definitely think the Vietnamese culture was more uh, it was fun, and it was the um little parties that we had, but that’s more in the background. It’s a split between the American and the Norwegian culture, for sure. Because they lived here. Um and all their friends were uh were American. And I had a very strong Norwegian influence on them. Mainly I think, but it’s interesting because I have, Isabella since she was very little, she said, mama, I want to go to Norway. I want to live in Norway. I said, because she said, it’s always dessert there. [both laugh] But I said, that’s because we’re on vacation. And she’s like, no, but it’s so great I love Norway. And then she ended up going there and living there, whereas Alexandra, she never said that, she said, no I love the US. I want to stay here. I want to visit, but then I want to come back. And that’s, that might be what happens, you know, eventually that Alexandra might come back here because she’s more drawn to the US than Isabella is, she’s more drawn to Norway. Yeah and they had the same upbringing, so I don’t know why that happened. [both laugh] Yeah. Shelly: Um do your daughters and your family in Norway have a very close relationship? Since you visited every summer? �Margot: Yes. Yes. They have cousins over there. Uh, they’re, um they have two girl cousins that are 1 and 2 years older. Um and then they have younger uh boys, boy cousins and one girl, but they’re sort of younger younger again, so. But yeah, they’re all close and they’ve all spent every summer together and every other Christmas for a long time, so yeah. They’re close. Yeah. Shelly: That’s good. Um so and do your daughters have, your daughters are US citizens, but are they also Norwegian citizens? Margot: Yes. Because uh it’s different rules for kids. So, because they were born here, they’re naturally American citizens, but because I’m uh as a mom Norwegian citizen, they automatically became Norwegian citizens. Whereas, but they lose the citizenship uh if they don’t spend some time in Norway for a while. Like Isabella, she’s now naturalized, she’s now dual. Um but Alexandra, she will lose her citizenship uh by the age of 21 uh in the summer when her birthday is unless they say that, no, okay you’re living here now, we’re gonna let you keep it. So, it’s a gamble for her, we’ll see how that goes. Um but they have requirements of you have to live there for at least a year, but I think she’s planning on probably staying there for about a year um. Unless something happens, I don’t know when she’ll come back. But, um yeah, so, we’ll see. Shelly: How long has um Isabella been in Norway? Living in Norway. Margot: She’s been there since, I think she moved there like right after high school, so she was what, 19? Is that right? Like so 4 years maybe. 4 or 5? 4 ish. 4 and a half how about that? Shelly: Okay. [both laugh] Margot: Yeah. Shelly: Has it been an interesting dynamic um going to Norway to visit her? Margot: Yes. Shelly: While she’s been living there? Margot: Yes, it is interesting because when I go now, she’s my guide. We go to Oslo and she’s been taking Alexandra and me around. I guess Alexandra will do the same thing now. Because I feel, I’m not connected to Norway the same way anymore as I used to be since I live here. I feel she is the local now, she is the Norwegian now, she’s taking me around and showing me everything because, yeah, so, the dynamic has changed. She’s the Norwegian one, I’m just visiting. [both laugh] Shelly: Um and so we talked earlier a little bit about what you thought of the US before you came. Um there’s this very sort of big idea of the American Dream. Um. Have you felt that in your life while you’ve been living in the US or prior to? �Margot: Absolutely. Because here I feel it’s the land of opportunities. In Norway we have an unwritten law that is uh it’s called the Jante Law, J-A-N-T-E. Um and it has several unwritten rules uh one of them is, don’t think that you’re better than anybody else. Don’t think that you uh should try to do some—uh you’re basically you’re not encouraged to be different. You’re not encouraged to try to achieve something great because people look down on you. Everybody’s supposed to be the same. Whereas here, you come here, and you do something you actually get rewarded for it. It’s like, oh good for you, you did, you did that? That’s great. You don’t get that in Norway. People are better about it now, but they still have that ingrained in them, that don’t even think, don’t try to like step uh up and become something because nu-uh it’s frowned upon. So, it’s yeah, it’s definitely, I feel, in that sense, I love living here because I feel like I can, I’m rewarded, if I do something great, then it should be rewarded. I mean you should be um not like rewarded, but it, it, it should be a good thing. So, and I do love that. Yeah. Shelly: Does your family that lives in Norway feel the same way that you do about that? Margot: Yes. They do because [laughs] I’ve come home so many times and I’ve told them, you know, this is how it is here, and you know you should be a little bit more like what it is in the US and they’re like, yeah we agree. I mean they see it. But you know they live there, and they’re so used to it and so their mindset is a little different. It’s just they, they adapt, I guess. But yeah, they see it. Shelly: Mm-hm. Margot: Mm-hm. Shelly: Um do you have any, sort of crowing achievements that you can think of that in the US you’ve gotten to celebrate in that way? Margot: Um well I’ve, yeah, I think yeah, my job for instance, um which is um. When I started my job where I am now, I started doing filing. I started at the bottom level. I, you know I had, you know I worked as an office manager at my previous job, but I came in and they basically just needed someone to organize their office. It was a huge mess. It was drawings, architectural drawings everywhere. My boss couldn’t find anything, he was like, oh, you need to help me. I’m like, yes, I’m super organized. Let me do it. And I organized everything. And I had no idea how to use Excel, so I taught my—I went through tutorials and I’m now very sufficient in using [both laughing] Excel. I put everything on Excel on where everything was in the office. Every single drawing that we had in the office. I organized everything and then my boss said, hmm looks like uh maybe you could uh do something else for us, because then you know, no more filing right? I did all of it. So, I was like, yeah, yeah I’m ready to do whatever, and he’s like, hmm can you do our permit process, can you get all our permits? Because they were using a permit agency to get all the building permits. For every project that we have, we have to have a building permit. And he was not happy with the service that he was using and I’m like, yeah, yeah sure. And, I gotta say, I love that part of the job because I, well now it’s all online, but back then, before COVID, before COVID, um I got to go to different jurisdictions, talk to different people, and show them architectural drawings, saying, this is what we’re doing. You need to approve this �for us. And I started to learn what the different jurisdictions required. And, and then I got positive feedback from them saying, oh it’s you, it’s so great because you’re always prepared, and I’m like, yeah! [both laugh] So, uh so I got really good at that. Um and then, we had uh um an interior designer um that worked for us and one day she’s like, I think I need to go and do something else, and she just left. And then my boss was again like, oh no! What are we gonna—Margot? [both laugh] he turned around and looked at me, do you think that you could,” you know and I’m like, “sure boss. Yes, I can do it.” And I had actually, you know, I was working with our designer when she was there, and I was observing what she was doing. I did not um, oh what do you say? Well, yeah, I did not do her job then, but I was helping her. She was always asking me, “what do you think about this color? What do you think about this scheme?” And I always had an opinion because I always, I have an instinct for what looks good and what doesn’t, and she’s like “oh, that’s what I first thought!” And I said, “always go with your instinct.” So, okay, anyways. Um so, I started doing design work uh and meeting with our clients, and showing them carpet books, and uh paint samples, and surface for their kitchen, backsplash, and I love it! It’s so much fun. And I get all these positive feedback from everybody saying, “oh, we love our new office, we’re so happy, thank you so much,” you know? So, yes, when I come, both from my boss and from th- our clients, I get a lot of positive feedback and that makes me really, really happy, so, so yeah. So, and I- it would not be exactly the same in Norway. It would be much more subdued, and people would be grateful, but it’s just different over here. So, here, yes, I love all the positive feedback. Shelly: Mhm. Margot: Yeah. [laughs] Shelly: Uh, and, so switching gears a little bit, how do you think COVID has impacted, maybe not even necessarily your experience as an immigrant, but just your experience living in the US period? Margot: Um, I- I mean, I see how my, how my native country is handling the crisis compared to here. Um, and, [sighs] so, so it’s hard because they’re much better at handling it over there. They’re actually shutting down when they need to shut down. And they’re getting it under control, their cases are so much lower. Um but at the same time I feel we’re all responsible for ourselves. Obviously, we’re responsible for you know people around us, but we can only do so much. So, I’m thinking if I do my share, that’s all I can do. I can’t tell anybody else to say- you know, what they need to do. If I’m careful, then I’m careful for myself and for everybody around and, and that’s all I can do really. But yeah, no I mean it’s hard because it’s a big country, and it’s a lot of people, and it’s a lot of different opinions. And here, you see a lot of conspiracy theories also, which doesn’t make it easier. And people are scared of vaccines, they’re scared of this, they don’t want to do that, and they don’t wanna wear a mask, they can’t breathe, um they have all kinds of opinions, and but I see that I, you know, I just have to do my share and that’s, that’s all I can do, so yeah. And so, I’m not feeling like oh, I should run to Norway [Shelly chuckles] because it’s better over there. I’m happy here and I’m doing my share here, and that’s all I can do. �Shelly: Mhm. Margot: Yeah. Shelly: Is there um anything else at all that you would like to talk about, about any point in your life? Margot: [both laugh] Oh yeah, do you have an hour? No, just kidding. Shelly: [laughs] Margot: [both laughing] Um. Hmm. I don’t know, uh, are you, you, you have no more questions for me? Shelly: No, I’m, [laughs] I’m done. Margot: Okay, well I’m very impressed uh at your questioning skills and uh your flow. I’m very impressed, I have to say. Shelly: [laughs] Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I learned a lot, this was a very nice interview. Thank you for agreeing to do it. Margot: Absolutely! Thank you, Shelly, it was good to see you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2021 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Shelly Justement Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Margot Naessan Location The location of the interview Rockville, MD Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Margot Naessan Description An account of the resource The video of this interview can be found <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vE49GqssXU">here</a>. <br /><br />This interview between Shelly Justement and Margot Naessan explores Margot’s life and her immigration to the United States from Norway in 1992. Margot was born in Telemark, Norway in 1967. In this interview, Margot discusses her family and childhood in Norway, her reason for moving to Maryland, her family and career, and her community of Norwegian friends in the United States. Margot’s interview focuses on cultural comparisons between Norway and the United States, and briefly touches on Vietnamese culture from her ex-husband’s family. Margot also discusses the impact that the COVID pandemic has had on her experience as an immigrant in the United States. <br /><br />This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2021). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shelly Justement Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 1, 2021 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf, m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Children culture food language marriage Norway https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/b01bd984ccda6dde389ce2cd89f28e76.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=pD-uPsTj%7E3wQaGgq8A%7Eb9CSDNRsxvQRjwJftvGb98lJPwpY4u3h5Rl0cMeQ4gKcRGBqpziig0o2S8yPfn1%7EFj8b6dXs32bwo58QRKK-RcEWjrgusSDpNe4bKWJPgqyLvZo7WIQRWlzRp7HrI9MxDs8fJRVTaSZxCAX30Ub8cjuR-IvtyMKJbu-8VkeV6d9UiwllsVUHpSQeg05GPS10bGexVLH59O59R%7EAnc4%7ESEdqCSCx6uyjBiugHlyhtZ7%7EGIsz63xAf2CzQG4IKerztj-s33TxR29IGn%7EkwfAig5-VlF9sBEEOt0fOmrZ8xx0diSmPSZePMwGhCzmJ4WG1WS4g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 28d2e9db6ef7a002bbc7c096db65a379 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/417baa592f51bd33281f0f317c8938a8.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=edPxieEUAHF-wdQGuPXPskHQIhXm02QRPvMex%7EOy3E2YH7GNrxTepOVkHFn1a2pjeXnIquASeA%7ESGBAegO%7Ez9YzJPw0JzX3v-dciqUmZ8G83UsUU3R6FNylCBiRUMTuUtuyAZzhB3mSpTi4FQksXe%7EQ-x2f9t4mL74B4vlyscgEY75otz5KsZTHwE4Iwn3eJKxEfCgbWhVPy6C0j%7E4BMRrVF%7EuXrKxeez9QRiGMgPu4HQlUDGnDgbq0QsnFzaTQG4mAaC7ALg4TYLII2BQi9syYnFGEoNUdl3dNnMe0NeXTPAql3XgEz0dDrZkwkpc4LZoWVg%7ELN4d2ls77q%7EPOT%7Eg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 289b96566dae472833f920a6275d1d68 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland HIST 428M – Spring 2021 Instructor: Dr. Anne Rush Interviewer’s name: Maya Assaker Interviewee’s name: Rima Assaker Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Lebanon Interviewee’s Current Residence: Maryland Date of Interview: March 1, 2021 Type of Interview: In-person Introduction: This interview between Maya Assaker and Rima Assaker discusses her life as a child and into adulthood, regarding her experiences in Beirut, Lebanon before and during their civil war in 1975. When she was eight years old, her family finally left their country and immigrated to the DMV in the United States. Rima focuses a lot on her perspective as a child in war, and later shares what it is like to try and assimilate to US culture as an obvious foreigner. She describes how her two cultures clashed. She highlights the importance of finding a sense of community and being proud of one’s culture. Keywords: Lebanon, culture, civil war, child, refugee, community Maya: Today is March 1st, 2021. I’m Maya Assaker and I'm interviewing my mom Rima Assaker. Okay, can you tell me where and when you were born? Rima: I was born in 1967 in Beirut, Lebanon. Maya: Uh, what was your family like growing up? Rima: Uh, well, my mother is American, and my father is Palestinian, and he had to go to Lebanon in 1948 when a lot of the problems happened for the Palestinians and they had to leave their country, so they went to Lebanon, and that's when he started living there. Um, then he came to the United States in the ‘50s because he always wanted to come to the United States, and that's when he met my mother and they went out for a few years and then they got married and they came back to Lebanon, so my, um, my parents lived as a married couple in Beirut for 16 years until the, um, Lebanese civil war started in 1975. So we were, I’m one of three kids and we were all born there in, um, Beirut in the ‘60s at the American University hospital. Maya: Why did your parents move to Beirut in the first place? Rima: Well, my whole—my father’s whole family was in Lebanon and they had all left Palestine and gone to Lebanon, and, um, he had a very strong support system there. His brother was there and his mother, and all his cousins, and he had a lot of cousins and they all lived in Beirut. And for many years it was a great place for them all to be, you know, to live together those are the people that he grew up with and that was his support system and he started the �business there so, they, uh, they probably were planning to live there their entire lives until the war happened. Maya: What was your education like? Rima: Uh, well, we—the three of us went to private school and then over there usually the private schools are religious based, so we were in all in, um, Christian school, I mean, I guess, we were not Catholics, but we were Protestants, and we went to a Greek Orthodox school, um, that was affiliated with the church. So most people in our shoes would go to religious school. I mean the public school system there isn't as good. So, if you could send your child to a private school you would, and like I said, usually the private schools were, were, um based in the churches. Maya: And what about when you came to the United States? Rima: So then we came the United States in 1976, like I said the war started in ‘75 so by the time we left there, was about a year later, we came to the United States and we moved to Maryland, uh, the reason we moved here is because my uncle had already moved here a few years before that, and my father wanted to go somewhere where there—where he already had family, so we moved to—we came to Washington, DC and stayed with him for a little while, then we moved to a place in Rockville, and, were enrolled into public school. So life really changed for me when I was about eight years old. Uh, we came here and, um, it changed I think for the better for us because we were kids. It was very difficult for my parents, obviously, they had to reestablish themselves, but as kids we really liked it, uh pretty quickly. Maya: What made it easy to like? Rima: Well, we grew up always hearing about the United States and like I said when my father met my mother, he had lived here for a few years. So, his talk was always about coming to live here. My mother always wanted to stay living in Lebanon because we had a good business and a nice house and all the family was there, and there was a strong support system, um, so there was really no reason in her eyes to move here and start all over. Um, and he, my father, always talked about moving to United States, and I guess the war was what pushed it through. Um, so, yeah, we had to quickly get used to it. We didn't really have a choice at that point. Maya: What has your career been like, what jobs have you had? Rima: Oh, like I said I grew up here, so I was, you know, assimilated into the culture here very quickly because I was very little, and when I was 16 I got my first job in retail, and we worked in retail, my siblings and I for a few years, and then we worked in restaurants. I waited tables, and then after that, I graduated college so then we started working, um, in Washington. I started off in a job not in my major at the Mayflower Hotel and then eventually moved into editing and writing and now I still do that I work as an editor. Maya: What was your process of coming to America? �Rima: Um, well. I guess I have to tell the story of why it happened. We, um, we, uh, were in school there during the war, and when the war starts, at the beginning you don't really know it's a war and you don't know how bad it's going to be, and how long it's going to last. So, you—we were going to school as normal. Um, and then it started becoming a thing where, you know, sometimes school would be canceled because the troubles were bad, and you would hear, uh, you would hear shooting, or you would hear bombing, and there would be some kind of conflict going on. And so, they'd shut down the schools, just like they shut down the schools here for weather and other things, now, with the pandemic. They would have like announcements about schools being closed this week, or next week, because of whatever problem or maybe there was an election or maybe, something was going on in a nearby country that would affect you. So, they would shut down schools. But overall, I think we always thought it would end, or my parents always thought it would end and you can imagine, um, having three small children and thinking things will blow over. And thinking that, you know, this would work itself out, that you'd be alright, so my mother was not, uh, really excited about leaving, even though [laughs] she'd be going back to her own country. She's from Missouri. So, um, then what happened is one day we were at school, and, um, I remember this day really well, I was very young. And they, we heard a really loud explosion, and someone had driven by the school, and thrown a hand grenade right into our school yard. And so, it was the scariest thing. It was so loud, people running around screaming, crying, not knowing what the heck is going on. Um, and after that, is when schools shut down for, for good for us there. And we were sent home and school started airing on TV. So we would get up in the morning, we were expected to watch TV and go to school, which of course was a joke. Um, so that happened for a while. And as a child, I really don't remember the bad things as far as uh, you know, the war, not having to worry about things—I didn't have children, obviously. But as a child, you remember the fun things. Like I remember, uh, no school being a great thing. And then I remember, um, that we would, um, like, we had to be careful so that my father would put—whoever was around—would put things in front of the windows in case there was an explosion nearby, the glass might break that kind of thing, you wouldn't want to be near the windows, we were told to stay away from the windows, we would sleep in the hallway, like we had a central hallway area that had no windows. So, all the family was sleeping there on the floor, and that was fun for us, because we were kids, and you know, we'd see our neighbor friends or our cousins, and they'd come over and play all day. And so, to us, it was more of an adventure than anything. Um, but that was a turning point as far as my remembering in my head that, you know, that at that point, my parents started packing, and they knew that they could leave because my mother is a US citizen, always was. So, we always had the option to leave. Of course, there was paperwork involved, I do remember going down and getting our passports done, um, so that we could get out of there. And [sighs] uh, we weren't citizens yet. Because when you're born abroad, you have to be, you have to go through a process, you had to become naturalized. So, we came here, eventually we became naturalized, but we were able to travel pretty quickly. Um, which is now looking back, I realize how lucky we were compared to other people, because other people had no options, and we were just able to get our paperwork done and get out. And um, so anyway, that happened. And another thing happened where my mother took the three of us out to go get sh—food and groceries. And it's not like here, you know, you go grocery shopping and go down different streets. Because you know there's a vegetable vendor here, or there's a butcher here, you know, �just at that point, they didn't—now they do—but at that point, they had no big supermarkets where you can get everything. So, you'd need to go to different specialty stores. So, we had gone down this one street that I remember my sister wanted to go to a different place because they had peaches. And she really wanted peaches and she knew this other vendor like a vegetable stand or fruit stand had very good peaches. Someone had told us, I guess. So [sighs] we went down a different route. And the route that we were supposed to go on got hit by a bomb that day. And there's people talking about all these people getting killed and hurt and, uh, shrapnel, people being hit by shrapnel. I mean, we could have—even if you're not in the middle of a bomb, I don't know if you know, that what happens from a bomb was things explode around it including the bomb itself. And so, you could hit with shrapnel and you could die from just that. And shrapnel’s little pieces of metal, they can just lodge into you. So, uh, that's what happened that day. A lot of people got hurt that day. And I remember that was also a turning point because we heard that bomb and just ran for home, and I remember we lived on the sixth floor and we got to our building. We were running up the stairs because there was no electricity. When you're in a war, there's no electricity, there's no water sometimes. So we were, uh, running up these steps. And my father was running down these steps because he was home, and he was freaking out because he knew we were on that street that got hit. And I remember that feeling. I think that was really the turning point where my parents decided that was it, you know, it was too close of a call, and we, we left really soon after that. Um. I forget what your question was [laughs]. Maya: No, that—that was good [Rima laughs] When did you realize—I’ll come back to that question—when did you realize as a kid that it was bad, did that ever happen? Rima: You know, as a kid, you always gauge your fear and your, and your, your anxiety comes from your parents. So, if your parents don't let you feel it, then you don't feel it. Um, my mother has always been sort of the person to wear her heart on her sleeve. So, you always know if she's upset or sad or scared or whatever. So, you could sense it with her. But I think because we had neighbor children and friends and cousins over all the time and things were unusual, as a kid, we didn't notice it that much. We knew they were worried, but we didn't realize the danger that we were in. My, uh, yeah, looking back, my mother has a very calm way about her when she's afraid for us. She knows how to calm us down. So, she didn't—she did a very good job as far as us not being nervous and scared all the time. You know, it was, it was not fun to know we were getting up and leaving all of our surroundings. But then again, the surroundings were changing, everyone was leaving, a lot of people were leaving. And a lot of people you weren't even seeing because of the war. So, things were different anyway, and when we left to come to the United States, it was like a huge feeling of relief. We were all very happy to leave. Maya: And what about when you came here? What was that like initially? Rima: Well, Lebanon is very different than here. Lebanon is a beautiful country with trees and grass, and, and, just like here, and we always imagined America would be, you know, soft grass and beautiful green trees. Because over there, it's warmer. It's—it's more of a tropical climate. So, you wouldn't see that stuff unless you went into the mountains or something. So, we couldn't wait to go either. You'd see it on TV, you can see how beautiful the United States was and how clean and no pollution and no littering and, that's a big thing in Lebanon, is the littering, as you �know. But um, we couldn't wait to come here and just be in this like—we focused a lot on that, it's funny, how clean and beautiful and pure, like how the air was clean, and there was no war, and there was no fear. And we moved into this apartment in Rockville, it was like this rinky dink little three-bedroom apartment, with my family. We had been in a beautiful penthouse type of place, in Lebanon. That's where we lived. And we were considered well off, and we had servants and we had a cook, and we had a chauffeur. And that was pretty normal way of living if you had some money in Lebanon. But then when we came here, we pretty much had nothing. And we had to fend for ourselves, and my father had to try to restart his career. And my mother went back to work, which she didn't work in Lebanon. And everything changed. However, even though all that was going on and all that stress as a child, all I remember was the peace of not worrying about, many things, like if the electricity was going to get cut, if we weren't going to have water, if we could take a, a ride somewhere and go drive somewhere in it be safe, if we could, uh, go to school and not worry about that being canceled. And you know, you could play outside and not have to worry about anything possibly happening. I mean, nothing really happened where we would be outside and a bomb would hit our—hit, hit us, but there was always the fear of that. So, coming to the United States was a really great experience as far as just feeling, oh, like it was a big sigh of relief, like finally we can be not worried about that kind of stuff. So, coming here was, to all of us—I look back really fondly at those first few days. The first few years in Rockville were like, I mean, you'd laugh if you heard about the things that we found so relaxing, like just that we could go and play outside, and I remember with my little brother, we would lie down on the grass and look at the sky and just, it was just really peaceful compared to living in a country that was really on the brink of a terrible war that went on for decades. So, you know, you don't know it at the time, but when you come here, it was a huge sigh of relief for all of us. Maya: And what about your parents? You said your mom was American, but how did your father go about citizenship? Rima: Um, my mom was a US citizen obviously. So she, it, once you're a—when you’re a US citizen, you can give your citizenship to your husband and you can give it to your children, pretty quickly. So we're—all of us were naturalized soon after we came here. I remember going to Baltimore and sitting in a big room, like an amphitheater. And the judge talked to all of us, and told us about, you know, what it means to be an American and we had to—I remember I was a little kid and I had to listen to all this. And, and I wish now I could listen to what he would say, as an adult, but as a kid, you kind of just, you know, you glaze over and not—don't really listen. But he was talking about, you know, how privileged we were to be US citizens and become Americans. And you go through a naturalization process. I still have the certificate, and your pictures on it and it's, uh, officialized and then soon after that you get a citizenship. So. Or you get like your citizenship certificate, I guess. I don't I don't know how it works exactly, but you're naturalized first. And it's a whole swearing in like you have to stand up and put your hand up and swear that you're going to be an American now, and all that kind of thing, what it means so. Maya: And what about your father? Rima: He took a little bit longer. I forget why there was a glitch. It took more time for him as an adult. It had something to do with being a Palestinian. He didn't want—they wanted his �citizenship to say he was born in Israel, and there was not an Israel yet. He wanted it to say Palestine and he fought that for years until it actually happened, and then it did, finally. Like his passport now says he was born in Palestine, which is a huge accomplishment and a huge deal for a Palestinian who, who did have to leave his country at 13 years old and leave everything. Literally, leaving my grandmother left her house and that was bread baking in the oven. So um, you do, they were left basically, they were just pulled out of their houses with absolutely no warning and, you know. So it was a big deal for him to have that, to have the truth be told on his passport and all his paperwork, and it took years, but they did it. He had the swearing in as well, just like us. [sighs] Maya: How does daily life compare, just the day-to-day stuff? Rima: Well, you’ve been to Lebanon, so you know. Lebanon is much more slow-paced. Uh, there's a lot of visiting, there's a lot of, “Come over for coffee,” there's a lot of—you don't even invite people, and they're knocking on your door to come over and just visit and see you and hang out and talk to you so, um. That kind of thing I really miss about living overseas. And it's not just Lebanon, I realize that, it's in other countries in the Mediterranean. Italy's like that, Spain is like that, Greece. They have a much more slow pace and they focus more on family, and, you know, seeing people, and of course I remember a time when there was no internet and there was no phones and none of that was going on, so kids would actually sit with the family and talk more and it was more of that going on than now. Uh, not that you guys don't, but like, it was different. It was much slower paced, there wasn't always something else to do, there wasn't always something to entertain you, so you would go and, you know, spend more time with your family. Now—someone said this once, and it's true—that the youth of today is more focused on, you know, “How can I entertain myself at all times.” You don't just sit there get bored. Kids don't even ever get bored because there’s always something to do. So, um, that's different but during—You’re asking about day-to-day life? Maya: Um hum. Rima: It's just different, I mean this country is so focused on, um you know, since you've come—it’s, it's a great thing—that's, that's why, that's what makes this country so unique, is that it is focused on, on building yourself up and making yourself better and a good job and a good future and saving for the future, whereas other countries, many other countries, especially the Mediterranean, are not like that. It is different. It's much more slow-paced, and of course add to that a war, um. So I’ll give you an example, like during the war, leading up to the time that we left, our family started leaving, fam—one family at a time started leaving. Like we have family all over the world, as you know, we have family in England, in France, in Greece, in, um, Jordan, in Palestine, in Lebanon, and all over the United States, we have family. It's—it's really something when you think about, like, about how much our family dispersed. Egypt. They went everywhere. So, our family kind of got pulled in every direction, but before that they were all Beirut, and it was really cool. So when this war started, um, power would get cut in the evening and there was really nothing to do. You couldn't even, you couldn't go out and just hang out at a cafe or go out to the movies because none of that was going on. It's like the pandemic but worse because it's dangerous. So, people—our family—would go to each other's houses in the evening, �and there was no electricity, so they'd have candles. Everyone had candles, and they put a candle in the middle of the dining room table, and they play cards. And, so people would sit around at the table, all family, all helping each other, and of course you talked about politics and everything like that, but you'd also have a lot of laughs and, I mean, it was just, you know, really, really good quality family time in that way. And we were a little, so we would play under their feet, we wouldn't really be playing cards. My sister would, because she was older than me. My sister was 13 when she came here and I was 8, so there was a difference. Or maybe she was 12, almost 13. And so, she played cards with them, and we would just play under their feet, and they would laugh, and we wouldn't know what was going on, but it was such a good, good feeling of just, you know, you know that you're always going to be with your family. So, coming here, that was a huge adjustment, um. You know, there is no dropping in on people in this country. There is no, um, just hanging out and doing nothing. There's always, you know, there's always work tomorrow, there's always, “I gotta prepare, I gotta save, I can’t spend on this, I can’t spend on that.” You gotta always think of, you know, improving yourself, whereas in other countries, they really, really do focus more on just being together. And it still goes on to this day, it's really an amazing thing, that this country is so different than that. I'm not knocking this country, but, their priorities are different, that’s what it is. Maya: How did your culture affect your way of living here? Rima: Uh, well, our culture is like, you know, I was telling you a little bit about it, but our culture is different than, than—I—see we're a special case, Maya, we—because we're half American, or at least I’m half American, and half Palestinian, and you know, born—born in this other country, our way of thinking is different because, I’ve always said this, like, when you're— when we're in Lebanon visiting, now, I always feel like I’m the American. But when I’m with my American friends here in the United States, I always feel like I’m the foreigner. So you're never really 100% part of either culture. So, you kind of learn to like, assimilate to either culture, wherever you are at the time. Um, it affects—it affects—what was the question? Maya: Just how coming here, how did your culture affect you when you first started to live in America? Rima: Oh. Yeah, I mean, I think our expectations were different of people. Like we expected people to, to be like we were, and to treat us the same way, and they weren't. It was a little bit colder, I have to say, this country is colder, Europe is colder, um, the people aren't, aren't the same. Like over there, if you, if you knock on someone's door, there's no way you're not going to be invited in for dinner. It just happens, you know, and in this country it’s different and so when you come—we would come here, and we would expect the same kind of treatment. It took a while for us to realize it's not the same, you know. And it was—your feelings get hurt, you know, you realize, “Wow, I would do anything to have these people come over and just, you know, spend time with me, or have dinner with me, whereas to them it's a huge burden, and like we—we laughed because, we're not—we don't laugh at first, it was—was just really jolting, like you would be invited to somebody's house for dinner, and they would have just enough food for who, who was invited to dinner. They’d want to know a head count, which never happens in Lebanon. They’d want to know exactly how many people are coming so they’d know exactly �how much food to make. So, we always, and the middle eastern way, is to just, make a lot of food, and have a lot of leftovers [laughs]. So, you know, food is a huge part of our culture. That's one thing, but then, there's other things, like welcoming people in, or if you're going out for dinner, you always invite people, um, you try to pay the bill, you try—and then, whereas here, sometimes, we would feel like they were trying to push the bill off on you. It was different. Um, my father was also more conservative, because he's a Middle Eastern man. He's Christian, yes, but he wouldn't want my sister and I to wear short shorts to school, things like that. It took time for all that stuff to kind of wash away. Um, in the beginning, we used to fight with him, my sister and I, about, because we were different. We didn't want to be different. Back in the ‘70s, you wanted to be exactly the same. You didn't want to be a different—from a different place. Um, that has changed over time, which is really nice to see, because when we came here—and other cultures say the same thing—you just wanted to be an American, you wanted to be no different than anyone else that was here, whereas now, it seems like kids are embracing more being different, and being from different cultures, and it's accepted. Um, so, my father would want us to wear long pants to school in the summer, just because in Lebanon, they didn't, they didn't let us do that. You'll—you couldn't wear short shorts and go to school, it just wasn't a thing. But, if you did that [wearing long pants in the summer] here in the United States in the ‘70s, you'd look like a weird kid. Like, you didn't want to be weird or different. So, there was a lot of pushing back and forth, and pushing the envelope, and getting into with my father, and if it wasn't for my mother, honestly, I don't know how we would be, it would be different. Not that he was so awful, but he was very, you know, he wanted to be—like—he would—when we would get into fights with him about things, he would say, we would say, “Well this is America now, this is how they do it in America,” and he said, “This is not America. This is Lebanon,” and fight with us, and say, “We're living the way we lived there,” and—and it was always this push back and forth between the cultures. So, we had a hard time with that, and if we didn't have an American mother who advocated for us, my sister and I would have had it harder. Not that he was, like, this terrible, conservative person, but he just, didn't want to adjust to, to how it was here. Yeah, took a lot of time. Maya: How did—how did you go about finding community in America? Rima: Um, when people would—what they tend to do, is they go to their churches. That's how you would find a community, that’s how you'd make friends, and actually, that's how your father did that. I mean, he has a lot of friends through his church. And the community, like there's, there's clubs and organizations you can join, where you can meet people from your country, and, and feel more at ease. Um, like our friends now, as you know, half of them are Lebanese, and half of them are American. And uh, you know, the Lebanese side is—is for your father's sake, really. Because I probably wouldn't have friends that were from there, if it wasn't for him. Because, we didn't tell your teacher this, but your father is Lebanese. So, I ended up marrying a man from the same country where I was born. So, it makes, we continue to have this dual identity, because we're both from there, and from America. So, it's, kind of a hard balance. Um, so the way people make friends is like, like I said, we moved to this area because my uncle already lived here. So, we already had some established friends from before, people that we already knew from Lebanon, that helped us get to know more people. And then your church, you're always, that's an easy way to make, uh, to make yourself a community when you go to a new country, is to join a religious organization of some sort. And then you meet other people, �and because they, you know, church’s mission is to welcome people who are new, and to bring them into the fold, and get them involved in community events, and make them feel safe and happy and comfortable in a new country. So that's how most people do it. Maya: And going off of that, when did the United States start to feel like home, and not so new? Rima: Well, I think we were super lucky in that we felt like we were part of this country before we even got here as kids, because my mom is American, and they always told us about the United States. So, we always felt that we were, you know, part of this country. It didn't take that much time, and escaping from the war, it—it helped. We always did feel different, though. Still do a little bit, sometimes. Maya: Going back to something you said earlier, why did you come to the DC area instead of Missouri, like where your mom is from? Rima: Um, my uncle lived in Washington, and we went and stayed with him for about a month before we got a place to stay, to live. And uh, you know, the, that's the way it's usually done with immigrants, is they go to where they have family in order to get them started, like, to help them with a business, or help them to have a place to live while they look for a job. So that is normally how immigrants do it. That's why like, you know, you hear about different parts in the Midwest. And I don't know if you realize, like, there's, in Michigan, for example, there's a huge community of, um, German, because they just, they just—or, Dutch—because they go to areas that already have people that they know. So, they help them along. Maya: How was your uncle here, already, if he was also from Palestine? Rima: Uh, he got a job. He, he lived in Lebanon in the ‘60s too, but he got a job pretty early on and moved here. And he had a Lebanese wife that he—I don't know the process, but they moved here, originally because, um, for his work, and he wanted to live here as well. So that really helped, and then my grandmother came too, so then we all became here, started living here. And then, some of our other cousins moved here and the community grew. Maya: How do you think your immigration experiences affected your life today? Rima: Uh, well, you should probably ask your father about this as well, you're—being an immigrant really helps you realize how privileged, um, people are in this country. Um, one of the hardest things for my husband to see is a young person here, who is, um, um, shunning, or not wanting to get an education, or resisting college, or that kind of thing, because they, they just don't want to. And he always says, he always says, um, “I don't think they realize how good they have it.” And that's very true. We um, we come with, we value this country, I think almost more than an American does, a full-blooded, a person that was born here, because, we see how much privilege, and how much, um, you have at your feet here. If you want it, all you have to do is take it, all you have to do is look for ways to improve yourself, and you can find it. There's a lot of help in this country for that kind of stuff. Um, what was your question again? �Maya: How—you an—you basically answered it, how your immigration experience has affected you today? Does it affect anything day to day? Rima: No, I think you just, you just, you know, you, you have more experience with other things in the world, you have things, unfortunately, with adverse things, things are not—are not good. And you saw other people, and you've seen poverty more than the average American. I mean, I have, and you have too, and um, you've seen what that can do to a family. And then you come over here, and I'm sure you've already thought that—you're only 20 years old—but I'm sure you've already thought, “God, these people don't even know how good they have it in this country, or how much opportunity they have.” Or, you know, what's out there, as far as how people can live, and, just, lack of, like, any hope for a better future. Um, Lebanon is, like, um, a lot of countries, and a lot of countries that were in the past, I mean, like if you were, if you grew up in England, if you were in the, if you were from that part of, that part of the world in Europe like 200 years ago, and you wanted to improve yourself, there wasn't that opportunity. Like if you're like, I've told you this before, like if your father was a carpenter, you were going to be a carpenter, and your father was a baker, you’re gonna be a baker. People classify you, and you can't improve. And that, that is what's great about America, they—people always write about, um, people always talk about and write about how, how the United States is like that, it gives you the opportunities that other countries don't. And I just really wish that Americans could have more of a chance to see what's out there so that they can know like—not every American, obviously, around here, people are well-traveled and experienced, and they've seen many things, but if you go to some parts of America, they really have never left their state, or their region, and they don't know, you know, how good they have it. So, I wish there was a way for them, them to see that. And I think that being from another country and coming here and starting all over, I mean, your father did that, my father did that. My father did that twice in his life, where they had to start over. And they—in this country, people don't realize that that is a huge blessing to come from a strong background where, um, you know, you do have help, you have a future. [phone rings]. Sorry. Anyway. Maya: Okay. If the war hadn't been a factor, what do you think would have been the best for your family long term? Rima: If the war hadn't happened, I never would have met your father, for one thing, even though he lived about 10 minutes away from my house. We never would have run in the same circles, we never would have, uh, left the country, we would—we would still be living there. We, we’d probably have married there, had our children there, started our lives there, because life was good there. Life was very good in Lebanon in the ‘60s, uh, and ‘70s. And, you know, money was good, business was strong, and we probably never would have left, and we would have, um, probably visited here, we would have gone to college there, or in Europe, most likely, uh, we would be completely different people, would probably be talking to you with an accent. [laughs] Yeah, we would be different people. Maya: Are you glad you've had this experience? Rima: Of course, yeah. It made us who we are, I mean, it made you who you are, we—I would have never met your father, I would have never had you, think, like it's funny how one little thing �in life can affect the rest of your life. Um, factors that are beyond your control affect your future. So that's what happened. I mean, I'm sad, because we don't see our family like we used to, and we used to really, in Lebanon, you know how Lebanon is, you know, the area that we go and visit where I used to live, all of my cousins lived within walking distance of there. So in the evening you could go out and go for a walk and go for coffee or, tell your, uh, cousins let's meet at this cafe, you'd see your family, all the time, you’d on their door and go visit them, and that's, that's how we lived. So that is what we miss about that country. Me and my siblings always talk about that, about how, it's too bad that everybody's so far away. Like I listed to you before, I mean, they're literally all over, all over the world. Now, that makes it nice when you want to go traveling, and go visiting, you can go visit your cousins in different places. But, it is sad that, you know, we were all within reach of each other, and then now everybody's scattered. Maya: What's it like going home now, going back to Lebanon? Rima: Uh, well, we're a special case, because I'm married somebody from Lebanon, and we, um, have a new life, and all his friends are, a lot of them are still there. So we still see them, and his family lives there, whereas my family's not there anymore. But—so I've started a new life. But when I go back, I'm, you as you know, every time I go back, I make sure to spend a day or two, in my old neighborhood. And I go, and I, I took my kids, and I walked down to my old school, and I was, and I wanted to see if I could remember the places that we would go. I would take the old routes that we used to take and see if I could find a certain store, or a certain, um, corner, or something that I remembered. And um, you know, it's pretty nostalgic to see some of the things we used to see growing up there. And like I said, we were a family of privilege and we were able to, uh, come and go as we please, and spend the money that other people didn't have then. Um, so, it was, going back and seeing it now, for one thing, everything looks smaller, and everything looks, uh, less grand. I mean, for—especially the first time I went there. First time I went there after leaving in 1976 was when I got married, so that was in 1999, I went there the first time with your father after all that time. And, you know, he did take me around to see all the places where I had been, even to my front door, and we couldn't get into the house itself. But everything looked smaller, and less, just less nice, obviously the country had also been through a war. So things were not as nice as they used to be. But, um, I still, it's still so special to me to go and see the old neighborhood, and to be able to figure out my old paths, and to see my old school, and know how to get places and remember things. And the more you go to places like that, the more you remember. So, I always make a big effort to go and visit my old neighborhood. It's a sad thing, for sure. But it’s also like, bittersweet, you enjoy it. Maya: How did your culture go on to affect you in your young adult life, like past being a child? Rima: Um, our culture always stayed with us, until now. I mean, we've always, um, known that we're from somewhere else, all three of us. Um, I've never felt 100% American. And we've always, um, there's always this thing within your head, there's always a block, you can only go so far as being an American and feeling like you really fit in with that mindset, and they're totally different ways of thinking. Um, as young adults, uh, like I said, we have an American mother. And so, she helped, you know, negotiate for us with my father, and letting us do things, and, um, the Middle Eastern way to raise your child is to have a lot of control over what they do, where they go, who they see, who they go out with, who they marry, you know, they, they never tried �to set us up, or arrange marriages or anything like that, but they definitely tried to guide who we would want to go out with, and who—they would suggest, and you know, try to introduce you to people, especially my grandmother. You would go over for a family dinner, and all of a sudden, some dude would be sitting there, that they wanted you to meet. It happened to Irene a lot, my older sister, because they were trying to get her married first. Uh, so she has a lot of resentment [laughs]. She, she even like, would leave in the middle of, you know, getting there, she'd say hello, and she'd walk right back out, because she'd be so angry. Um, there was a lot of that, there was a lot of expectation, as far as just the logistical stuff, like they wouldn't want us to go to night clubs, by ourselves. And of course, we weren't trying to go by ourselves. But we would try to go with girlfriends and things like that. And luckily, my sister and brother and I liked to go to a lot of the same places, had a lot of the same friends. So, if we left the house, and our brother was with us, uh, it was considered that we were okay, because we will be protected by my little brother, who's basically younger than both of us [laughs]. So, it's really funny that he's our big protector. Um, and the funny thing is, we would go out with other groups of girls and my other cousins who were also Palestinian. And as long as Johnny was along, we were all considered, quote, unquote, safe. And it was okay for us to go, because Johnny would go and like, he'd have, like six or seven girls with him, and he was supposed to be protecting everybody, which is the most ridiculous thing in the world. But as long as he was with us, my, they, my parents would rest easy, especially my father, that you know, Johnny was there to protect us. Whereas half the time, we didn’t even know where Johnny was in a nightclub [laughs]. And so, and then, like I said, not just us, even our cousins, or other friends, close friends that were from different cultures, like we had this Turkish friend, who we're still friends with, and she, as long as she said, Johnny was along, she was she was in, she was okay. And um, a lot of them would sleep over at our house after going out because, they were also considered, you know, their parents wouldn't have to worry about them, because they were home safe with us. And Johnny was there and um, that kind of stuff. Then we all started having boyfriend, girlfriend, that kind of thing. And they also get involved in that area, where they, you know, they would want you, which was a normal thing, you would want your daughter to be going out with or marrying somebody who had a good future. So, they would want to make sure that he had an education, or he had money, or he had whatever in order to take care of you. So, it's very, uh, it's not just cultural, it's also generational. At that generation, they worried about their daughters, and about marrying somebody with money. And it's, many cultures that think this way, and they, you know, they want, I guess anybody would want a good future for their child, and would want to make sure but, you know, at the time [yawns], when you were a person who's 20 or 21, and you want to go out and have a good time, you're not thinking about who you're going to marry. You're thinking about having fun, and, so you resent it and you get angry and that would cause a lot of disputes and problems with my father and my sister and I. So, we get into fights with him about that kind of stuff. Or, you know, if you went out to a nightclub you couldn't wear a really short skirt, or something way too sexy. You'd have to, you know, leave the house with big jacket on because you didn't want your father to see you going out like that, and thinking, you know, that you're up to no good. And we weren't up to no good, but like, he didn't want us to look the part. And so, we [laughs] we still joke around about that now, how we would like, put on jackets and stuff so that he wouldn't see us. Um, just so that we could quickly say goodbye from the door, um, you know, they'd be sitting and watching TV or something, my parents and we go, “Okay, we're going out, see you later,” we all have jackets on, and we go out and take it all off [laughs]. And uh, you �know, things like that, just harmless stuff. Um, you know, I think like, I think I'm crediting it too much to different culture, but it's definitely from our culture, too. Um, and then, we’d have to call and check in sometimes. Like if we were going to a party in high school, we’d have to call around 10 or 11, and then sometimes we’d call and ask for more time, if we could stay a little bit later, that kind of thing. Because our—our curfews were pretty strict. Uh, one time, my sister, who was probably in her mid-twenties at the time, was out at a night club. And after the night clubs, we would go out to eat sometimes, and there was a place that we knew in Georgetown. And we knew the owner, and the owner was a Palestinian, and he had a bunch of kids who worked in the restaurant, and this was a 24-hour place. And, one time my sister was out eating—must have been two or three in the morning, and, the owner—the son of the owner of the place came up to her, and said, “Irene, you have phone call. You can take it in the office, it’s your father.” And my father had called in the middle of the night to tell her that she needs to come home, because she was out too late, and he knew exactly where she would be, and he called her. And everybody, of course, made fun of her forever about that. But that was the kind of stuff, you know, you’d be subjected to, especially as a young woman. Um, yeah. It was a lot of crazy stories, I mean, you’d have to—and still, I mean, I think this is still a very nice thing. Like if you had somebody picking you up who’s going to take you out on a date, he’d have to come in, there was none of this honking business, where you’d run out to the car. He’d have to come in and say hello to your parents. Um, that’s partially cultural, but that’s also generational. And that’s just respect. Um, so we’d have to do that kind of thing, which is totally awkward, because sometimes you’d be going out, just for fun. Like it wasn’t a serious boyfriend, or a serious anything. Maybe it was a first date, even, and he’d have to come in and say hello to your parents. So that was still going on back then. Um, very awkward. Uh, what else do you want to ask me? Maya: Uh, how do you think your upbringing has affected how you raise your kids? Rima: Oh, um. Well, uh, I’ve become very American over the years, and my husband came here in his 20s, and he’s still very Lebanese. He’s 56 now, but he’s still very Lebanese. Um, we are Christian, and so there’s less of the conservative stuff going on, however, my husband does, you know, he—and both of us—both of us, you know, are involved in our children’s lives, and we want to know where they’re going, and who they’re coming with, and what friends they’re with, and if they’re being safe, and the normal stuff. Um, I don’t think my husband is super, super strict on my daughters, but he definitely, uh, frets over every little thing. And they don’t realize it, but when they’re out late, he—I’m not the only one that’s up late, worrying about them. He’s also up late sometimes worrying about them. So, he’s like that, and he, I—I don’t really know if that’s part of the culture or just the way he is. Um, he does worry about them, and being, um, you know, wanting them to be, not conservative, but just not, not—not to dress in certain ways, and that kind of thing, and he does ask me, but overall, I don’t, I think I’m probably the one who gets the brunt of it more than my daughters do, so that’s, that’s definitely evolved since when I was a kid, because my father would come right up to us, and he would fight with us, and my husband doesn’t do that kind of thing, so I think it’s decreased. It’s definitely less than, than what I had to deal with. Um, and raising my kids, of course, I want, you know, we’re very involved in their lives, and we, we very much want to know what they’re doing and who they’re coming and going with, and what they’re studying, and what they, what they’re thinking of for their future. Um, uh, you know. I—it’s very true that I joke around with my friends because, some people I �know joke with me and, and tell me, “Oh, yeah, you would want your daughters to live with you until they got married,” and I think, “Well absolutely I would! Why wouldn’t I?” And they think that is just ridiculous. Like, some of them really laugh at that, like why would you want that [laughs], I’m like why not? Because I did, I guess, um, you know. There is a different mentality, but again, my kids are lucky, because I can think both ways. And I can see their sides of things, too. Um, you know, we’re just kids always come first in our culture, no matter what. That’s how we think. Maya: Do you have any advice, uh, that you would give to a new immigrant? Rima: A new immigrant. Um, you mean from our part of the world, or from any? Maya: Both, in general. Rima: Well, uh. It’s really difficult, to come to a new country and start over. I mean, I was a kid when I did it, but I kind of lived through my husband’s, uh, process of coming here, and of course saw my parents, but I felt it more with my husband because I was directly involved, I guess, in helping him, uh, get established here. But, um, [clears throat] you—you have to realize it’s going to take time, it’s going to take six months to a year for you to feel at home here. Um, you’re going to always miss your country, you’re going to always want to go back. Um, and then, at least visit. It’s really hard not to be around family all the time, whenever you want. Um, this country definitely is more, uh formal, in the way they socialize, and, and things are not easygoing like they are in other countries. Um, but, you know, the positives are, in this country, if you work hard and apply yourself, you really can get somewhere. Um, you can improve yourself, you can improve your family, your parents, you can help your siblings. There’s a lot of potential. So, overall, you have to weigh, what’s—what’s the benefits, and—the pros and cons of living here. And, um, I think most people who move to this country, that’s what they’ve already done, so, they just need to know it takes time. It takes time to improve, and it takes time to feel at home here, and, you know, you don’t have to leave it all behind, you can go and visit. I don’t know. It takes time. Maya: Is there anything else you’d like to tell me before we finish? Rima: Uh, no, I mean, it’s just more of the same. It’s going to be—you know, being from more than one culture, which you’ll probably feel, even though you were born and raised here, and you’re very American in your thinking, you still have a little bit of the foreign part as well. And it, you know, I still, I think that you kids also appreciate the fact that, you know, you have it different than other, than countries in the third world. I mean, I think you both have seen, like what life could be, and what life is for other people, so I think it gives you a special appreciation for what we have here as Americans, and um, I—I do think that you both see that, and realize that, so, I’m glad for that, but that’s really it. Maya: Okay, thank you for your time. � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/9a081f91450d1ac2fcbf9b4b7498562a.m4a?Expires=1779926400&Signature=OqTsmOG3b-eA4dGbXgUknjlja7ajXqlgRHnphzrFruLZmLVMCt8kgHLsQKpnAM8UjpYFGYe6qZ7u0wgdl9zyKYzmZSYj5qjResioduVqXkYCRdmG-TsjVd5psj0Fu1TCn0Zi-Z78zLpGwrv0C8Mv5Ij0PsK7r8Acqpf57iHmTo-tE3ukrdmHB-3DsWtdFLBpaTcivnuYC5SeYq0qkv-IqPx%7E0hCipQblW8JutY6TWZYtPBVypXS6zYBJ256MefaF33EoOQvOR44%7EPBjWk6MNPO69tNRF5xvonSa3QxDDW37C31PQZ1KwdxxxCX58QY5zfp-2uckjt4NsW6g1VS2smw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 9667a544948b6dc366b7480010015321 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2021 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Maya Assaker Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rima Assaker Location The location of the interview Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Rima Assake Description An account of the resource This interview between Maya Assaker and Rima Assaker discusses her life as a child and into adulthood, regarding her experiences in Beirut, Lebanon before and during their civil war in 1975. When she was eight years old, her family finally left their country and immigrated to the DMV in the United States. Rima focuses a lot on her perspective as a child in war, and later shares what it is like to try and assimilate to US culture as an obvious foreigner. She describes how her two cultures clashed. She highlights the importance of finding a sense of community and being proud of one’s culture. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2021). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maya Assaker Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 1, 2021 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf, m4a, jpg Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History child civil war community culture Lebanon refugee https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/36c35e006f8425deb48c76bf2b4a937b.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=YT6F2pk6-%7EUkJ9wjPH9tfKK86aNWBjgm4DGe0szpftiA5MRQtREZCeGRIYJ4jRwD7VJxeTa6hPtMGes7WiBmyQuDBgN1dKrCf72zqOkg1HgdRD9pz%7Eu9OyLKZheKzLR0kBTcFLZwZ2kocgcbYpyO0yf8KlPkJlxY17Gl7-nBPgtUjbrrto2Do3g%7ES5l6lvqWw1KeEemR9JlQRny1zZHqJQUprC9mVL%7ElY6AcczvP45KFWNu1vd3qjR6X9XWbFiTHAWwDxO-72VOmV%7EPJWapSr-qy1zzUnViVkvYPWsHFaSt8cVF97kdF%7EqIIqGVnE3dmuPL5NGZqs0lbrjxBHWS1Bg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2021 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Nicholas Sanzone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Clara (pseudonym) Location The location of the interview College Park, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Clara (Pseudonym) Description An account of the resource This interview between Nicholas Sanzone and Clara [pseudonym] explores Clara’s experiences as a Chinese resident in the United States on a Student Visa. She talks about her first sixteen years in China before taking two trips to the United States, in 2012. Both trips left a deep impression on her; especially about what Westerners think. She recollects the process of coming to the United States, what her Undergraduates school was like at Emory University and John’s Hopkins University, and the work or internship opportunities she took on after earning her degree. She explored a variety of fields in her time here from 2014-2020. Her main reason for coming to the United States was for education and a new world which she reflects upon. Later, she returned to China in 2020 and began teaching in her community. She and most of her family still reside in China today. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2021). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nicholas Sanzone Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 9, 2021 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History China COVID culture education jobs teacher https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/b75157859347211a88b4e00f48317f69.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=Nhm7YUjkuLpGfgMAN2wVz5UP1MNjBm4RBQcGuDpiMRPPcnrUQdf0PHnug3g8hC2d5X5o3aywEGNR-l920a53fdBp2%7Er4Qf0PbKVlTmaqcU9Hz5C9sJ%7E-E5inyv-mU6bWYWQLSQMnEiQDy%7E70L6wPaJIUF4Nh8lepPVJs0JshJhqKNCnLrjh2Vus2yT0Vd3X1zHjnZ4wC%7E2%7ElewheZKataDaJF1ZWAh-b%7E9l7MLiUsuYBJJ6F2%7EuQ5YPkrhy14-4mFkYjtC%7E2yFXB9Kl87MI6vqQki8OGb4Ssc1-LlvSd%7Ekqg%7EfqMM-aBbkN0IeNT9Jx94%7EDaJ-fukoA0HgSO7zKjrg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM a14e5a1892a0433accaca5adb9450281 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/f5c46392158f1786b9cf07adc785369b.m4a?Expires=1779926400&Signature=HjaA1rd4FzXJcqL80F7l7aB%7EnNYt7L%7EWYxFSeXomuatkIWSKkGa61gaMq2hf%7EjY6jBPJc8thBiQqDjUhIL3w-Pp6iFmNnbToVLVk-zk4nFUw0dn4sfqBlsbloDTHL4nagY7eIA1Uzrq8KWS00OiwMlc-gOuFqwbXM8Q4Vg8TiO9g1Hy9rPHmPPDnklG9gXKspt42f86x7y8NppJ9kPgnhkbywBN6kWNlLDFkgo7Z1Y3%7EZ-bKZbUmq2k7mjPik3BQf-4equSyN3-vXKA2QqrchMndxRGzXp3B6TBe0GuRaL5SZjPZN7wO0MDxMvYzo1EhGjEnU63mwRxdIlYvx0p60g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7b3e2f5c8b415fd4c2e7b75533a8eadf https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/3b09602dfb88354faf6296cf3c836db4.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=P1SE5U6Uh-rO4mDiwJndWuxjWAyCEljwHiE42zJXluv0m0clZdtdjDgTI5xCkirq0P7EUOOPXU%7E824efonc2it2kxvcHqyx01Rb1wqpoBhmR5mWzKkqjfK-XVjCrfOpz3KBy8RtnLiJt-LHVevg9pAm5ibACGBDwsDe0umJCmPi-8erTaEl1VykXuEUzJbFQGviEfsZzU6WTyQcXG%7E5ZPTVCxdrl8K%7ELG7ONxKjgPjsfNV%7E5FGZfGKY6sPjNTtfFrCK%7E2atJNZciisuhWRoUuW75k6vKJiEdMSZHwK%7EdWPamxYTd1NAIx6mU-DOXkiZMUlaVuHBO9XJjCLaX6Yv0uQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 0d550c1b8aa2b70fceceb2b0af80a7e0 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland HIST428M- Spring 2021 Instructor: Dr. Anne S. Rush Interviewer’s Name: Duany S. Philip Interviewee’s Name: Betty Junianti Simarmata Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Indonesia Interviewee’s current residence: Perry Hall, Baltimore County, Maryland, United States Date of Interview: March 9, 2021 Place of Interview: In Person, Perry Hall, Baltimore County, Maryland, United States [via Voice Memo] Introduction: This interview between Duany Philip and Betty Simarmata goes into the experiences of Betty, an Indonesian immigrant that has lived in the United States ever since 2004. Although Betty had to overcome challenges when coming to the United States, her experiences in Indonesia gave her the strength to move despite the major differences in culture, people, and lifestyle. Her upbringing in plantation farms, living in the city of Medan, Bandung, and even Jakarta have shaped her identity as a proud Indonesian to this day. Her story emphasizes how culture is important to an immigrant’s life because it gives a sense of identity of who you are and where you come from. Keywords: Indonesia, North Sumatra, Christian, culture, adapt, friends, family, Baltimore Duany: Hi everybody, my name is Duany Philip, and I am interviewing Betty Junianti Simarmata. And today's date is March 9th, 2021. And the location of this interview is Perry Hall, Maryland, in the suburbs in our townhome. So, Betty, how are you today? Betty: I'm good. Thank you. Duany: Great. So, can you tell me where you were born? Betty: I was born in Bah Jambi. It's a very small town in North Sumatra. Duany: Can you explain a little bit more? Where exactly Bah Jambi is? Betty: Bah Jambi, so north Sumatra, the capital city of North Sumatra is Medan. And Bah Jambi, I think it's like three or four hours from Medan. It's a small town belong to one company called BTPN 4. It’s a plantation, uh what is— Duany: Plantation area? Betty: Yeah. Duany: Palm oil plantation. Betty: Palm oil plantation, yeah, palm plantation. �Duany: So, I can assume that you grew up in a palm oil plantation area, correct? Betty: Yes. Duany: Can you tell me a little bit how your early childhood was in a palm oil plantation area? Betty: Yes. So, uh, plantation area so they have their own uh, perumahan, what is it? Duany: Housing. Betty: Estate, yeah, housing, their own housing, so, we live there and they have their own school. So, everything pretty much in there, school, housing, so we make friends with uh with neighbors that have their parents, the same job with my parents, something like that. And it's very, very nice childhood because the housing is pretty nice. They have pretty big yard and we can play in there. It's nice. It's very different with uh city living. Duany: So just to clarify, the friends that you met in Bah Jambi, this palm oil plantation area, your friends who are mostly people whose parents also worked in the same company as your parents? Betty: Yes. And also, uh actually, I was born in Bah Jambi, but I grew up in Mayang. So, because in that uh company, the staff is moving around, so from this uh place move to another place. So, uh after I was born in Bah Jambi, my parents moved to Doloksinumbah and then moved again to Mayang. So, but, the place that I mostly remember was Mayang. Duany: Interesting. Betty: Yup. Duany: So, you—how did that work? You moved to Mayang, back to Bah Jambi, or, was—how was the routine like? Betty: Uh. Actually, with the place is pretty much the same. So, the—and the environment is pretty much the same also. So, just, yeah, just the place different but the environment and the feeling it's pretty much the same, yeah. But we have new friends of course. Duany: Hmm. Betty: Every time my family moved, yeah, we have to make new friends, something like that. Duany: How did it feel for you when you had to constantly make new friends and never have um friends that were long term? �Betty: Yeah, for the first time always feeling sad because I have to leave everything that I loved: uh the—the house, the environment and my friend. But, after a while I have new friends and yeah, I feel happy again. Duany: That’s great. Betty: Yep. Duany: So what age did you—were—so, you said you're around Bah Jambi and Mayang, but I know that in your life you move to another city after that. Betty: Yeah, because when I was in middle school, my dad moved to another island called pop—I mean Borneo. That's uh pretty far away from Medan because Borneo is another island. And because of that, my—my dad uh told us to just stay in Medan, so only him and my mom moved to Borneo, but me and my siblings live in Medan and we went to school in Medan. [Editor’s note: Their mother lived in Medan with them, only their father stayed in other islands.] Duany: So, how’s your family like growing up? Especially with your father in a far location? Betty: Yeah, of course, that's not the ideal situation. But my uh dad thinks that's the best for us because in Borneo, at the time, Borneo, not really very developed yet. So, for school, he thinks Medan is better than Borneo. That's why, even though that's not the ideal situation, but he thinks for our education uh so much better if we just live—stay in Medan. Duany: I see. Interesting. So just for clarification, you moved to Medan at what age? Betty: I think uh either 12 or 13, something like that. Duany: 12 or 13. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: So, keep in mind, my interviewee was born in 1971, 12 to 13. She spent around 12 to 13 years in Borneo and Mayang, and around 1983-ish, early 1980s, she was in Medan. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: So, in Medan 12 and 13 years old, you obviously also had to make new friends as well. Betty: Yeah. Duany: Can you tell me a little bit of your experiences from a plantation area to a big city? Betty: Yeah, uh for this time, move to Medan is very big changes for me because Medan, it's not uh like uh small town plantation. It's very different, Medan is capital city. And yeah, everything so different. So, the environment, the situation, the school because uh school in plantation, you �know, it's in the small town. So, the school the quality is like, yeah, not really good. But in Medan, I went to, I think, at a time in the best school in Medan [laughs], so it's like very challenging for me to—to understand the subject because, you know, I like—hmm yeah, it's very advanced. The—the material is very diff—advanced compared to what I learned in small town. So, it's difficult for me to adapt for the uh for study at school. And—and friend because now uh my friend came from a different background. It's not like in—in plantation, in plantation, we have the same background, our parents works in the same company. We grew up in small town. So, it's like, we have the same background. But now in Medan, my friends came from every situation, their family is different than mine. Yeah, so that's very challenging for me, actually. And I don't like it. Duany: [Laughs.] Betty: For the first time, I think not just for the—it takes—it took like, a few years, maybe until I really like uh can uh really— Duany: Adapt. Betty: Yeah, adapt with that situation. Duany: So, knowing that you have how many siblings total at the time? Betty: Six. So, with me, we are seven siblings. Duany: Seven. Betty: Including me. Duany: Oh, so six siblings of yours. Betty: Six siblings, yeah. Duany: So due to this, at first when you arrive to Medan and how you said it was hard to adapt to the life— Betty: Mm-hm, yup. Duany: Did you—did this—did you spend more time with family and just people that you recognized? Or like people that were just similar to you? Basically, did you just spend more time with your family than trying to adapt to the new life in Medan when you first arrived? Betty: Yeah. Because I feel like more comfortable with my family than uh with my new friends, so I just spend more time with my family. �Duany: So, when you say that your relationship with your family improved after you moved to Medan compared to when you were in the palm oil plantation because you inevitably had to spend more time with them? Betty: Yeah, it could be. But I think I always have a good relationship, my siblings, even though I have a lot of friends, when back in uh plantation, but yeah, I—oh uh I always have a good relationship with my siblings. Duany: Interesting. So, you mentioned before how it took you multiple years to adapt to the new life in Medan. I can't imagine coming from a plantation life moving to the third most populated city in Indonesia. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: When did exactly did you start adapting to life in Medan and thinking, Okay, this is my life and I'm just going to make the best out of it? Betty: Uh I think uh maybe when I—after I was in high school, I'm more uh comfortable with the—with my life in Medan. I think that whenever I was in middle school. And also, maybe because, you know, at that age, I uh from childhood goes to teenager I think that that itself already makes something complicated. So, uh and adding with the moving to Medan, that's why it's hard for me to adapt. But after I was in high school, I—I already enjoy everything. So, I think that uh the things that made me more uh it's harder for me to adapt because I was in transition from childhood to teenager, I think something like that also. Duany: That makes perfect sense. Betty: Yeah. Duany: Wow, so back to the topic of family for a little bit. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: How did your siblings feel moving to Medan? Of course, you said before, you know, you had a strong relationship with them even before Medan. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: But how did they cope with Medan? Do you remember by any chance? Betty: Hmm I don't—I don't really remember. But as long as I remember, I don't think they have a hard time to adapt. Yeah. [Both laugh] Duany: Oh, you believe that you actually had the hardest experience moving to Medan? Betty: I think so but I never asked them but uh from what I saw, it's—it's not a problem for them. �Duany: [Laughs] That's cool. So, once you, you know, you finally matured a little bit you entered high school and you started to adapt. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: You have probably made like some new friends, right? Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: How were—and now you're not like traveling anywhere for like to Mayang or Bah Jambi. Betty: Mm-hm yeah. Duany: Now you have some established friends— Betty: Yeah. Duany: —like for once in your life, how did that feel for you? Betty: I was happy. Yeah. And also, I still uh make a good friend from my best friend from high school. That's how strong our relationship are. Duany: Wow. Betty: I’m still best friend with them until now. Duany: That's really cool. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Great. Okay, moving on to our next topic. So around what year did you graduate high school? Betty: ’90. Duany: 1990? Betty: 1990. Duany: I'm assuming you're around 17 or 18? Betty: Yup, 17 maybe. Duany: So, after high school, grad— �Betty: Or 18 yeah. Duany:18 years old? Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: After you graduated high school in Medan— Betty: Mm-hm Duany: —what college did you attend? Betty: Hmm, Institute Technology of Bandung, in Bandung. Duany: Interesting. So, can you tell me a little bit more about that school? I heard rumors from you before in the past, it was kind of like the MIT of Indonesia, but in Indonesia. [Both laugh] Betty: Yeah, so ITB is one of the best school in Indonesia. So, and it's uh technology school. So, I think it's more like MIT in here. So, for uh School of Technology, ITB is the best, it’s number one in Indonesia. That's why I compare it with MIT in here. Duany: Cool. Betty: Yep. Duany: So, sorry to backtrack a little bit. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Back to your life in Medan. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Despite all the challenging uh issues you've had to face such as adaptation and like how you said the education was much more advanced. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: You still had the ability to perform well to get into the quote unquote MIT of Indonesia. How is that possible? Betty: Yeah, because it's challenging just for—for me for the uh about the hmm study is challenging just for a few months, but after that, I can catch up with the uh with the— Duany: Material. �Betty: The material, yeah. It’s just challenging for like maybe like three or two or three months, but after that, I can catch up with the material. Duany: Interesting, so very on—very early in your life— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —you were born in Bah Jambi, sorry to trackback a little bit. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: But you were born in Bah Jambi. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: You moved to different plantations. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Such as Mayang, and then you moved to Medan, and now, still very early in your life really in the grand scheme of things at the age of 18— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —you are now technically at one of the best schools in Indonesia. How does that feel for you at such a young age, already experiencing a lot in your life? Betty: Hmm I think that’s just uh common. I mean, not for everybody of course, but because uh I have a lot of friends from plantation, so they have the same life with me. So, I think my thinking myself think that, yeah, that's common not just me experienced that thing but a lot of my friends experience that thing also. And because like uh we in Medan, the university not really good, the quality—the grade is not very good. So most of the students in my high school at a time uh we aim for better university in Java Island like to uh University of Indonesia, that’s that one of the best also, or to university in Jogja. So that's why I don't feel like that's very special. I think that's—that's it's common. Duany: [Laughs] So could you say that it was kind of like the—your environment? Betty: Yeah. Duany: You're, for example, when you were in Medan, it was kind of like your high school friends that pushed you and each other to aim for higher education rather than like, your family, parents pushing you or your multiple siblings pushing you? Or was it a mixture of both? �Betty: Yeah, a mix of both, so in my family, also, uh told us, my parents also told us to, yeah, aim high. Something like that. And because like my school—I went to the best high school in Medan. That's why all of my friends like they hmm all of them like try to get into the best university in Indonesia. That's why it's like, dragging me to—to go high also, that’s why, I think. Duany: That's cool. Did your siblings also achieve any high education after high school of any sort? Betty: Yeah, all—uh, yeah, all of my—not all, uh, my siblings, uh, went to university also and my sister went to ITB. And that's from her I—because of her I think about to go ITB also. She influenced me to go there. Duany: [To the listener:] So she's referring to her sister, and my aunt, Elby. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Older sister— Betty: Yeah. Duany: —that also went to the same college as her before my mother attended. So, you could say that she was like—was she your biggest role model at the time? Betty: Hmm, for school yeah, because she’s very smart. [Both laugh] Duany: That's cool. So okay. So now, right, you're 18 years old, you arrive to the Institute Technology of Bandung. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: It’s 1990. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Around 1990. Um. You said in the past that in Medan, it was already hard to adapt. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: You know, because the people there were not all parents—uh sons and daughters of plantation workers. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Now, how is it even different now the culture in Bandung compared to Medan, knowing that in Medan, for example, probably one of the highest Christian populations in Indonesia right now to Bandung an area with a lot of different ethnicities and religions such as Islam. �Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: How is the culture in Bandung compared to Medan or and even Bah Jambi? Betty: Yes, so the challenging mostly because of the culture, if it's about religion. Because in Medan, even though the Christian is like high percentage, but not really higher, it's like 50/50. So, when in Bandung it’s not about—the challenging not because of the religion, but because of the culture. Bandung is in West Java, so mostly the student in there is Sundanese. And because this is the best school, so the student came from all of our in Indonesia from middle—middle Java, East Java, and from another Island. So, it's like, we almost like every part in Indonesia came to ITB. Uh yeah, so it's another challenging, it's a different culture. And also the—yeah because this—I have to study hard in there, because it's not easy. Duany: [Laughs] That's very interesting. I like how you mentioned that. I always forget that the best schools means the best students from everywhere. So, it's such a diverse pool of people. Betty: Yeah. Duany: So, for you having to overcome diversity already in the past— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —such as in Medan, were you kind of used to it at this point, or was it still just even more challenging because the diversity was literally everybody from all parts of Indonesia? Betty: Hmm, I think uh—I think like just the same thing. I—I knew that I can handle it; that I can overcome all the challenging so I uh I knew that I just need some time. After that I know I will be okay, something like that. Duany: That’s cool. Betty: Yeah. Duany: But because of there's so many people— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —of all types, how, in ITB, how did you find your community or your friends? Betty: Uh, for the first, of course, the closest friends come from—my friends in the same major, because in, in ITB, if we are in the same major, so we have the same classes every day, so easy for—for us to make friends and to build up friendship. Because we meet every day, we study together, so we have fun together, so easy to uh build up a friendship in there. �Duany: So, if you wanted to make friends with other people outside your major, or even maybe people outside your graduating class, how was that possible? Betty: Uh we have like student club in here, we have something like that also in ITB. So, in that club, we can make friends with people from another major. So, for example, for—for me, I join uh the name of the club is Unit Kasiniyan Sumatra Utara so it's like, uh called art culture from uh North Sumatra. So—so the base is North Sumatra culture. And in that club, I met people from another major. And also, I join uh Christian organization we call Navigator. So, in that club, I met people from another major. So that's how I make friends with uh people outside from my major. Duany: Interesting. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: So, for example—oh, sorry, just to clarify the cultural club for North Sumatra? Betty: Mm-hm, Duany: North Sumatra is the province where—Medan is located in North Sumatra. Betty: Mm-hm, Duany: And as we know, my interviewee grew up in Medan. Betty: Yeah. Duany: So, it's kind of like a cultural art club related to some things she has probably done in Medan and other—and other cities in North Sumatra. And I was going to ask, umm, what activities did you guys do in that club that related back to, you know, your roots back in Medan or North Sumatra? Betty: So, in that club, we—we learn and also promote the North Sumatra culture. So, in North Sumatra, we have like Batak, uh Malayu, and like, six or seven, or maybe seven ethnic [groups] in North Sumatra, so we learn about that, their culture, and we promote that. So, it’s like we have a performance to—to show people our culture through dance, music, and uh everything that we can. From art, uh painting, something like that. Duany: Cool. Betty: Yeah. Duany: That’s really cool. Betty: Mm-hm. �Duany: And the other club, the Christian club, Navigators? Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Can you explain like, what activities you do at that club or what events? Betty: Yeah, the regular activity is bible study, and sometimes we have picnic together, or we have uh sport, it’s like uh, we call it mini Olympics. So, we—we compete in athletic and everything, just for fun, and to know each other, something like that. Duany: That’s cool. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: I find it really cool how you adapt to ITB. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: One of the hardest places to adapt that you've experienced in your life so far— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —at this point, because it was just so diverse. You made new friends, you joined new clubs. Now, when did you meet your boyfriend that after soon became your husband? Betty: I met him in those two clubs in North Sumatra club and in Navigators. And yeah. [Both laugh] Duany: So, I guess um, what major was your boyfriend at the time? Betty: Yeah, he was in architecture. Duany: That’s cool. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: So, he was actually involved in both clubs? Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: That must be pretty interesting. So, it's like, oh, for you, you must have been—he related to your roots. Betty: Yeah. Duany: But at the same time, also a big fact that he was the same religion as you. �Betty: Yeah. Duany: Which is very interesting. Just a statistic: um Indonesia is a predominantly Muslim country with around 89 to 90% being a Muslim, and the rest of the 8% are divided into religions such as Hindu, Christianity. So, you can just imagine how small the population of Christians are in Indonesia. So, you—he became your boyfriend. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: You guys graduated the same year? Betty: Yeah. Duany: What year was that? Betty: 1995. Duany: 1995. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: 1995, you were 18 when you entered. Betty: Yes, so it’s like 23. Duany: So now, at this point in your life, you are 23 years old. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: So, after graduation, congratulations, by the way. Betty: Thank you. [Laughs] Duany: After graduation, um when did you marry your boyfriend? That is now your husband to this day? Betty: It’s 1997, December 1997. Duany: Interesting. So, during those two years, did you have a job or what were you doing? Betty: Yeah. Duany: After graduation basically. Betty: I worked in the consultant company related to environmental engineering. �Duany: Cool. Betty: Yeah, my major was environmental engineering. Duany: Nice, so, when you married— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —your hus—your now husband, in 1997 where did you guys live? Betty: In, oh, it's kind of interesting because before we married uh my boyfriend then [laughs] he was, uh got internship in Baltimore. So, before we married he went to—he came to Baltimore and he worked like six months and then he came back to Jakarta and we got married in Medan. And right after we got married we—together we came here to Baltimore and stay in Baltimore for one more year and after that we came back to Jakarta and we live in Jakarta until 2004. Duany: So, your husband—well, boyfriend at the time went to the United States in 1995? Betty: No, 1997. Duany: Oh, seven. Betty: Yeah, so we married on December, right? Duany: Right. Betty: So, he came here got internship uh on June, came back in December we got married and right after that we came together to United States for one more year. Duany: Oh. Betty: Yeah so we came back again to Indonesia in 1998, oh, 1999. Duany: Interesting. Betty: Yeah. Duany: So, when you first went to the United States, can you tell me how that process was like at the time? Betty: What kind of process? Duany: Uh for example, your husband had a internship. Betty: Yeah. �Duany: Right? Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: But how was he allowed to bring you? Betty: Oh yeah, we just uh applied for uh so for internship my husband have a H, no, J, J1 visa so, for the spouse the visa is J4, or J2, something like that. So, yeah I just apply for that kind of visa. Duany: And you got it? Betty: Yeah. Duany: Wow, I see. [Laughs] Betty: I think for the spouse is not as difficult as the—like my husband to get the J1 visa that’s difficult because it has to uh company or organization to uh apa nama nya, to give to sponsor that visa but for the spouse yeah as long as—it's not that difficult something like that. Duany: So, did your husband have to apply to the internship in Bal—to the one in Baltimore or was he received the opportunity? Betty: Uh, yeah so anytime uh the consultant that he got intern to, they have project in Indonesia, uh the project that uh from the company that—my husband’s name is Kurnia, that Kurnia work with and then because of the partnership and Kurnia got the chance that got a opportunity to intern to this company in US. That's how he got the opportunity. Duany: Oh, that's really cool. So, can you clarify again, after you were married in 1997— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: You went to the US for one year, nine—so, 1997 to 1998. Betty: Yeah. Duany: And I know that my older brother, my—which is my—also my only sibling. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: He was also born in— Betty: In here. Duany: Baltimore. �Betty: Yeah. Duany: And he was a US citizen because of that. Betty: Yeah. Duany: Even though— Betty: Even though— Duany: —shortly after, you guys went back to Jakarta? Betty: Yeah. Because uh—Ame—United States they, uh what is it called? Like, sanc—there's a term for it that people who was born in here, automatically they—they have uh US citizenship. There's a term for that kind of things. [Birth Right Citizenship] Duany: Hmm. Betty: So that's why even though we are Indonesian, but because Mesakh was born in here, automatically, he has a US citizenship. Duany: Oh, I see, Mesakh, uh is the name of the—my older brother that was born here. Betty: Yep. Duany: Which is also my only sibling. So, when you guys moved back to Jakarta it was 1999? Betty: Yeah. Duany: And how long were you guys there for? Betty: Uh until 2004. So, it’s like five years? Duany: Okay, so five years in Jakarta, right? Betty: Yeah. Duany: Now, you’ve been to—you’ve been from Bah Jambi, Mayang, very small plantation areas, to Medan— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —a big city— Betty: Mm-hm. �Duany: And then college in— Betty: Bandung. Duany: Bandung, and now you’re at Jakarta. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany; Which is not only the capital city of Indonesia, but you could also call it as like the New York City in terms of center of trade, right? Betty: Yeah, commercial. Duany: And also, not having to mention already experiencing a little bit of United States. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: How did that feel for you at the time at a relatively young age already experiencing so much? Betty: [Laughs] Uh, I don't really think of it. So, I just maybe because I am kind of people who like, yeah just go with the flow. [Laughs] So, I don't really think much about it. So yeah. So, whenever there’s opportunity just grab it. And then yeah, just try to adapt and just try to love it. Yeah, for me, yeah, it’s something like that. Duany: So, you weren't—so you—I'm guessing it was very quick for you to adapt to Jakarta’s very busy lifestyle. Lots of traffic. Betty: Yeah, but because even though we live in Jakarta, but we live in area, uh, that it's like, it's not really crowded. So, and because I'm—I wasn't working at the time, so I'm a full time uh housewife. Just full-time mother. So, I don't have to face the all the crowd, crowdness, all the traffic jam in Jakarta. So, for me at the time, it was okay. Because I just stay at home and everything in our—near my—our house, everything in there. So, if I need to go to hospital, or to market, or school, everything in there just close by so I don't need to go outside. Uh outside to downtown, something like that. So, I don't have to face traffic jam and all the crowdness, something like that. Duany: [Laughs] That’s cool. And in 2001, you gave birth to your second son— Betty: Yaaay! Duany: —in Jakarta, which is me. Betty: [Laughs] �Duany: So—but I am Indonesian citizen. Betty: Yup. Duany: How did it make you feel when you had one son that's a US citizen, but living in Indonesia and having another son as an Indonesian citizen living in Indonesia? Betty: Hmm, yeah. Yeah because we live in Indonesia so it doesn't matter, I think. Duany: [Laughs]. Betty: And even though like even Mesakh is a US citizen, but because uh we’re the parents is are Indonesian so—so I think it doesn't matter because I'm Indonesian, even though Mesakh a US citizen, and we live in Indonesia. But as long as I'm Indonesian, I think that's fine. So, the uh the challenging is when we come—come back to US because we are not US citizen so uh I think that's the challenge. But when we live in Indonesia, it's not a pob—a problem. Duany: Hmm, so when did you officially move to the United States? Betty: 2004. Duany: Your—how did the process of that work? Betty: Yes, so Kurnia, my husband, got opportunity to come back to here, to United States. So— Duany: Baltimore? Betty: Baltimore. And at that time, he came here with H1 Visa; that’s a visa for work. And then after he settle like a few months after he got apartment for us, and then he came to Baltimore, to join him. Duany: You came to Baltimore. Betty: Yeah. With you too. Duany: Oh yeah. Betty: And Mesakh. Duany: So, we were living under, at that point, it was called the H1 Visa— Betty: H1. Duany: —but then it got converted to— Betty: To permanent resident. �Duany: —Permanent Green Card Resident? Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Okay, interesting. So, why did you come to United States despite having a comfortable life in Jakarta? Why did Kurnia, your husband, my father, take the opportunity? Betty: Yeah, because uh we think that uh America has a better opportunity for uh better life, better education, especially for you and Mesakh. That's why we take that opportunity because, mostly because, yeah, in here, everything better. So, like the environment, the school, the education, and health system. That's why, especially like at the time Mesakh was in the treatment for leukemia. So that's why this uh to came to America it's like uh very best opportunity for us to get best uh health system for Mesakh, best treatment for Mesakh. That's why we took that opportunity. Duany: Wow very inspiring. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: And now he's a healthy— Betty: Yup. Duany: —guy. [Laughs] Cool. So, how did your family and your friends, such as like you said in Medan your long—your best friend— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —and then friends from college, how did they feel when you announced you're coming to the United States? Betty: Yeah, they, uh, I think they—I don't really—I never asked them how they feel about that. But I think uh they happy for me? Duany: [Laughs] Cool. So now that you're in the United States— Betty: Yeah. Duany: —you start fresh again. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Just like how you have in Medan. Betty: Yeah. �Duany: And just like how you have in Bandung. And even in Jakarta a little bit. Betty: Yeah. Duany: How did you accommodate to this new lifestyle? Betty: Mm, for the second time came to US is, of course, much easier than for—from the first time because for the second time, I already knew about United States. I knew about the culture and yeah so it's uh I've—I think at that time, I feel so excited about everything in here so I don't feel is I don't think it's difficult to adjust. I feel excited. Duany: Cool. Betty: Yeah, no, everything, [laughs] yeah, I don't feel any fear or—or difficulties. Even though there's—there was challenging, of course, but I was excited! Duany: Wow. Betty: Yeah. Duany: That’s really cool. It seems like you have matured and just grew to be a stronger person. Betty: I think so, yeah. Duany: Cool, umm, of course coming from Indonesia, you spoke Bahasa Indonesian. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Were there any language barriers of any sort when you move to the United States? Betty: Of course, uh language is the—the most difficult uh to adopt, to make friends, to—yeah to everything. But I feel like I don't really care about it because I’m I think, Yeah, of course I don't have uh good English or I cannot speak English fluently because I'm not brought with that language so I don't really care about it. [Laughs] As long as I can understand and people can understand me. So yeah, that's what I think. If maybe peep—people uh feel like uh put—no, looked down on me because of that, but I don't really care because— Duany: [Laughs] Betty: —because I think, yeah, it doesn't matter. Can you speak Indonesian? Duany: [Laughs] Betty: No. Right? Yeah. So that's the same thing. �Duany: Can you explain again clarify when and where you learn to speak English? Betty: Uh I learn English back from middle school? Duany: Wow. So, you took the little English you learned in middle school all the way to the United States? Betty: Yeah, but, you know, in school, even though you learn new language, like years and years— Duany: Mm-hm. Betty: —but it's not really help, actually. But yeah, at least I know the uh yeah, at least, I know a little bit even though it's not enough to—to, what? To make you— Duany: Yeah. Betty: —to help you make conversation with someone from another language, something like that. Duany: So, did a lot of learning just come from— Betty: After I live in here. Duany: Coming, watching shows— Betty: Yeah watching, yes. Duany: —in English? Betty: Yeah and reading books. Duany: Reading books in English, talking to people in English? Betty: Yeah. Duany: Okay, that’s really cool. So, when you first arrived to the United States— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —you said you were living in an apartment, right? Betty: Yeah. Duany: What jobs did you work? �Betty: Uh, for the first time I just stay home, and then after a few years, I work in uh dry cleaners. Laundromat dry cleaners. Duany: And, at the time, it was a walking distance of— Betty: Yeah, it's like across the street. Duany: [Laughs] Less than two minutes. Betty: Yeah. Duany: Something like that. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: That's kind of incredible. So, when you first um came to the United States, you did not have a personal vehicle or you did? Betty: For the first time? Of course not. We have uh to use public transportation. Because we don't have driver license yet. Duany: And even when you officially moved in 2004 you still did not have a car for how long? Betty: Hmm, I don't remember, either six months or a year, something like that. Duany: Wow, so how was life like without, you know, any private vehicle and having to rely on public transportations, like bus routes? Was it difficult at the time? Betty: Yeah, of course, it's difficult. That's why we live in city, so we can uh use public transportation. So, it's just like we need to walk to uh bus station. And then yeah, it's not really difficult, but it's not easy too but it was okay. Duany: [Laughs] Betty: We can enjoy even though at the time we don't have a car, but I remember we went to uh places that far away. Maybe we have to spend like, one hour—one—almost two hours in the bus, just for to go to shopping center, or to Annapolis, but we went. We still go everywhere. I mean, we don't want to just stay at home because we don't have car. Duany: Mm-hm. Betty: That's why I told you even though it's not easy, but we're—we were very excited. So, we just go everywhere we just do everything we want to do. Duany: [Laughs] �Betty: [Laughing] So nothing can stop us at that time. Duany: I really praise your ability to adapt and utilize and maximize the best out of your time. Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: Not—and using your disadvantages as advantages, kind of— Betty: Mm-hm. Duany: —to still do what you really want to do. Betty: Yeah. Duany: That's really cool. Umm so of course you know, your whole life you’ve been moving everywhere, you've been meeting new friends. Betty: Mm-hm Duany: How in the United States did you meet new people or find a community? Betty: Of course, the first community we went to is a Indonesian community, so we made friends from Indonesia, we are all Indonesian. And then we went to church and this is new community for us, church, and we went to Indonesian community but in another city from our— the same ethnic, it's Batak ethnic we went to that community. Yeah so pretty much we try to make a lot of friends in here so we can feel like at home because we have friends. Duany: Nice. But despite having all these new communities did you ever have a—a longing, like you miss home, you miss family, you miss your friends back in Indonesia? Betty: Yeah, of course, uh, especially family because friends cannot replace family, you know? Even though we have a lot of friends in here we are happy in here, but still we—we miss our family because like I said friends cannot replace family. So, and uh not just the family itself but also the—the place like because I grew up in Indonesia, so I miss Indonesia a lot. I like miss the food even though I can have that kind of food in here also, but, yeah, the situation is different so that—that things still I miss. That's why uh I try to go home every year, go to Indonesia every year so I can meet family, I can uh feel uh the sit—Indonesian situation again, not just the food but the feeling, you know? And yeah everything in Indonesia, that's why I tried to go to Indonesia go home every year. Duany: Nice. In the summer, right? Betty: In the summer. Duany: So, me and my brother could come. �Betty: Yup. Duany: So just to clarify, we—we go home every summer? Betty: Yeah. Duany: Around ever since 2010 it was almost every summer and we've just still became much deeply rooted in our Indonesian cultures while also still being raised in the United States. So, it's very interesting and I'm thankful that you allow us to experience the Indonesian life despite having a normal American upbringing. So, thank you for that, and um yeah that's awesome! So, you—you found a new community, you took advantage of every opportunity you could in America, and eventually over time, just like the past um 17 years you've been here— Betty: Mm-hm Duany: —you've kind—you just became used to it, you still make new friends, can you just tell me how your experiences are now after these years of being in the United States? Betty: Hmm. Yeah, uh I love United States, I like being here, I love the—yeah, everything in here. All the—all the, yeah, culture and pretty much everything. It's like my home. Not like, but it is my home here in America. So, I think I'm a lucky person because I have two home, Indonesia and America. Duany: Mm-hm. Betty: So yeah, I'm lucky. I—I uh have uh experience to live in Indonesia and United States. And I'm happy, and I'm rich in experience, that's what I say. Duany: That's beautiful. Great. Is there anything else you'd like to tell us before we finish? Betty: Hmm. Thank you for interviewing me. Duany: [Laughs] Betty: Because before you ask me this kind of question, sometimes I don't think about it. But when you asked me and then I think and that's makes me—uh that's a reminder for me that I am a lucky person that I have a lot of blessing in my life. Thank you. Duany: Yep, no problem. And thank you for being my interviewee, that concludes it. Thank you. Betty: Yaaay! � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2021 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Duany Philip Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Betty Junianti Simarmata Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Betty Simarmata Description An account of the resource This interview between Duany Philip and Betty Simarmata goes into the experiences of Betty, an Indonesian immigrant that has lived in the United States ever since 2004. Although Betty had to overcome challenges when coming to the United States, her experiences in Indonesia gave her the strength to move despite the major differences in culture, people, and lifestyle. Her upbringing in plantation farms, living in the city of Medan, Bandung, and even Jakarta have shaped her identity as a proud Indonesian to this day. Her story emphasizes how culture is important to an immigrant’s life because it gives a sense of identity of who you are and where you come from. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2021). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Duany Philip Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 9, 2021 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, M4A, jpg Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Christianity culture family friendship Indonesia religion https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/bfa20ca741ee2154add39d0db5248ebc.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=XDNcIBSQ1t%7Emzxm0digss09JSsHXiphZNXnaXtG2Rg24qoBsy96iON-ZFYl%7E3UHH0QzuMXJt3ju7-eqDEwZJTEt1BZVvbwmTrdNJQ7iFK2mt5ngO9uJbvusxGoY-zLAfZpDwuVLGmzgaaTQQuDVcV-U1LWzVBlKVenGQ75NH9GiwAUAmycfrAP36L7vRaVqe0JAEQsXZ9zRNdCKB8r0183odC3rLa3qu85Fwim1kv2APat%7EB2u9cmpqR2%7ECsDnKbDgloTVM2TpDymb3d3KgncIt3oahXSkRBYQTjfMCiQ-Um9%7EPSXRpGiIq%7Eefhe0qvWpxM9rlszoHWhkmZT6moD2Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2020 Interviews Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Maurice Tchasso Description An account of the resource This interview between Elsa Tchasso and Maurice Tchasso explores Maurice's immigration journey to the United States. Maurice talks about his life in his native country and the reasons that pushed him to immigrate in the US. He later on describes the immigration process and his life in the US. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR 400 (Spring 2020). This course was led by Professor Robert Chiles of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Paulette Elsa Tchasso Madzo Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 12, 2020 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History asylee Cameroon Citizenship culture family food Green Card politics visa https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/6cb37ab343720f9c7c89207c0b9abccb.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=WT3xyCGjPDXHIeLyam0FuViFF6h8rz6iv2DYverev6C8m8g6q%7EIHQ9sWQ0KqKLLWK3u8JBfFY3AsC7vaaaD%7E9lF7zVfpMg-HJJL4q%7Ey04IxYlAIzvur31NNx3MgM1i5ZEzAmRfGU-kIZ%7ElR95oZKAWGLTokuyVZ6dXvYX6dwXn0d573BNEKCpA4piUKSZ1KE5Ls8f0vuFH9I7vxcBs4SBDMa9Mn2K1tZUWGYuWHo7JeQcimZIWsjB9ciUQtLxSld5k6No18XKpmT35juWXFOvF-IUaEBpyMIdsBfYj49sNWr3adg8u9gUxXv8n2DtKjZS-uMmBxSGRaL6ruUFJtVtA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/b23041ba2937cc49bc57f7c67593efc6.mp4?Expires=1779926400&Signature=W3ClSXBFyPgWsqCkeiETi-m4lbOCTlN-R8nFegmyNBoMlIc-1nJfjB4YMJvkmTguuhgBMjkzkQ2vbHSN2L866pVlDVDrL6Kx0VrXo-CHn%7ERX4QBodDunJEaRRUtfhqHlmqoGlHKoA1k40m1N%7E6%7EyGzGBNw2G7IOYvxMGTAgqtaERx49MZ97DPlGmjfTfpWmCAQNFQcPy0ePWV1TH3oQzizV%7E2xn95RvPmyFLa%7ElHypDF8iLUT0cBPhRTuKZdRPlw0Kk2xzUq4aU8lQxmRDBKST0BQOjTRvGCvPZZRH8KX8ZsC4mzt4kl1quZavsMYV3iKKGy7B1ZS5avWNqypcKQ6w__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM dc2451fd07ef76535be3c91f0b4379a4 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/65a06e10da2eeefa9ac0eb6f246ef361.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=XKqjAoTMCaYlfH7nHlxmjq9x2-OzhG1jEO5psFj2oEx5%7ERtXgLiqA7Z-pmazM%7EIBOIIv91I05ndsNsQhRzQQ9A1pZQ6l8hGixtlK6g3ExV5MfqA%7E2UDZGxOxTHnqqkqrwe2WDmb3vOpYmQEMvQj93lMybUc2LiST60bplNQRwiY0lbvnj%7EwEiHPjBViF8NMBVUNUbbI8snhNj913h0V73Yq9akGtpQzOdQkJzrDLuQrOL8HAgnjvmKDnOn9NyaOTUtX26YOn7bFwC61n3Iuto8EPyB3Sh0UW-Hqbyo%7EBq7lsas4k%7EmuLkchdXHh4DTxnMcrgCLnTfb%7EhjGrBH6ViKA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e59e5e51283015245049d2dec80f23cd PDF Text Text Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course IMMR 400 – Spring 2020 Instructor: Dr. Robert Chiles Interviewers’ (Student’s) name: Elvira Nnodim Interviewee’s name: Ana Saravia Interviewee’s Country of Origin: El Salvador Interviewee’s Current Resident: Hyattsville, Maryland, 20783 Date of Interview: April 24th, 2020 Place of Interview: Prince George’s County, Maryland, U.S.A. Introduction: This interview between Elvira Nnodim and Ana Saravia explores her experience as an immigrant from El Salvador. Ana speaks about the stark contrast of her life here in America compared to that of El Salvador. In her native country, she really couldn’t pursue education like she wanted to and also was not given much guidance by the people close to her. Here in America, she is grateful that there are many ways to advance yourself and that there is lots of support for women who have fallen on hard times or need help. She’s grateful that she is allowed to be independent in America and achieve her goals without the help of a man. This interview includes Yocelin, Ana’s daughter, who translates from Spanish to English for Ana and Elvira. The transcript is not written verbatim, but rather it is a summation of what Ana says to Yocelin and Elvira. Keywords: El Salvador, green card, support, assimilation, culture, education, dreams, customs Elvira: Alright, hi, good evening. Yocelin [translator]: Hello? Elvira: Yeah. Hi Yocelin’s mom, good evening. �Ana: Good evening. [redacted information] Elvira: Okay, so I’m gonna start off with the first question. Um and the first question is: when and where were you born? Ana: I was born in El Salvador February 6th, 1970. Elvira: Wow! My mom was also born in 1970. She’s gonna be 50 in December! Yocelin: Yeah! That’s true, she’s 49. Elvira: Wow, that’s really cool. Yocelin: It is. Elvira: Alright, um the next question is: what was life like for you growing up there? Like your family life, schooling, or the community that you grew up in? Ana: I was raised in a very naïve and foreign country. I was living aimlessly with no vision of the future. Elvira: Okay um, the— Ana: Without goals, just living, basically just existing. Elvira: Mm-hm. Okay um, what was your fondest memories growing up and why? Ana: My experience back at home was not good. I was raised without education, without values, without principles, and just living to help my mom. Elvira: Mm-hm. Ana: I was unable to succeed in my education or academically because the school was very far from where I lived and it would take an hour or two hours away, and I would have to go by foot. And that was one of my excuses of why I was unable to attend school. I also got bullied at school because I used to wear a veil and my classmates used to pull on it and make fun of me. So, that is why I was unable to finish my education. Elvira: Oh my god, I feel so bad. Yocelin: Yeah, me too honestly, but it’s okay, she’s strong. Elvira: Mm-hm. �Yocelin: She’s—yeah. Elvira: Okay, um the next question is when did you move to the United States and how old were you when this happened? Ana: I migrated to the States around 1994-1995 and I was 23. Elvira: Okay. Alright, um number five: did you have any preconceived notions about America before you came here? Ana: I had an idea that coming to the States you’re able to get a better opportunity or a second chance in life but I didn’t take advantage of that opportunity. Elvira: Gotcha, okay um. Number si— Does she have more to add? She can also— Ana: The first thing I did was get pregnant with you [Yocelin]. Elvira: Oh my god. [redacted] Elvira: Okay, so number six: can you describe for me like your experience of coming to America and what made you want to stay here? Ana: I decided to stay here because this is where I had all my children and I knew back home there weren’t better opportunities for me or my kids. My journey to the States was very calm. I didn’t have to experience any sexual abuse or any other kind of abuse. But I do remember having to walk day and night in order to make it to the border. Elvira: Mm-hm alright um thank you for that. Um number seven is: when you first came to America, did you experience any culture shocks? Ana: I did experience a culture shock. When I came to the States, I noticed that women in America were so independent. That they’re able to live on their own, able to have jobs, able to have cars, and careers — something that I did not get to experience back home because I never had to work outside of my home. Coming to the States I was unable to experience that emancipation. I immediately found Yocelin’s dad and that dream of mine was not fulfilled — becoming independent and things like that. Basically, I brought that custom from my own country to my marriage here in the United States. Elvira: Gotcha! Okay um, number eight is: do you remember the first thing you saw when you came to America? Ana: I saw a restaurant. I also came across this park that’s located in D.C. �Elvira: Cool. Alright. It’s so cool that you remember that far. You really have good memory. Yocelin: Yeah, she does. Elvira: Okay, number nine: what was your first job and how long did you work there for? An: My first job was being a dishwasher. I had to wash a lot of dishes and the manager took advantage of the fact that I didn’t have many proper skills or any working skills so he demanded that I wash this huge boiling pot. And because I told him no, it’s too hot, I’m gonna burn my hand, he decided to dismiss me. I lasted for less than a year. Elvira: Wow, he was very petty! What? Yocelin: He was, but luckily her aunt was able to go back to the restaurant and I wouldn’t say sue the guy, but she was able to get some money because of what occurred. Elvira: I’m glad she did. Yocelin: Yeah. Elvira: Alright, the next question is: besides Maryland, did you live anywhere else? Ana: I have lived all of my 24 years since coming to the United States, in Maryland. Elvira: Gotcha. Alright, can you tell me how you decided on coming to Maryland and what was your first impression of the state? Ana: When I first arrived in the States, I was staying at an aunt’s house that lived in Maryland. And then, a year after, I met Yocelin’s dad who lived in Maryland, so that’s why I decided to stay in Maryland. It’s okay, it’s not that I really like it, but it was kind of like it decided for itself. Elvira: Gotcha. Okay um, can you tell me what the process was like for you receiving your green card and your status as a legal resident in Maryland? Ana: I already had my working permit and then I got married to Yocelin’s dad so he was able to help me out with my residency and to get my green card. My process wasn’t that long. Elvira: Alright, cool, um. The next question is: how often you travel back to El Salvador and what is it like for you to when you go back to visit? Yocelin: I actually know that question, well, the answer by heart. She hasn’t gone to El Salvador since she came to the United States. Ana: No, I haven’t gone. �Elvira: Alright. Um, has there been a moment where you felt like the United States felt like home to you? Ana: I feel like this is my home because I have more benefits and more opportunities to better myself and I plan on retiring here in the United States because I don’t have anything with my name back home. Elvira: Gotcha, okay um— Yocelin: Oh wait, I think she’s going to get some chocolate, sorry. My sister has been bugging her. [silence cut out of recording] Yocelin: Okay, my mom is here now. Hello? Elvira: Yeah. Alright, mom, um okay. If you don’t mind, can you explain what you do now and what your life is like presently in America? Yocelin: That’s funny because we were having this conversation not too long ago. Ana: This country is blessed because we’re able to have health insurance, we’re able to have opportunities to certain jobs, opportunities to careers, opportunities to better yourself. And that’s something you cannot find back in my home country. But of course, there’s still a lot of pressure because I still have to manage a job, school, raising kids, but overall, it’s a blessing. Elvira: Okay, um the next question is: what do you think is the most important thing you’ve learned about yourself through your experience here and why? Ana: What I’ve learned about myself is that I was able to get a lot of support from organizations or from other women going through the same lifestyle or abuse. I love that when I’m ready, I’m able to go and triumph on my goals without the need of anyone else but myself. Elvira: That’s great, I love it. Um, the next question is: are there any traditions from your home country that you still currently/or used to practice? Ana: Whenever I eat, I have to make sure that I have my stack of tortillas. And making sure that the house is clean and well taken care of. Elvira: Great. Um okay, next one: is there anything that you miss from El Salvador that you still think about? Ana: I do miss my dishes from back home. They can’t compete with the dishes that they have here in the United States. �Elvira: No doubt! Home has the best food, I mean. There’s no comparison. Alright, um next question is: was there anything that made you feel pressured to Americanize yourself? Ana: Learning English. It’s something new to me so I did feel pressured to learn English. Elvira: Yeah, I can feel that. Especially when you’re here as, I guess a grade school level? Because I remember I was pressured to take ESOL in elementary and middle school, so I can feel her feeling pressured to learn English. Yocelin: Yeah, that’s true. Elvira: Okay, next question is: did you speak any English before you came here? Ana: “I don’t know.” That was the only thing that I learned, to say, “I don’t know.” Elvira: Okay. Alright, um next thing is: do you think that being an immigrant and coming to a country that’s not your own and living here, has that made you more accepting of people of other cultures or other immigrants in general? Ana: Yeah. Elvira: Okay, um the next question is: do you feel like you had to push away your own Hispanic culture or did you mesh both American and Hispanic culture? Ana: I had to mesh my culture with the American culture. Elvira: Do you mind giving examples if you have any? Ana: I’ve never had grapes or lettuce when in El Salvador, so in my food, I mix grapes and lettuce in my plate. Elvira: Ooh, that actually sounds good right now. Yocelin: Yeah, grapes and lettuce, it does. Okay, she has this kind of like, stereotype, hang on. Ana: Another one is that when I go grocery shopping, say Giant or Safeway, I like to, not stalk, but to go behind someone that’s American and see what kind of things they get. I do this because I’m thinking that this person knows a bit more of good things here in the United States than I do. Elvira: Alright. But that’s actually kind of funny though. Yocelin: I’ve seen her. It’s like we’re going down the aisle. “She’s getting almond milk, should we get almond milk too?” I’m like “No mom! I don’t want almond milk!” Elvira: That is so funny! �Yocelin: It is. Or like if someone gets one of those plain cereal boxes, she’s like, “Oh wait, we should get that too!” I’m like “No mom, I want something else.” Elvira: Imagine her getting cornflakes because somebody else is getting cornflakes and you wanted like cocoa puffs. Yocelin: Exactly, and it’s funny because she has this notion, “Okay this person knows a bit better than I do, so I’d rather just get what he’s getting.” Elvira: Alright, um I have one more question after this one, and it is: what do you hope that people take away from this interview of you telling me more about your country? Ana: Coming as an immigrant to the United States, it’s never too late to start over and want to better yourself. And you just have to put in that determination to do so. Elvira: Wow, that is great! Alright, last question for your mom is um: is there anything else you would like for me to add? Or you would like to tell me? Ana: People in the United States who have better education treat others fairly, well, with the people I’ve encountered. People who have higher education have treated me with more respect compared to those that didn’t. Yocelin: Yeah, that’s about it. Elvira: Alright. I just wanna say thank you to your mom. [redacted] Ana: You’re welcome. I’m glad that I can help. Elvira: So, this is the end of the interview with me, Yocelin, and her mom. She [Yocelin] was helping me to translate what her mom was saying from Spanish to English. So, I’m going to end it now. Again, thank you Yocelin and I’ll speak to you guys soon. Yocelin: Alright, thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day. I’m glad we were able to help. Elvira: Yup, Goodnight. Yocelin: Goodnight, bye-bye. Elvira: Bye. This is the end of the interview with Elvira, Yocelin (translator) and her mom. ______________________________________________________________________________ �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2020 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Elvira Nnodim Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ana Saravia Location The location of the interview Prince George’s County, Maryland, U.S.A. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data docx, MP3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Ana Saravia Description An account of the resource This interview between Elvira Nnodimand Ana Saravia explores her experience as an immigrant from El Salvador. Ana speaks about the stark contrast of her life here in America compared to that of El Salvador. In her native country, she really couldn’t pursue education like she wanted to and also was not given much guidance by the people close to her. Here in America, she is grateful that there are many ways to advance yourself and that there is lots of support for women who have fallen on hard times or need help. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR 400 (Spring 2020). This course was led by Professor Robert Chiles of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elvira Nnodim Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 24, 2020 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP4, PDF Language A language of the resource English, Spanish Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History assimilation culture education El Salvador Green Card https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/a7a499fd172d9b3f54d2f6828eabd6c8.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=VAqjcrk2%7ECN4AjBTEJu39O7HlNWr7ZbKvrvBAnwbWOf%7ErvTeNBfP4DS6W4eatTibRj7ATJKE4DuhevuRWfPUg6mpRWCcQei1dbgjqVG-ZV0U5r1wALeaPJuhhjRQD51RVEvqpRNkzXxX3gwGbrOti2KXzSOD15HuoE0jVJJfC8fpiIU4Ag8Lah-HyB6btrh33NQdvSpCNG3ua0gDQXthNDV%7EuSog6hiabdnSXbTJON0eNEPXUdpJVxknY0-k5GdoubsZXnMOyPYzqlX5B2ZCinpWAIZdUM%7EP3ZqpxhBm%7EaSWHoHmSahxtLb%7EsaijojAJgsv-wuaOGdrH8I3IH6YApA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/da931a71a4e49263e522c9223c07b90c.mp3?Expires=1779926400&Signature=iY1KZTtfE6wK17tNzwr7HRO3JzmF6EXbv5PuEJIkggLpFL9BZccDWNso4%7Em7pTzC9CXo-PTFlMNMtUNZ%7EjKSPU7nYwmkWppyomj5zKKVaZowwETG-r1l%7Ed18axP7Aw7DbSx8jvrCzjQvgAOcXjAMNqGe0b25GDhnYbSYSjPr9KVlQCvBAs2cS--y8A6fwQQVxb3Ag0vRz3gpE9zTMKcYKjK0jUVytZlfSpMiORZNrGMl6VjPr%7E1Kbu4zaJHk8jI5ndVI1FQHD6sXjZ0%7EhcQwYApSZnt6tHmif9Kwk-eERHLw2FkuuizPxUiJToL8ZwSI%7EvHQnpg3sZmgXhnP02Mcyw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 686596598e19a42824f629111ea6e4e7 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/cf9969bd8af4e11858842bfcb741093b.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=c-tUB%7EDtdkqiCPcaPdI0c-5dmQ1MkLkr-AMBIhXyX00LWcEtmf7fl1PKcjZqeLH3wgZVf4%7EPux2DT8qI3tMCO%7E7OiOUqzAnbLXGXn7CMdC95Lh8dQtRw1JHIwzuga2v03DKci2P7OXJRXE0ValLMlc3rl6sxRWShI4CypTzXtch9-HMf2IWh18BwjmUtDhDZjcL5NiFKdLnCjVnS-xvFXgATp5uN%7EmhKSI%7EF8z0ElTULsUNNAUVjWc-X8OCYn9vMF26Lcikoi8foW9W%7ErLFjFL3-rbhxeY%7EDmZOY5FGgPboASuGYmB44szQAF9nZt6srf-vXIgbP16Js%7EqRUqruOXQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 690a229953be2e9785a4277f348278e3 PDF Text Text Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course IMMR 400 – Spring 2020 Instructor: Dr. Robert Chiles Interviewer’s (Student’s) name: Retu Domnic Interviewee’s name: Nallathambi Domnic Interviewee’s Country of Origin: India Interviewee’s Current Residence: Denton, Caroline County, Maryland, United States Date of Interview: April 28, 2020 Place of Interview: Denton, Caroline County, Maryland, United States Introduction: This interview between Retu Domnic and Nallathambi Domnic goes in depth on what the immigration process was like for Nallathambi Domnic and his family. Nallathambi Domnic is a 52-year-old Indian American who was born in India on September 23, 1967. He then moved to Bahrain in 1991 in order to provide for his family back in India. He met his wife in 1992 back in Bahrain as they were working for the same company. They then had their child in 1999 and migrated to the United States of America in 2003. Nallathambi’s dream was provide the best education for his child and he believed the American school system was the best. He also wanted better job opportunities for his line of work which would be possible in America. Keywords: India, Tamil, assimilation, biculturalism, green card, visa, culture, Asia, race, immigration, family, Indian, jobs �Retu Domnic: My name is Retu Domnic and today I will be interviewing Nallathambi Domnic who is an immigrant and also my dad. Can you please introduce yourself? Nallathambi Domnic: My name is Nallathambi Domnic. Retu: Okay, and we can go ahead and start with the questions. Um so, what was it like back home? Nallathambi: I am [part of] a family of six. I am the fourth member of the family, like uh after my father’s retirement from a government company, I was the only bread winner for my––the whole family, so I had to come out of the country to earn a living. So, I was working in Bahrain for almost like 12 years then, then I thought I could migrate to U.S. for the better fortune and prospects. Well, my daughter was born in Bahrain, like so we left Bahrain around 2003 June when my daughter was 2 and a half years old. The main reason for us to come to U.S. was uh for better prospects and uh my daughter’s education because we were in the Gulf, the education was not much to do after your high school graduation you have to look for a new college elsewhere so that’s a reason we thought we could move to U.S. Retu: So how was it possible for you to come to America, like what was that like? Nallathambi: When my daughter was born in Bahrain, I just was browsing, that’s the introduction of the new internet system, so I was just browsing all the companies in U.S. in my field what I was working for. And uh I got an opportunity to just apply for a few of them, maybe around 20 or 25. On that 6 responded and 3 were very much interested in me, hiring. So, I just went through the process. During that time one of my brother-in-law was in New Jersey who used to help me out during the immigration process with the lawyers. Then um the––the company which I came for, the—the boss was very accommodating and helpful in during the process so it’s a long process to come to U.S. So, we have to file a H1B visa to––other then––I mean to say it’s an employment visa to get into the country. So, we applied, and it took almost 6 or 7 months to go through the process and I got it approved. That’s––that’s the reason I’m here today. �Retu: Okay, so what did you have when you first came to America, like did you have any like money or like valuables? Nallathambi: No when we started from Bahrain, we had to leave everything there. Like uh we couldn’t bring much only rather than some U.S. dollars, like we converted everything there and brought around $2,000. The rest we started from the scratch here, all the housing and things like that when we [I] started new job. So, we started from the scratches. Retu: So, were you the only person working in your family at the time, when you first came to America? Nallathambi: Yeah, the visa, H1B is only granted for uh me, and my wife and daughter were [my] dependent. In other words, uh it’s called H1B and the dependents are H4. H4 visa, the people are not eligible to work, so. And my wife was uh––she is a master’s degree holder and uh unfortunately, she was not eligible to work. Um so, she used to be my de––she was legally here, me and my daught––she and my daughter, but my wife couldn’t work because of the immigration policy. For almost ten years until my status––not status, I mean the immigration policy changed, my wife uh couldn’t work legally anywhere. Being [having] a master’s in accounts, she couldn’t—she got a job, but she couldn’t work legally. She used to do all the voluntary work in the church, local community and she was doing the tax preparation for AARP voluntarily without any monetary benefits. So almost ten years, then uh like in around um 2014 or ‘15 I think the immigration passed a law like uh that dependants can work like who are fighting for their permanent residence, um and that is still uh on process like the dependents can work. So there, after that only, Retu and my wife, Anne, got their work permits. Retu: So, what was it like when you first arrived to America? You mentioned that your brotherin-law helped you? So, was he like a part of settling you in or how was it like first coming here? �Nallathambi: In 2003 June, I just landed in uh JFK, that was in New York, but my work was in Maryland, Denton, Maryland. But I happened to meet my brother-in-law in the airport who drove me to New Jersey. So, from there we used to commute because initially we did not have a house, I used to just come and go on a weekly basis, just see the places. First, eh I bought a––I got a room in a—in a Countryside Inn for a week and I stayed there and uh go to work then slowly, slowly tried to get a rented place where I work. Then finally after a month I moved my family here. ‘Till then they were living in my brother in law’s house in New Jersey. Uhm. Retu: So, when you settled down in Denton did you join a community of other Indians or did you join a different community? Nallathambi: In Denton we don’t have much Indian community, so we had our local church community where we part––we have active participation and—and my wife used to do lot of voluntary work in the church, so we got involved in the local community as church. Retu: So, do you wish that was different, like do you wish there were more Indians where you lived? Nallathambi: Yeah of course I wish, but fortunately or unfortunately I got a job in Denton, Maryland (laughing), so I––because when I come to the country, I cannot just skip job anywhere as I want because the immigration policy is such, I have to get a sponsorship or an employer to sponsor me to get––‘till I get my green card. So, I had to work for certain companies or a certain employer. Retu: Is there anything you regret about that? Like coming and working for like one company? Nallathambi: Yeah of course I regret because, usually we like to live in a––with our own community, like the Indian community, but unfortunately, I did not get an opportunity to mingle because all I––if I have to mingle, I have to go drive out like one and a half to two hours away, to just to get along with the Indian community that was not possible every time. So yeah, I do regret for coming and �joining in Denton, Maryland (laughing). And I also regret that my wife, uh being a master’s graduate, could not be employed uh to support me (clears throat) for almost ten years she was just doing some volunteer work in the church and helping the local AAR––AARP for the tax returns and all she used to do in the library. Other than that, there was no monetary benefits, which was difficult when a child like Retu was growing up, like she couldn’t do much in a monetary, only my earnings were the only thing, it was tough for us because just we moved from another country, and we have to start from the scratch with one employment we had really a tough time but we just managed. Retu: Do you think if Retu would have grown up with the Indian community that she would have grown up differently? Or like–– Nallathambi: Yeah, of course she would’ve gone different uh ideas and getting along with friends because now she is isolated when she meets any of our Indian friends, where she has to get into the groove to learn more things because whatever we learn at home is different from the community. So yeah, she was really lacking of that kind of uh involvement with the community, yeah. Retu: So, do you want your child to assimilate into American culture, keep your roots, or both? Nallathambi: I like to do both, as Retu is doing from the beginning. My wife also had the same idea of doing both. She put her in different ballet classes and the American dances and also simultaneously she taught the Indian classical dance, Bharatanatyam, which she is also learning and uh, as for the dances, even the culture we like to mingle with other Indian community and the American culture also. So, I prefer to do both for Retu. Retu: So, did you ever visit or like go back to your home country? Nallathambi: Yea the H1B visa its uh—it’s uh, validity of the visa is like six years, so within that six years, the employer has to file for a green card, the permanent residence, so through the employment process. Then in the meantime, once it’s approved �then I could stay longer, so during my fourth year, almost––first, every three years we have—like for six years term, like three years we have to renew our visa, the H1B. So, we have to go outside the country to stamp the visa and come back. So that’s what I did like in 2007, ‘06 I think, April, we had to go out of U.S. to India, to get it stamped for the renewal. So, I filed the renewal from the old company, and I left the country, so the papers were in the immigration for the renewal process. So, once I went to India my––the old boss where I was working for, he withdrew the petition because he ran out of business so unfortunately, he has to–– the business was not going good, so he was rel––he was uh liable to me, like when I come back, he has to give an employment. He was selling—wanted to sell the company so he withdrew the petition which I filed for. That if he would’ve done here, I would’ve gotten another job and got a sponsorship but since I left the country, I––I––there’s no means of coming back because the visa was expired, I was there for the renewal to stamp the new visa on the passport and come back. So, when he withdrew the petition, I––I got stuck. I couldn’t come back, so I had to look for another. Because Retu was studying at the time, she had just uh finished her schooling in April, and we had to come back for the next uh year, beginning like before like from August or something, but we couldn’t come because I was not having a job then I found a job in New York, through one of my friends and I uh got it. So, the immigration process took almost six/ seven months to get it approved. So, finally we came back on 2007, February. We left the country on April 2006 and came back around 2007 February. So almost seven months we were in India, just doing the––getting a job and filing for the immigration. So, it was a tough time for us, because whether we are coming back, we were not aware, we were not sure of it. So finally, we came back in 2007 February. Retu: Does that make you frust––frustrated with like the whole immigration process? Nallathambi: Yeah, of course uh it was uh, too much frustrating because I got a job, but the paperwork took––filing through the—through attorney to the immigration, it took almost seven months to get. Because the employer said it’s okay, I—I have a job, �but to go through the process it almost took seven months to get it approved. Yeah, it’s really frustrating because uh I was not working for seven months, I couldn’t work there or here, so it was tough time for me and my family. Retu: So, do you think you working in New York for that amount of time had an effect on your family? Nallathambi: Yes, of course because I used to come home only on the weekends, I couldn’t do much for the support the family, just only earn. All the things was taken care of by my wife for the daughter like schooling, uh going taking her around for all this community work and things like that. It was tough on me, just being there for the whole week, coming only for the weekend. And also, it took a lot of toll on my wife’s health too. She couldn’t––that’s the reason we lost her. She used to care more for the family and do stuff and don’t––did not care much for her health, and wouldn’t say anything that she had issues, because of the situations. Yeah, I wish uh if the immigration policy was good when we come to the country, we can go anywhere as we want to work. We were lacking on––I was lacking on that. So, I couldn’t come look for loc––another job locally where I could commute every day from home. I––I stayed in New York for the job. That’s the reason like uh, it was tough for us the whole family for almost ten years ‘till we got the green card. Retu: Would you ever want to migrate back to India? Nallathambi: No, not at this point because when we came here uh my wife was––the second reason to come here one was my wife was having breast cancer when Retu was like two years old. And uh she had a mastectomy on her left breast. Then we thought we could do for a better treatment here, so that’s also another reason to come to U.S. Yeah, she was doing good like every year we used to have a thorough check up but uh another time, like around 2013 she had another lumpectomy in her other breast and yeah. It was tough for us like uh whenever these things happen, and finally in 2000––2019, September, she––we lost her. Unfortunately, she had another, the cancer had spread all over her body and it was �so severe and she was under treatment but we never expected this would happen, but unfortunately, we lost her and at this point I don’t think I could migrate back to India, because with all this situation we came across here, we like to live here. Retu: So, if you didn’t have your green card and your like permanent residency um and you were still under H1 visa would you––would it be different like then would you want to migrate back? Nallathambi: Yes, of course because no point in just staying every––working for three, three years extension because it costs more money for the renewal and also its very tough to like with the salaries we have, unless we have a green card or permanent resident, yeah. Retu: So, do you feel you are treated unfairly in America because of your race? Nallathambi: Uh yeah, I feel sometimes because, of course, I’ve been treated differently but indirectly, in other words like uh I did my degree back home, I didn’t do my education here and it all matters here because after I got my green card I was trying to apply to a lot of companies for the same pose what I worked for, but there are lot of vacancies around but you know it all depends, like it’ll come to the final phase of the interview and they’ll drop you off because I don’t have a education here. I did only, like back home, all my educations are––since I didn’t do that’s a––I feel that’s the main point for me to be dropped off, or so I am lacking with that kind of situation, so yeah, I do feel that. Its uh––since I have been come from India it all matters. Uh they say it’s like uh, it’s, what to say, like yeah. I feel the discrimination is still going on. In my case I could really feel it because of the employment. Uh everywhere I go I really been treated that. I don’t know how long, but now I have been in a better place to work. Retu: Other than like getting jobs, have––have you experienced like getting treated unfairly like in everyday life? �Nallathambi: Yeah, everyday life, actually even the job I say, like I—I am from the––I was the project manager in a sign company where I worked, all my years almost 20, 25 years, but now I work for a retail company because I have not been given a job, like what I was, in the local companies where I live around. Retu: That you are qualified for? Nallathambi: Qualified for. I am not getting it so I have to go to another field, start from the scratch, it takes lot of time and effort to come back and start a new job but situation is there, that’s what uh–– Retu: So along with that, um your wife, was she––like her education was it like banking? Nallathambi: No, she was basically an accountant, master’s degree––master’s in accounts but she also, the same way I’ve been treated, like wherever she goes, “Oh you have a beautiful like education,” “You are qualified,” but when it comes to the final thing, they say, “We are sorry,” because it’s all about––it’s kind of a discrimination because they don’t give a job since she has not done her education here. And finally, she ending up getting a job as a bank teller being an accountant so that’s really unfair, but what to do, we have to survive, we have to get a job so she was working there for almost four years. Retu: So, in the future, do you think like things will change and people will not be discriminated against? Nallathambi: Yeah, of course I do believe because it all depends on the immigration policy because once the people come to know about––because nobody’s aware of this kind of situation, locally. Unless if we’re in of course in New York City or Jersey or Washington, Baltimore, you see people coming under H1B on a regular basis, people are aware, but locally, like Denton, Maryland nobody is aware what is H1B. So, unless people come to know what we are, because they think that we are just coming to the country and getting their jobs, it’s not like that. We have been qualified and we are––H1B is a speciality occupation job, so immigration will not �just approve a job, or we come here just like that. They––it goes almost six, seven months for the process. So, they filter all the things and then give an approval. So, when these things come up to the higher level, I think everybody comes to know what we are, and the discrimination automatically goes down and people respect, it’s not a kind of respect, at least we could get along with people freely as the others do. Retu: How did you hold on to your culture or like what have you done to hold on to your culture? Nallathambi: Just doing the basic as we did from the childhood. There’s nothing new for the culture to, we have already been used to it. So, we just came here like ten years back, but only thing we tried to––me and my wife tried to implement all these local, like the culture towards Retu because she was growing as a kid, uh the more thing is we used to take her to a lot of Indian um gatherings and friends and families we move around and also watch the international channels from the––the back home channels to keep her more uh involved in the cultural activities. And also teaching her the cultural dance which she is now doing uh every year recital on that uh dances, so. Retu: So, finally, what do you hope people will gain from your story? Nallathambi: Yeah, the main thing people will come to know is like the process of the legal immigrant and the illegal immigrant. As we know, in America there are so many illegal people coming to this country. And once they get a case filed on their name, and within like three––two to three months they get their all facilities like food stamps, medical, everything is government––okay, of course they pay back when they get a job, but—but legally when people come in, there are so much restrictions. We don’t have any––only thing we get is salary we get paid for the work we do. Apart from that we don’t get any benefits like uh especially for the dependents, even if they are sick or anything, we have to go on our own to get medical facilities and stuff like that. But now, of course things have changed. I’m �talking about like ten years back. It was so tough, we did not have any insurance in the company, we were not given. So, when we come here, we just work and take––and we pay taxes as a regular local Americans do, but—but uh the benefits, we don’t have anything as an immigrant. We’ve gone through a lot. Because with one salary, it was not enough for the whole thing to go. Um it was really tough on us. With my story, I just conclude saying that in future maybe the immigration policy can be more friendly towards the immigrants. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2020 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Retu Domnic Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nallathambi Domnic Location The location of the interview Deton, Caroline County, Maryland, USA Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data doc, MP3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Nallathambi Domnic Description An account of the resource This interview between Retu Domnic and NallathambiDomnic goes in depth on what the immigration process was like for Nallathambi Domnic and his family. Nallathambi Domnic is a 52-year-old Indian American who was born in India on September 23, 1967. He then moved to Bahrain in 1991 in order to provide for his family back in India. He met his wife in 1992 back in Bahrain as they were working for the same company. They then had their child in 1999 and migrated to the United States of America in 2003. Nallathambi’s dream was provide the best education for his child and he believed the American school system was the best. He also wanted better job opportunities for his line of work which would be possible in America. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR 400 (Spring 2020). This course was led by Professor Robert Chiles of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Retu Domnic Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 28, 2020 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Asia assimilation culture family Green Card H1B India jobs race visa https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/8172bbf9c225b9cb36a9c88698dda68c.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=jp6qREp8vewU-TnoXFSRw5bVEoMtqBjGA8g1-Kc7IKrOHTy4bmdlwdnmJSR4y0qNHjVGu2ZUi2eancVL%7EcKZO0iZQPyhHFVuJfh9wy4TbPGaG0cjJ4fG6U4ThHufpPxcLIm36DfnWBo9jUITRAtpQ6vbuys67SU-yZ-u0-NyQ5mbbm6Tye5jV5%7EO51UY8EEgw1BkOoT3q48AhdtVjwM6Z4gcSnzQsLiyJThNFtVr5Nrd%7EBMIOcwBrWGeQd2cNPVpyGm45fraIgIpuBme2c5ufL5%7EP7vzx6v%7EMgvlMDpG7%7ENLh-1E6COmkf4kEZ5LiyLtDRIWH1cYbA62fEDp32yyQg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM ab679b6019a1be7af8867ecc320eaa8d https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/344df88710d8dc58f288c85f36d79df1.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=beWVzB3EUI9VD45HES3V5TYIq5c9vbHYJgDfDVB3tqXFfTu9AMrtttbt8y7kIDOGvLSOZ7cYfodO6YNvxA5Bjk1GPXx%7EFLGn-b1E-UxyGTttoUhkYDjCTk0u-S1FWkJvA3tsWyQnM1AOZlg88lxwdEc1sC%7E6d56TwnUnPWuw5x8U3Dp3QryEpgBP5ocSZpJXg31TK0b0uLKQP6TEceKZ5KE-2MdApzanIfDbqQ7GKhn82TdzDoOlpuXExdHMNMEKXkIz1xLX30r2ns5L3aFGfYhDmMZqBKGpnhl%7EydOL0T0lQgglXCm9GelJZ7TlNFf3SuZJ-MneGfMO3YLSskLXCQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 04fd365a6a61ec7d010e6b4880ee885d https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/d501896384ff2eccce6a1464c82509cd.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=uWNMFAnzVRbSloh9gSTp2vxzvv8xtdy8WLiC5XvyNhE81dr5Fdn06DezZWK7cavJBAIumhFqzu5A7VFvD%7EHY4bMAZooMJUoiH5UXPLQm3GkteEW3JTDdPMm-A3SKi%7EiV0z75ZAmL-2k1hzvG%7EiDRsc%7E7lC9NkPl68etkcFtsoAmHy8XfKOHlrhPCquWV2BG54-msEjbUUNe4kK%7Erm4dAvr%7EcuYSv8cAgRsZzgRXt6Cx8C0PH8tcfeg595TFqTVcAwz8qmYyXNMKizfd7AGQcA3U-LCfCKhzDu1h039RB5Sbo2NSWymLnTItef1RketI1mXofD6-jsvY7Hf-xCN54xQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 66b72d5f1df097684bd7fc6714eca3dc https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/5d4a95ed77878ef0b608152a296f41ba.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=ltxeNCaNwryQjJ%7E9DfPhABaDDn5mW0Y32idsnY6ori4bnxFb0mO-xgOojzvMU2DJzK0v9MBbOTALS4kICXAATlj-27fsAgg6b5s3nvyH9OcN7mCzsp8jgnBixJW20mN6zZs5qZpZbsB0BJRlVshbuf0n5TpzsiipqSj-MoCBl6fQcrzd%7EIyQBTGMGtfB5ZZn%7EV8dx6RR%7EQcH2%7EzuPFjae8DyCIZZ8nBHF23SUzehIHpD3UB5XL1nmuw2eomQ1ORvBnREBnozpHLpr0BZbtRyzADafIi85jGOTZV8i0sWVAFQPCmPe-48qPbBL4wb2AgoK4r50MfLdlft49omPcMM2A__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 5f25c60144ebbc2e1665595d8a90d2c5 PDF Text Text 1 Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course HIST 428M - Spring 2020 Instructor: Dr. Anne Rush Interviewer’s (Student’s) name: Micayla Wilson Interviewee’s name: Franka Wilson Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Trinidad and Tobago Interviewee’s Current Residence: Catonsville, Baltimore County, Maryland, U.S.A. Date of Interview: March 6, 2020 Place of Interview: Catonsville, Baltimore County, Maryland, U.S.A. Introduction: This interview between Micayla Wilson and Franka Wilson discusses Franka’s journey from San Fernando, Trinidad to Baltimore, Maryland as a child, and her subsequent settlement in the DMV area. With strong ties to her mother and grandmother, Franka touches on the familial bonds she clung to while transitioning to life in the US, both as a recently immigrated adolescent and as a young person navigating adulthood. The interview also reveals the significance of maintaining cultural ties, as Franka’s continued efforts to maintain connections to Trinidad and the Caribbean at large allowed her to ground herself in her West Indian identity while living outside of the country of her birth. With an emphasis on both cultural heritage and her family, Franka affirms that, despite living in the United States, home is both Trinidad and wherever her two daughters are. Keywords: Trinidad, Caribbean, family, motherhood, education, identity, race M. Wilson: Hello my name is Micayla Wilson, I am Interviewing Franka Wilson, my mother, on the sixth of March 2020, and we are in Catonsville Maryland. Hi Franka, or Mummy (laughs) how are you today? F. Wilson: I’m doing well. M. Wilson: Okay. (laughs) Um so just to start with this interview, where were you born? F. Wilson: I was born in Trinidad, West Indies. M. Wilson: Okay, what town? F. Wilson: San Fernando. M. Wilson: And tell me a little bit about San Fernando. F. Wilson: San Fernando is one of the main um cities in the south of Trinidad. M. Wilson: What else about San Fernando sticks out to you, anything um interesting or unique? [inaudible] F. Wilson: It’s very um diverse. Some people say it’s like the country, but I beg to differ. Um, there’s a lot of diversity meaning um there’s blacks and Indians, mixed, um people, um yeah, I— I really like it. M. Wilson: Um-hm and tell me a little a bit about San Fernando when you were a child, back in your childhood. How was that living in San Fernando? F. Wilson: San Fernando was great, um— M. Wilson: Any memories? �2 F. Wilson: I remember going to school, some of my friends going to school. I went to um an Anglican school, which is, I guess the Americans call a, um, what is it? Episcopal school. An allgirls um Anglican school. Had a lot of friends. Um on Saturdays, some Saturdays, we would go down to the sea. We call it the sea. Um, my grandmother—I stayed with my—my, I stayed—I lived with my grandmother. Yeah, we had a—I had a—a lovely childhood in San Fernando. M. Wilson: Okay, and what date were you born again? F. Wilson: I was born on May 23, [pause] 1965. M. Wilson: Okay wonderful, um and could you describe a typical day for you as a child back in Trinidad, back in San Fernando, tell me a little bit about it. F. Wilson: A typical day involved going to school, um, coming home for lunch, we um—the school was not—not far so we would walk to school and then we would come sometimes we would come ho—well not sometimes. We would come home for lunch, eat lunch, and then go back to school. Um, after school we would walk home with our friends, do our homework, um help my grandmother with any—anything she needed help with. Um, that was a typical weekday. On the weekends we would basically play. M. Wilson: Okay. F. Wilson: All day. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Or do homework. M. Wilson: What kind of games? F. Wilson: Um we’d play, we call it munny-pully, you all call it Monopoly. Um, played check— uh checkers. Played with our dolls, um, you know, fun stuff. And then you know on Sundays we would go to church. Not every Sunday, but we would go to church. M. Wilson: Wonderful. So, what kind of work did your grandmother do? Was she the main um, before we answer that question, was she the main guardian of the house—was it just your grandmother? F. Wilson: Yeah, she was. My grandmother, oh, bless her heart, we love we loved her so much. She was the um, what do I say, she was the main person in the house. Her husband died and left her with eight children. Um, my mother was one of her children, um and so she yeah basically was the main, the head of the household. M. Wilson: And what was her name? F. Wilson: Her name was Veronica Carter. M. Wilson: Wonderful. And you said “us, left us in the household.” Who else was in the household with you? F. Wilson: Um my brother and my cousin. M. Wilson: And what were their names? F. Wilson: My brother’s name is Roger, and my cousin’s name is Cheryl-Ann. M. Wilson: Wonderful. Um and what kind of uh work was your grandmother doing? Was she just at home? F. Wilson: Yeah, my moth—my grandmother was a, uh a homemaker. M. Wilson: Okay. F. Wilson: I think before, um, when she was younger, she was a seamstress. But um you know when she had the kids, she was just a homemaker. M. Wilson: “Homemaker,” what does that exactly mean? F. Wilson: It’s like a housewife basically. �3 M. Wilson: Wonderful. And um eventually you moved from San Fernando, um. Before moving, uh, what were your expectations of the US? F. Wilson: Um, basically what you saw on television. I thought everything was gonna be bigger. I thought that I was gonna meet some movie stars. Like Leif Garrett. Um I thought everything was gonna be you know much bigger and faster yeah. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And why were you moving again? [inaudible] F. Wilson: Because my parents were in the US, they were in Maryland um and they were able to send for us. They went up before us. I think they went to—where did they go? They went to— where did they—I think they went to St. Croix first, and lived there for a couple of years and then they moved to the US and got you know settled, and then they sent for my brother and me. M. Wilson: Wonderful, and what were your parents’ names? F. Wilson: Patricia Thomas and Samuel Thomas. M. Wilson: Wonderful, and where in the US did they settle first? F. Wilson: They settled in Maryland, Baltimore, Maryland. M. Wilson: Baltimore, Maryland. So those were your only two contacts before moving to the US, your father and your mother? Or did you have any more family members who were living in the US? F. Wilson: Um, no I had c—I had relatives that were living in Canada. But in the US, I think yeah, they may—they may have—I had uncles, well I had, there, my dad’s unc—brother was in the US, but I didn’t know that at that time. M. Wilson: Okay. F. Wilson: I know 1973, we came on holiday, we came for vacation in 1973. Yeah, in 1973 we came on vacation to the—to Baltimore and um my um uncle and aunt on my father’s side were here. And we also visited Montreal, we went to the Montreal Expo, I remember that. In se—in 1973. This is before we actually came to live. We came up here in ‘76, in 1976 for good. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And was 1973, that was your first time coming to the United States? F. Wilson: Yes, in 1973 on vacation. M. Wilson: Okay. And um, on what date specifically did you move to the US? Do you remember that by any chance? F. Wilson: Um, it was May 22nd, 1976. That’s—yeah, its May 22nd or 23rd. M. Wilson: Mm. F. Wilson: The day before my birthday. It wasn’t on my birthday 1976. M. Wilson: Wonderful. And tell me about that moving process as a young girl. What—how old were you then? F. Wilson: I was eleven, I was going on eleven. M. Wilson: Um and how was that, moving to a completely different country? F. Wilson: Um, I was sad because I would miss my grandmother of course, and my friends, my cousin. But I was also excited to go be with my parents, my mom, and my dad. I remember when we visited in 1973, I cried. I cried. I didn’t want to go back to Trinidad because I missed my mother so much. I didn’t even want to go on the plane, I was bawling and screaming in the airport. I didn’t want to go back because I wanted to be with my parents. Um, but then three— they wanted us to finish school which is um high— (machine noises) elementary school and then um … three years later we came up, and I—that was a, it was a little intimidating. Um, we went to New York, and I remember something about my um, something about the paperwork, I had to tell somebody about the paperwork that we had. M. Wilson: So, you first went to New York before, before— [inaudible] �4 F. Wilson: Yeah, that’s where the plane landed in New York. And then my parents came, drove up to New York to get us... M. Wilson: Okay. F. Wilson: My brother and me. M. Wilson: Um, so walk me through the process of living in Baltimore. From—from Trinidad to Baltimore, so you said you stopped in New York at first, and then you moved after New—you drove down— [inaudible] F. Wilson: Yeah, we—yeah, we rode the plane, landed in New York, and then we had to drive down to Baltimore. We drove down to Baltimore. I was just um—I don’t know, it was May, so it wasn’t, it was—it wasn’t too hot, too cold. I remember just looking out the window and seeing all the big buildings and everything, but I also was kind of sad because I missed my grandmother. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, when you arrived, um how did the culture here compare to the culture in Trinidad? F. Wilson: Oh, I think it was a complete culture shock, um. I moving from a warm place to a cold place. And then the school, oh my gosh. You know people would, you know—I had, of course I had an accent, and um and you know kids was like, “Oh gosh she’s an alien why does she talk like that?” And “blah blah blah.” I was very quiet, I was very shy, but I did well in school. M. Wilson: So, was that a hard transition dealing with the, the children who used to—did they bully you? Was that what it was? F. Wilson: Uh, I don’t think it was bullying, it was just. Um, I ju—was just quiet, you know I just like—I just considered them to be idiots in a way. It’s like, You people are really stupid. M. Wilson: Um-hm. Okay. So, it didn’t really affect you? F. Wilson: No, it didn’t really affect me, because I, in a way, I thought I was—I shouldn’t say this, but in a way, I thought I was like, more—I was in a way better than them. Or smarter than them. I don’t know why... M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: But that’s, that’s how I felt. M. Wilson: Okay. Um. F. Wilson: Even though I came from a small island, I—I wasn’t you know like, Oh my gosh. No, I was like, okay, um yeah. M. Wilson: Um-hm. Okay. So, the transition, you would say education was rather smooth because of that? Or— F. Wilson: Yeah, I think it was. It was. It was, because I—I got good grades, always getting A’s, you know. And some of the things that we did in school I was like, What—what’s the purpose of this? Like learning about um dinosaurs. I’m like, what, are you kidding me? What was the purpose of that? M. Wilson: Um-hm. So aside from um your education, uh, your early education in America, what was the social aspect like? You talked about school. F. Wilson: Uh social aspect, well I usually socialized with the kids on the—that lived on my street. They would come to us on the porch. Um, socialize—yeah, it was—it was fine. M. Wilson: Um-hm, wonderful. And then um was there any way that your immigration affected your family directly when you first moved here, like your fore-family? When your brother came—so like how did that affect your family dynamic, when you first came? �5 F. Wilson: I don’t think it had an effect. I mean we were glad you know to see to be—I, well, I was glad to be with my mom, you know. So, I don’t, I—I don’t know if it—it had an effect or not. M. Wilson: Um-hm, okay. And so, what was it like to travel back to your home country for the first time? F. Wilson: Oh. M. Wilson: If you did. F. Wilson: Yeah, we did, um. I—I think it was like two or three years later, we went back on vacation. Um, it was kind of strange, um. I don’t think I got to saw—see my friends. I saw my cousin cause she was still there, and my grandmother, and then we also went to Tobago. That’s the other part of Trinidad. And I remember going on there um for a little vacation. Um, I—I don’t remember much about that, I just remember me going t—to Tobago. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: And missing my grandmother. But I know when I came up here, I used to um—every time my aunt in Canada would call, she lived in Montreal, I would think she was calling to say oh, oh my grandmother died, cause I don’t know. I was just so afraid that she was gonna die. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: And then—back then we wrote letters to friends. You know, we, I mean we had phones, but you know, we just wrote—we, I remember writing letters to my school friends it was—it was interesting. M. Wilson: Um-hm.And um. What were your professional goals, after coming [to the US]? Cause you came as an eleven-year-old, but um you stayed. Um so you grew older, in high school— F. Wilson: Well, I wanted to be uh, first I wanted to be uh, a pediatrician, and then, uh, a lawyer. I don’t know why, but. M. Wilson: Mm. F. Wilson: Yeah. M. Wilson: And when did you develop that interest? That professional interest. F. Wilson: Um, probably when I um, a couple years after when I came. I began looking at um— oh! One um, one a—one thing that I found strange was, back in Trinidad, we—basically there was no issue of like black and white, or race. M. Wilson: Mm. F. Wilson: You know, everybody—to me everybody got along, whether you were Indian, you were black, you were white, cause you know we had half white neighbors. But over here, oh my gosh, it was the weirdest thing. I was the—I was into Tiger Beat, it was a magazine for teen—for like, you know, uh—talked about um, you know what is it, celebrities. But it was, I didn’t realize, I mean it was a white magazine, but I was into it. I—I had—I didn’t see any problem. And I remember going to the store one day, and the cashier looking at me like, I just felt this weird thing, like she was looking at me like, “Why is she buying this magazine?” I don’t know why I thought that, she just looked at me really strange, she was a white cashier. And then, I was like, Is something wrong? You know, and then um, I don’t know, I think I—there was a commercial on television about um Soul Train, and you know stuff like that, and then, I began— I don’t know how I began buying Right On. Right On is the—is the counterpart to Tiger Beat. And I started buying the Right On magazine because I was like, Wait a minute, why—it—it was such a, in—in terms of race, it—it was so pronounced here. I just felt like, back in Trinidad, there was no differentiation, but here is, everything had to be black or white, black or white. I �6 just remember that, buying that Tiger Beat magazine and this woman looking at me like, “Why is she buying that magazine.” I remember that. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, were there any other instances of race differences that you noticed, um, afterwards being in the United States? Any other glaring memories? F. Wilson: Um. Yeah, um, I think when I was in high school, um, um, I think one of my closest friends was—was white—well she’s actually Jewish. And then I could see like the black girls— black girls would stay with, with each other, and then white, you know, some white girls would stay with each other. But I just, you know, I was like oblivious, like you know, you’re my friend, you’re my friend. And I remember—I remember, um, it was just—it was, I don’t know it was— it was really strange. I remember this one teacher, he was white, and Elizabeth Ozil, she was my friend, she was the Jewish girl, and we were friends, we were talking in class and um, she was pretty smart. And then the teacher, this white guy, he said um, he said something to the effect like um, “Somebody riding somebody’s coattails” or something to that effect. I—I was like, Wait a minute, I know he wasn’t talking to me. Because she was a really smart girl, and we were, well we were friends. And then I remember telling my mother, you know, something that—about the mark—the remark he made, and then during the um—I said you have to talk to him when you go to PTA, you know about the remark. I mean, I think he denied it or something, I—it was, but I— the way he said it was like, you know like, like I—he was trying to say like, um, I shouldn’t be friends with her, or she shouldn’t be friends—or basically she shouldn’t be friends with me, because, I don’t know maybe it was because I was black, I don’t know, but I remember that. I remember that specifically. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: I—I guess you know, he—he wasn’t used to black and white girls being friends, cause it was an all-girls school. M. Wilson: Um-hm F. Wilson: And yes. But she and I were friends, and we would talk in class. I remember this is Biology class, and we were talking, we were sitting at the chairs or whatever. And he said— made some kind of remark, that says—that say you know like—like that—that friendship shouldn’t be, you know—I shouldn’t have done—she shouldn’t be friends with me or something like that. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Yeah, I remember that. M. Wilson: And what high school was this? F. Wilson: Western High School, on Falls Road in Baltimore. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And um did that affect you in any way, um your thoughts or like perspective on the United States or just... [inaudible] F. Wilson: Yeah. M. Wilson: At all? F. Wilson: Um and then I guess it was the—when was it? The nineteen—the late seventies. Late seventies, early eighties. I graduated from Western in ’82, and um. I don’t know, I—I think that was the era of Roots, you know, of the television show, and I became involved in looking at that and you know and wanted to go to an HBCU, and you know. My mother, she knew about Howard University, cause some friends of—of hers their daughter went to I think it was Howard. So, all I knew was Howard, Howard University. And um, I said Okay, well maybe I’ll just go to Howard University. It’s all black. M: WILSON: Um-hm. �7 F. Wilson: You know and probably I’ll feel like you know, comfortable. M. Wilson: Um-hm. Did you feel uncomfortable at high school, and that’s why you— [inaudible] F. Wilson: No, not really, but um that one episode with that teacher just like kinda changed my perspective on things. Um, I was like, Okay, yeah, this is real. Yeah. M. Wilson: So, tell me a little bit about um life at Howard. Or, before that, even your college application process, getting into college, what was that like? F. Wilson: Um, I actually—this is very um, was a very not, a, uh, a not a smart decision, I only applied to one school which was Howard University. And I got in, um. The application was, you know—I didn’t have a problem with the application. I was in the advanced course at—at Western High School, it’s called the A Course, which is the advanced college prep course. And you know, I didn’t have a problem. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Moving to Ho—getting into Howard was um—I think Howard was also known as one of the elite institutions back in the Caribbean, you know. M. Wilson: Mm. F. Wilson: Our prime minister taught at Howard for a while, early, back in the—like in the sixties or seventies. At that time everybody you know wanted to go to Howard, everybody in Trinidad knew about Howard University. It just, produced all these brilliant minds, so, yeah it was—it was fun. But I—I also missed my mother, you know. I wanted to come home every weekend until I started, you know, making friends and you know and... M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: That slowly, slowly went away. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, tell me about Howard. The HBCU life. F. Wilson: Howard made you feel as though, as a black person, you could do anything you wanted. Uh, if you felt insecure before, if you had low self-esteem, it gave you in my—in my opinion, the—the— it gave you—what can I say? What’s the word? [pause] It made you feel like you’re—you were invincible. You know people say, “Oh, it’s a—it’s a bubble,” you know, “this is not the real world.” But it—it to me, I mean, Howard made me more—what is it? I was more—I became more assertive. Um, more—my—my self-esteem rose. Um, yeah, yeah, I loved life at Howard. M. Wilson: Are there any particular memories that you remember, or friends that you... F. Wilson: Yeah. M. Wilson: That you made? F. Wilson: I friends—I still have friend till—till this day that I talk to every now and then. Um, my close friends from Howard, we still—we still communicate. Um, yeah. Um, although I must say the first year, I, you know had the roommate from hell, but other than that— M. Wilson: Do you wanna speak about that a little bit, or? F. Wilson: Oh no, I don’t even wanna bring that up into the air. M. Wilson: (chuckling) So besides, um any additional social aspects, um of Howard that really stick out to you from your time there? F. Wilson: Um, no I just—just—I just loved Howard. I just loved being there, you know, being uh among people who looked like me, who, you know, weren’t going to—oh, I—I, you know, one thing I—I did find out at Howard is that it wasn’t class, it wasn’t class disc—I mean it wasn’t race discrimination, it was a lot of class discrimination, you know. Not—not um overtly, but you know, you can tell, you know. The girls from California and you know, it—versus, you �8 know, the girls from the South, and you know. There were—there were more—there is more class if your dad was a doctor, a dentist, or a lawyer, or you know, and your father was, you know, not one of those things, you know, you were the popular group, and so it’s more of a class distinction at Howard. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So where did you fall on that class distinction? F. Wilson: Um I really didn’t—um I think it’s based on the—if you—if you took it on. I mean it’s like—I—it really didn’t bother me cause, you know, some of those California girls, those were the Valley Girls, but it wasn’t like a major like, Oh my God, I wish my parents were this and that! No, it’s like, Okay, you do what you have to do. M. Wilson: And what did your parents do? F. Wilson: My dad was a welder and my mom was a mental health counselor. M. Wilson: Okay. Um, did that have any effect um on your college professional goals? Afterword? Cause you earlier on, you said you wanted to be a pediatrician. F. Wilson: Yeah, um, I wanted to be a pediatrician—wanting something and actually doing— doing it is—are two different things (laughs). I went in with this grandiose idea of, Oh my God I’m gonna go to med school. Uh that wasn’t the case. I did not like science classes, I hated all of em. And then my senior year, I called my mom crying, “Mom I don’t know what to do! I don’t want to go to medical school.” Um, I was, I—I did horribly my first year, it was just terrible. But then, you know, I got myself together and got on the dean’s list a couple of times, um but, I called her crying, “I don’t wanna go to medical school, I hate it.” She said, “Well okay, well you know, you can—if—why don’t you just transfer to nursing? You know, you could always have a, um, your license, you could always work.” Okay, so I enrolled in the College of Nursing, and had to stay two extra years for my clinical. Clinicals. So yeah, that’s how I became a nurse. M. Wilson: So then what year did you graduate? F. Wilson: I graduated in 1988. M. Wilson: With what degree was this? F. Wilson: Uh, Bachelor of Science in Nursing. M. Wilson: And when did you come into Howard? Just to keep the dates? F. Wilson: I came in in 1982, but I was supposed to graduate in 1986, but I grad—I had to stay two extra years to do my nursing clinicals. M. Wilson: Okay. And did you do any other schooling, um after undergraduate? F. Wilson: Yes, I did. I earned my Master’s degree in Health Education from Howard University. M. Wilson: And how was that process? F. Wilson: Um, that process— M. Wilson: Tell me about it. F. Wilson: That—how was that process? That process—well I worked; I was working as the nurse at the hospital. Um, I said, You know what, I’m gonna, um, have them pay for my Master’s, that I had to pay for my undergraduate degree. So, I did the tuition reimbursement, um, so I was a nurse there, and going to school in the evening, um. Well yeah, it was fine. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And so, you were—you ca—at this time you were living in D.C.? F. Wilson: Yes, I was. I was living um, actually on sixteen str—sixteenth street. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And, is that also where you lived for undergrad? Um, just to backtrack. Were you— F. Wilson: In undergrad I lived in the dorms. I lived in the dorms um on-campus for the first— for the first year, and then off-campus housing second and third year, and then um, yeah on �9 sixteenth street but not the same. The sixteenth street dorms I lived in undergrad for my last couple of years. M. Wilson: Okay, so you moved to D.C. around what date was it? I mean what year, rather? F. Wilson: 1982 when I graduated from Western High School. M. Wilson: Okay, and then how long did you stay in D.C.? Did you continue to live there? F. Wilson: Yeah, I lived there after I graduated. I worked at the hospital for seven years. Then I [pause] I met your father. M. Wilson: Oh, so tell me about that process. How did you meet your spouse? F. Wilson: At the hospital, he was a—he was um an—an intern. Was he an intern? No, he was the chief resident for Family Practice. Family Practice chief resident, and um, he was one of the doctors on the floor. And he would always um—whenever he had the patient, you know, the doctors had to have a somebody; if they were gonna perform a procedure, they needed a—a witness, so you call one of the nurses to be a witness. And I—I wasn’t assigned to the patient, but he was always calling me to wit—have witness, you know, be a witness to the procedures. I was like, Why is he always calling me to do that? You know, and then we started talking, you know. And then, you know, when he was on call, when the doctor—when he was—when he was one of the doctors on call, we were like, “Oh God, Dr. Wilson is on call, okay so that’s good, we’re gonna have a good night, cause he always answers his pages.” And we started talking and then going out, and you know, eventually dated, and then got married, and had you and your sister. M. Wilson: Um-hm. (laughs). So, what was it like to start a family, in the US specifically? F. Wilson: Starting a family in the US. Um, it wasn’t—it wasn’t too bad because my mom was, you know, my mom was—to me she was like my best friend, she was my best friend. So, I knew my mom was gonna be there so, I—I didn’t—I had no problems. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, um, what kind of cultures does your family ascribe to? The family that you started, ascribe to? Is there any specific cultural emphasis? Or— F. Wilson: Yes, um, the—although my husband is—your dad, you know your dad is from Barbados, yeah, you know, um, but I’m from Trinidad, so we tried to have a—a West Indian household, with West Indian—tried to subscribe to the West Indian culture that I grew up with, and that he grew up with also. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And how did you make your West Indian culture present in your children’s lives? F. Wilson: Um, by the foods that, you know, I cooked, the music we listened to, going to the Caribbean events, you know, that—the local Caribbean events. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Um, things of that nature. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Reading, and—and talking to you guys about our—the culture that, you know, that we—that we grew up in. M. Wilson: [inaudible] F. Wilson: Speaking the—speaking with a—with a native accent—not native, but with an accent. M. Wilson: And how important was it to you to teach your family about your culture? F. Wilson: It was very important, um. I wanted them to—since it was part of my culture, I wanted to pass that onto my children. Um, although they were born in America, I still, you know, believed that, you know, they—they were Caribbean-Americans. �10 M. Wilson: And is there something specific, in your parenting tactics that you did to make sure that they stayed in touch with their roots? Your roots. F. Wilson: As—as I stated (laughs)—as per my last sentence, um you know the cooking, the— the cooking, the—the you know, going to the different festivals, the Caribbean festivals, the local festivals. Um, keeping in contact with family members, um, visiting, whenever we could. M. Wilson: How often did you visit home? Your home? F. Wilson: When? M. Wilson: Um, once you had a family. F. Wilson: Once we had a family. M. Wilson: Your family. F. Wilson: Yeah, once I had a family, we basically went to um, to my husband’s country Bar— Barbados, once a year. To your father’s country, once a year, and sometimes twice a year. But we didn’t really go back to Trinidad because my parents were still living here, and we had like distant, not distant, but cousins, but we weren’t that close to the cousins, and I think my grandma, my grandmother, she died—oh Lord, my poor grandmother, she died before we— before I actually got married. So um, you know it was like, there’s no use going back there [to Trinidad], we can just go t—to Barbados, because you know you have your grandmother and your grandfather who are still alive um in Barbados. But your grandmother—my mother and father were still up here, so we didn’t see the need to go back to Trinidad as often. But as we got older, we visited Trinidad more often. M. Wilson: And you mentioned um your grandmother passed away before you—you got married. When did you get married? F. Wilson: I got married um... M. Wilson: If you remember a rough date. [inaudible] F. Wilson: Um in—in 1995. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: August of 1995. M. Wilson: Do you wanna tell me a little bit about that, the wedding? F. Wilson: Well, we had a, um, we had a—what was it? A justice of—of the peace, um, ceremony in August of ’95, and then uh the church ceremony in F—February of 1996 in Barbados. M. Wilson: [long pause] Okay, wonderful. Um. Also, by this time, had you become a citizen? Or, when did you become... F. Wilson: Oh. M. Wilson: A citizen? F. Wilson: When did I become a citizen? Oh my God that’s a good question, I don’t even know. Oh, I was a um, I was a permanent resident for a while, and oh, yeah this is interesting. Permanent resident for a while, but I never really wanted to be a citizen, I just you know—I just had that tie to Trinidad, I—I figured you know I’m a US [Trinidadian] citizen, that’s good enough. I had my green card, that was good enough, you know, I—I didn’t want to give up my citizenship—my Trinidadian citizenship. But um, somehow, I can’t—I can’t remember how— why I changed—why that changed. But I know I held on to that US—to that—to being a green card holder for a long time. I—I just didn’t want be a citizen, an American citizen. I—but I can’t remember why I actually changed it. M. Wilson: Um-hm. �11 F. Wilson: But anyway— oh yeah, I was tryna hold on to that, to being Trinidadian for the longest—for as long as possible. M. Wilson: Mm. F. Wilson: I think I was here for like, close to twenty-something years before I actually became a citizen. Although, I could have done it earlier, I just didn’t want to. M. Wilson: Mm. Did you want to stay close to home? You said that you didn’t quite know why. Were— F. Wilson: Yeah, I—I just didn’t want to—I just didn’t want to be—I didn’t want to be an American. I wanted to be a Trinidadian living in America; I didn’t want to be—I didn’t want to give up my Trinidadian citizenship. M. Wilson: Um-hm. Great. Um, so now I wanted to ask a little bit about your role as a mother. Um, define what it means to be a mother in your terms. F. Wilson: (sighs) Being a mother is having unconditional love for your children. Being uh an example that they can—they can look up to. M. Wilson: And, uh, describe your role as a mother. Who are you are you as a mother, if you were to describe it yourself? Who—what is Franka Wilson as the mom? F. Wilson: As a mom I think I um, I’m str—I’m strict at times, I’m very, very strict about education. And um, education, and also, I have a problem with, okay, with rude children. I— disrespectful children—I just cannot tolerate that. I think—I believe in that, um, that—that old saying that children should be seen and not heard, um. I find that when I came over here, I— ch—I don’t know, people had too many—children had too many rights. You know, like when adults were talking, they were all—I was like, No, you say hello, and you greet the person, and then you go inside, you go somewhere else. I ju—I don’t know. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, you said, you mentioned the quote children should be seen or not—and not heard. Did you implement that—that idea um when you were parenting your own children, and if so, how? F. Wilson: Yes, um, because, as you are aware, um, you know when we had company, you know, you would—you and your sister, would greet the company, say hello, but you weren’t involved in, you know, what was going on, you would go to your room afterwards, you—I didn’t have to tell you, because you already—you know, you knew you—this is adult—are—you know, this was an interaction with adults; you had nothing to do with it. Yeah so, that’s one of the ways I, uh, implemented that practice. M. Wilson: And where do you think that preference for that practice came from? F. Wilson: From my own upbringing in Trinidad. M. Wilson: Hmm. F. Wilson: You know, my—my grandmother, we had guests, you know, we wouldn’t, (chuckles) you know, we would say hello and then we would go back, you know, to our rooms, and like, goodnight or whatever. M. Wilson: Hmm. And then you also said that you had uh a key, uh, emphasis on education as well. Um, how did you implement that when parenting? F. Wilson: Um, by researching, you know, what schools my—my kids were gonna go to; what books they’re gonna read. Um, I also believed in, what we called lessons back in Trinidad, it’s like um, ex—what is it, what do you call it over here? Um, where you—you help—what is it? Augment, what the child is learning. It’s um, so they can be better. Something like Kumon, I—I believe in that, I believe in that. Um, anything, that’ll—that’ll push the child to be better than— than, you know, than average. �12 M. Wilson: And do you feel like you were successful in that endeavor? F. Wilson: Yes, I do. I have two intelligent, beautiful daughters. I’m so proud of you guys. M. Wilson: What makes you specifically proud of us in that educational sector, any achievements that you— F. Wilson: Yes, um, my daughter, Micayla, of course, you know you got the Banneker-Key Scholar program and—and the Honor’s program, and my other daughter Malia is in the—also is, in the—in the Honors Program at University of Maryland. So, I’m very proud of you all, and you—both of you got into some exceptionally, wonderful universities. M. Wilson: Wonderful. Um, and do you feel like you were a key contributor to their success, your children, us? F. Wilson: I, um, I believe, yeah, your father and I, um, yeah. There was no television, as you know, no television during the weekdays, when there was school, during schooltime. Onl—you guys only looked at television, you know, on Friday nights or Saturday, but when it came to the week—weekdays, there was no TV at all. You come home, you have a snack, you do your homework, you know. M. Wilson: Why no TV? F. Wilson: Because there—I thought it was brainless, it—school, that—that TV-watching— watching TV should, I believed, was a treat that you get—you got on the weekends. During the weekday, it was school. After that, you know, Friday, Saturday, you can watch as much TV— although you didn’t. Um, I know you wanted to, but, you know, um that’s—that—Fridays and Saturdays were, you know, when you could watch, a um, limited amount of television, but not during the week. I was not a believer in watching TV during the weekdays. During school nights. And I didn’t believe in—in doing anything on a school night, um, although you guys had extracurricular activities, but like, say to go and visit somebody’s house—no, I just didn’t believe that. School was number one important—was one of the important... [pause] M. Wilson: Important? F. Wilson: Was—was very important, was—your education was very important to your father and uh me. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, if you were to describe a Trinidadian mother, what—what about a woman would make her a Trinidadian mother? Any characteristics? How would you describe a Trinidadian mother? F. Wilson: I would say basically a Trinidadian mother is very loving and kind. She welcomes everyone, you know, with open arms, um. You know, if you have, if you came to her house, the first thing she would say, “Are you hungry? Would you like something to drink?” She would you know try to feed you as much as she could; whatever she had she would give it to you. That’s—I think it’s because my grandmother was like that. Even though, you know, when I lived—we lived with my grandmother, we didn’t really have a lot, but anybody who came to visit, she would give them, you know, she would offer them, whatever we had, and I think that was— that’s where we got it from, but, well my cousin and I. And, well I guess most—most Trinidadians, you know, they—they are very hospitable. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: You know, um, first thing they want to do when they come to the house, they would like to feed you. M. Wilson: Mm-hm. And that’s specifically Trinidadian mothers, or just Trinidadians in general? F. Wilson: I think—I think probably Trinidadian—uh Trinidadians in general. �13 M. Wilson: Um-hm. Any other specific traits of that are specific or unique to a Trinidadian mother that you think um stand out? Not specific to you, but like if you were to think of a Trinidadian mother, what does she [inaudible] like? F. Wilson: I think she... M. Wilson: How does she— F. Wilson: Yeah, she’s um, she’s also very strict at times, um, and also, you know, um, I think they also adopted that phi—philosophy of, you know, children should be seen and not heard. Um, you know, there’s—there’s a time and place for everything. When adults are, you know, engaging in conversation or, you know, or socializing, you know, you say your hello’s and then you—and then you leave. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And I mention—I heard a little—a couple—a little bit of repetition, “seen and not heard,” um, things of that nature. What traits of a Trinidadian mother do you think that you have or you took into your motherhood? F. Wilson: I think I took in everything I said. M. Wilson: Okay. And what do you—what is traits of an American mother, if you could describe one? F. Wilson: (sighs) M. Wilson: To you? F. Wilson: To me? M. Wilson: If you have multiple, you can share those or. What would you attribute to an American mother? F. Wilson: What? M. Wilson: If you have multiple definitions of an American mother, you can share those. F. Wilson: Oh, um. [long pause] An Ameri—I think Ameri—I think, um, this is a may—may not—may or may not be true, but I think American mothers, they believe in freedom of expression for their children, you know that—and they have—their kids have a lot of, um, quote unquote rights. M. Wilson: [inaudible] F. Wilson: I know, um basically um, you know, if—if t—the child, um, doesn’t want to like, you know, say participate in something, um, “okay, well it’s your right,” you know. No, I—it’s not, you know, I would say, I didn’t force you guys, you know, even with piano lesson, you know, you didn’t really like it, but, you know, I thought it was something, you know, useful. And, um, I—I just believe that a lot of American children have, just have too many rights. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Right, I don’t know, maybe—that sounds kind of weird, doesn’t it? M. Wilson: It’s okay, it’s your definition (laughs). It’s your definition. Any other attributes of what a—an American mother looks like, or acts like or thinks like? F. Wilson: I don’t—I think everybody is different, so I don’t know. Um, I’m not—I can’t—I can’t speak on that, you know specifically, but, in general. I guess every mother wants to, you know, be the best mother for their children, and to love their children unconditionally, and every—no matter what culture you are in, but I guess every culture is different so. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And of those traits that you mentioned of an American mother, do you think you have any of those? You mentioned some of the Trinidadian mother that you have, but any of the American mother that you have? F. Wilson: Um, no. M. Wilson: Um-hm. �14 F. Wilson: Damn it. M. Wilson: Um, okay. Um, so I know you mention you don’t really have traits of an American mother, but has American culture or life in America as an immigrant, shaped your idea of motherhood or like, how you... F. Wilson: No. M. Wilson: Mother? F. Wilson: No that—it didn’t. Because is still believe in my um, my—my Caribbean background, the way I was raised, you know, um. Yeah. M. Wilson: Yeah. F. Wilson: I don’t think it shaped me. M. Wilson: And, but the Trinidadian culture, you were saying... F. Wilson: Yeah. M. Wilson: It did? Okay. M. WILSON: And you attribute that to whom or to what specifically do you think of the Trinidadian culture shapes your parenting tactics? F. Wilson: My... M. Wilson: If I mentioned that. F. Wilson: The way, you know, the way I saw my—how my grandmother, you know she dealt with certain situations. My mom—how my mom dealt with certain situations. M. Wilson: And I—okay so, you had essentially two parents. You had your—or two sets of parents, your grandmother and your mother and father. What were the differences in the parenting styles, if you could describe them? Were they different, similar, how was that? Like— F. Wilson: My mom and, and my grandmother basically had the same parenting style. Um, although, my grandmother was a little more um, a little more strict in the fact that she—she didn’t really want—she, you had to be home at a certain time, you know, when you—if you— you’re expected to come home for—if school let out at three o’ clock, you’re expected to be home by a certain time, and if you didn’t come home by that time, you know, you’d get in trouble. But my mom—my mom was a little more, um, a little more lenient. M. Wilson: Okay. F. Wilson: My dad was strict though. M. Wilson: Um-hm. Okay. Um. [pause] Let’s see. Do you feel like you’ve shaped your children’s cultural identity? F. Wilson: Yes. M. Wilson: And how? Could you talk a little bit about that? F. Wilson: Um. By, you know, ah, the way I—the way I raised them, you know. Um, I think I imparted my beliefs on how—on how to raise children. I think that came from my grandmother and my mother. Um— M. Wilson: Okay. And then just to wrap up more about the motherhood, what about—what about your role as a mother do you take pride in? Like what do you take pride in as a mother? F. Wilson: The fact that my kids are respectful, they’re um, kind. They’re—they are very—they have a good heart, you know. I raised my kids to—to be kind to everybody, do not judge, um, you know, just be basically good human beings. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: You know, anybody you see, if somebody needs help, you know, you go ahead and help—offer help. Um, I—my kids, I think they’re very sm—two beautiful, well-rounded girls. M. Wilson: Um-hm. �15 F. Wilson: I—and some of the things that I hear I would—I will say, I—my—I know my children would never ever do that, or never say that to somebody, when I hear of all these horror stories of kids bullying and stuff. I said I know my kids will never do that. They would never do that. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And do you, why do think that is? As a result of your parenting, or is that individual characteristics of your children? F. Wilson: I think it’s all—I think it’s a combination. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, I wanted to talk about, a little bit about your definition of home. Where is home for you? F. Wilson: For me, home is Trinidad. M. Wilson: Trinidad? Okay. Um, or, and is there any—that—was that—would you say that’s where you feel most at home, or is there any place that you feel most at home? F. Wilson: Um. Well—well I feel most at home when I’m home with my children. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, you would define your home as in Trinidad and with your children? F. Wilson: Yeah. M. Wilson: Those two places. And why? What about your children or what about Trinidad—like why is that home for you? Compared to say, Baltimore, compared to say, D.C., compared to the other places you’ve lived, that have housed you, why are those two—two things home? F. Wilson: Because, this might—there are, you know, um Trinidad, I, you know, I was there until my formative years, and I think, you know, uh, growing up in Trini—I—I sometimes I feel like I don’t belong in this country. I—sometimes I just wanna go back home. I want to go back to where I was born, the land of my birth. I—I just have that sense, I don’t know why. I—maybe it’s because of the—I’m thinking maybe it’s because of the climate, or—but then when I go visit, and I’m on a plane, and I just—I was like, Oh my God, it’s just like everything just seems so strange. Like you have to come back here. Although, there’s a lot of opportunity in America, don’t get me wrong, you know, but there’s just something different about, you know, wanting to be where you were raised as a child. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And you were raised as—in Baltimore as well as a child... F. Wilson: Yes, I was. M. Wilson: So why, why— F. Wilson: But like I said, I was born in Trinidad, I spent my formative years in Trinidad, so... M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: That’s—that’s where I would prefer to be. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And would you say—oh, how many times do you visit home, or like how often are you in your home, would you say with your children or in Trinidad, how many times do you spend time in those homes? F. Wilson: Um, well since my mom was sick, it was like two or three times a year, it was just in the past ten years, but before then, um, it was sporadic. We would go for weddings or something of that nature, but, like I said, we’d also go to Barbados, which is in the Caribbean, um. But now, um, at least once a year. M. Wilson: Um-hm, at least once a year. And you mentioned before your mom gets sick. Did you wanna speak a little bit about that? Um, what was she sick with? F. Wilson: My mom had—was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, she had it for ten years. So, we were back and forth, um. I—I know I didn’t want to put her in a nursing home, there was—there was not—never gonna be an issue of that. I wanted somebody to take care of her, a family member to take care of her. Um, and because up here, it’s—everything is so expensive, nursing homes, um �16 and you don’t have that, that sense of—to me, you don’t have that sense of community, where, back home, you would have, even if it’s a neighbor, you know, you would say, “Okay,” you know, “You can just come in and watch so and so.” Or, people were in and out of each other’s homes, and—up here, everybody’s so closed off, you don—you know, you don’t even know some of the people on the stre—that live on your street. Um, but I wanted somebody who was a family um member. So, we took her back, you know, back to Trinidad so my cousin took care of her. Um, yeah so, but I’m glad she—glad she’s—she is in Trinidad, buried in Trinidad. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Um. Yeah. M. Wilson: And when did she pass? F. Wilson: In nineteen—nineteen, sorry in twenty-eighteen. M. Wilson: Um. Okay. Okay, um. And do you think, wa—that was the best place for her to be— [inaudible] F. Wilson: Yea I think it was the best place for her, cause my family was there, you know. M. Wilson: Okay. F. Wilson: Um, I didn’t want a stranger taking care of her, uh, I didn’t—I didn’t want—she was definitely not going to go into a nursing home. M. Wilson: Um-hm okay. Um and in your home—um you mentioned being with your kids as one home and being in Trinidad as another home—do you belong to a particular community, or tribe, or ethnic group, or social group? Are there any groups that you belong to? F. Wilson: Um, y—not particularly, I mean, I um, I volunteer. I do a lot of—I used to do a lot of volunteering when, when you were all in school. Um, I belong to the Catholic Church, volunteering there every now and then, but not—not to say a particular, uh group. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And do you continue volunteering or is that just solely when you were raising your children... F. Wilson: Well, well I... M. Wilson: When they were younger? F. Wilson: I continue to volunteer now as well. You know with the Red Cross and the Alzheimer’s Association. M. Wilson: Um-hm. Tell me a little bit about your jobs there, or your work there. F. Wilson: Um... M. Wilson: For each. F. Wilson: Basically outreach, we do outreach for the Alzheimer’s Association to get word out about, you know, find—help finding a cure. Do a lot of fundraising, and I just started the Red Cross, um volunteering with the Red Cross um in September of this year—of last year. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Um, basically the same. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, I know you went to nursing school, but now you’re volunteering. What was the job process up until now. F. Wilson: Um... M. Wilson: After graduating? F. Wilson: After I graduated from nursing school, I worked for seven years, and I, um—then I said I met your d—no, what is it? We got married in 1995. Yeah, I was a nurse for seven years at Howard University Hospital. Um, got my Master’s, got married, and then I decided I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. M. Wilson: Um-hm. �17 F. Wilson: I wanted to stay home and raise my children. I didn’t want to go to work, and have them in daycare, I—I didn’t want to do any of that. So, luckily, thank the Lord, you know, I was able to do that. Um, so I stayed home for 10 years, and then I was also volunteering with a Girl Scout—Girl Scout Troop Leader, you know, I worked at the—I volunteered at the, um, Attorney General’s office. They had a Health Advocacy unit. With my nursing background I—I did that as well. Also, volun—volunteered at the Immigration Outreach Service Center. Did a lot of volunteering while um I was um also raising the kids, raising you kid—raising you girls. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Um, and then, af—after um ten years, I decided I, you know, I wanted to go back to work. So, I went back on a part-time basis. So, I was at the Maryland Department of Health. There for ten years. And then they relocated to Annapolis, and then I’m currently doing perdiem, which is as-needed nursing. But right now, I’m on a break, so. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, you—you’ve been in a lot of positions, um, Girl Scout council—uh leader, IOSC, um, working in the Department of Health, and now per-diem nurse. Is there any favorite that you have, or any memories you want to talk about from any of those positions that you really stick out? F. Wilson: I loved—I enjoyed, really enjoyed working at the, um, Attorney General’s office. Um, I’m sorry, volunteering at the Attorney General’s office. I really enjoyed that. Um, I was also thinking—while I was doing that, I was thinking about going to law school. Um, but then that changed. (laughter) I took a class, I—I applied, and then I—there was this um, what was it, I forgot. The summer program, I got it, I—I was accepted into before you go to law school. But I—I got an A in one class, and then didn’t do well in the other class. I was like, Okay, this is really—maybe this is not for me. M. Wilson: Um-hm, okay. F. Wilson: Um, but I really enjoyed my work at the Attorney General’s office, um. Yeah. M. Wilson: Um, what does—do you thinking your work there influenced your, um, thoughts of becoming a lawyer? F. Wilson: No, no... M. Wilson: Oh. F Wilson: I wanted to become a lawyer before that. M. Wilson: Okay. F. Wilson: Yeah. M. Wilson: When did those professional thoughts like get—come into mind? After nursing, or was that still in undergrad? F. Wilson: That, that wasn’t in undergrad—well, I don’t know, I was—maybe I didn’t really have a um (laughter) a what is it? A guidance counselor to guide me, because I was like all over the place. I wanted to be a pediatrician... M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: And then I wanted to be a lawyer... M. Wilson: Yes. F. Wilson: And so, I was like, okay. I—I actually, after I graduated, and after I was working as a nurse, some other nurses—uh nurse friends, we were like, We should go to law school, we should all go to law school. I was like, okay. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: I think that’s where it stemmed from. M. Wilson: Okay. And in nursing school, or after nursing school? �18 F. Wilson: Yeah. M. Wilson: Um, and what was it like, being a Girl Scout leader? Tell me about that because that was— F. Wilson: Yeah, that’s interesting, because I—I consider myself to be shy. I don’t really like speaking in front of crowds or groups. So, becoming a Girl Scout leader was uh out of my comfort zone. M. Wilson: Hmm. F. Wilson: But it was very interesting because I got to be the leader for your troop and your sister’s troop, um it was—I enjoyed it. You know, I became friends with the other moms, which was very—I really enjoyed it. M. Wilson: Um-hm. Wonderful. And then IOSC? [inaudible] F. Wilson: The Immigration Outreach Service Center. I became involved in that, that was affiliated with the church, because I was also thinking about going to law school, so I was, you know—I thought maybe that would help as well. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Um but also, you know, helping the, um, asylum-seekers, you know, with their paperwork was also—was also very interesting. I enjoyed that as well. M. Wilson: So, you mentioned that IOSC was affiliated with the church. What church is this? F. Wilson: St. Matthew’s Catholic Church. M. Wilson: Okay, and do you attend this church? Are you... F. Wilson: Yes, I am a member. M. Wilson: Do you belong to this church? F. Wilson: Yes, I’m a member of the church. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And what kind of religion is this? Or— F. Wilson: Catholic. Catholicism. M. Wilson: Were you always Catholic? And were you raised as a Catholic? F. Wilson: Yes, I was. M. Wilson: Okay. And were your guardians Catholic... F. Wilson: Yes. M. Wilson: As well? F. Wilson: They were. M. Wilson: Okay. And then um, you began working in the Maryland Department of Health, am I correct? F. Wilson: Yes. M. Wilson: Okay. Um, what was that like? For ten years... [inaudible] F. Wilson: Yeah, that was um... M. Wilson: When you came back. F. Wilson: My first job after, you know, after ten years of being a stay-at-home mom. M. Wilson: And when did that start? What date? F. Wilson: That started in nineteen—um, no, in twenty—in 2008. M. Wilson: Okay. F. Wilson: In 2008. That was interesting. Um, I—I enjoyed that as well. Um, I was a—a nurse auditor with the Sexual Assault Reimbursement unit. Basically, um there were three nurses for the entire state of Maryland. We handled all the sexual assault cases for the entire state. M. Wilson: Um-hm. �19 F. Wilson: So, um, reading, um, you know—and sometimes, you know, you’d be overwhelmed with the cases, and you know, and especially when it involved children, but... M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: You know, you—you got used to it. M. Wilson: Um-hm. That’s a pretty intense topic to deal with, um. What made you want to work as a nurse auditor for these specific cases? F. Wilson: Well, um, I—the—the hours were—were what were really appealing. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: The fact that it was part-time, three-days a week, um. You know, I didn’t want to do clinical nursing, I didn’t want to work in a hospital anymore. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Um, so this was a non-clinical position, so... M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: I said you know, let me see what this—what this is about. M. Wilson: Alright. And is there any particular reason why you didn’t want to work in clinical? You said you didn’t want to. F. Wilson: I—I, you know, I worked in—as a nurse in the hospital for over seven years. And I just had enough, you know sometimes—you know there are all types of nursing. You can work in the hospital, doctor’s office, law office. And I—I just, you know, realized, clinical nursing was not for me. It’s just—you have a lot of burnout, and I—I did it, now it was time to do something—try another aspect of nursing. M. Wilson: Um-hm. Did you—so you felt burnout? [inaudible] F. Wilson: Yeah, I did, I did. You know, and there were days where you wouldn’t—couldn’t even eat lunch, you were so tired. You couldn’t even walk to your car. Working in a hospital as a nurse is very stressful. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: So yeah. M. Wilson: Any specific things that stick out to you or that told you, Oh this is very stressful, I don’t want to do this anymore? F. Wilson: Yeah um, like I said, you know, you were so tired. You’d do twelve-hour shifts. You were so tired you couldn’t even walk to your car. Um, it was just a lot. Um, and when I was working at the hospital, I did three years of med-surg, a year of, um—what is it? Um, transplant. And then I did three years on the oncology unit, and yeah, I think the oncology unit was the worst one. Cause you would see patients that, you know, were your age in the bed, you know, cancer, and so it’s like, That could be me. You know, it would get to you sometimes. That could be me in that bed. There were no history, of—of cancer in the—no history of cancer in the family, and, you know, young girl getting her Master’s, and all of the sudden, it’s like, oh my gosh. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: Yeah so, that was—that would be emotionally draining at times. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, you said that was quite draining and you knew you didn’t want to do clinicals anymore. Of the multiple jobs or positions that you’ve held, which one was your favorite? F. Wilson: Um, work paying? Nonpaying or non— M. Wilson: Or whichever position... F. Wilson: Um... �20 M. Wilson: Paying or nonpaying, you can do either. F. Wilson: I would say the um, working at the Attorney General’s office, I enjoyed that. M. Wilson: Um-hm. And why? Any specific reason why? F. Wilson: Um, the fact that you get to negotiate on behalf of the—of the consumer, and you know, you interact with the attorneys on the phone, with the doctor’s office, and try to negotiate on their behalf. I enjoyed that type of work. M. Wilson: Um-hm. So, it seems like, besides the Girl Scout leader and the IOSC that everything had a health relation. Would you still say that health is still, um, a passion of yours or something that you’re interested in? Cause it—it was a common theme in your positions. F. Wilson: Yes, it is. M. Wilson: Wonderful. And do you plan to continue your time with Alzheimer’s Association and... F. Wilson: Um. M. Wilson: Red Cross, or any other new interests that you have? F. Wilson: Uh, yeah, well, the Red Cross, I’m—I’ve just joined the Red Cross so um, I’m looking forward to seeing what are the opportunities, you know, what they have to offer. Um, the Alzheimer’s—yeah, I plan on—on helping them with their um walks and fundraising every now and then. Not as involved as I was before. M. Wilson: Alright. And so, I’ve asked you a lot about your home, um, your culture. Is there any time when you haven’t felt at home? I know you gave me some— [inaudible] F. Wilson: When I haven’t felt at home where? M. Wilson: Um, in America. Cause I’ve asked you about your home, you said Trinidad was your home. Was there any place or— [inaudible] F. Wilson: I think why—I don’t feel at home when it—when it’s fall and winter, cause I do not like the cold. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: I just do not like it. M. Wilson: Um-hm. F. Wilson: So, um, during the summer I can tolerate it, but the fall and winter, it—it becomes a little drag, and dreary, and depressing. I just feel like, I just want to go back to Trinidad. M. Wilson: Go back to Trinidad okay. Um. Okay. Uh so, the main culture that you identify with, what would you say it was? If you were to—cause you’ve lived so many places— F. Wilson: Trinidad. M. Wilson: Trinidad. And how are you continuing to stay connected with this culture, if you stay connected with this culture? F. Wilson: Um, by, you know, visiting. Um, you know, continuing to prepare the same types of food I prepare, listen to the type of music, um, any activities or—or any um social activities that involves you know the Caribbean culture, you know, I’m—I’m usually a part of it, um. Yeah. M. Wilson: What kind of foods do you cook, or activities? You mentioned food, activities— F. Wilson: Food, um. You know the, um, curry chicken, um, plantains, dumplings with soup, um. M. Wilson: Okay. And then activities, you said you— [inaudible] F. Wilson: Activities, um the carnivals, are usually—um, we attend, you know, the most—the carnivals. Um, which is customary. Um, any—anything dealing with the Caribbean culture, um, I usually try to—to do it as much as I can. Um, if there are books by Caribbean authors, I usually go to their book signings or things of that nature. �21 M. Wilson: Um-hm. Wonderful. Well, is there anything else that you’d like to tell me or discuss before we finish? Any other aspects about you, your culture, motherhood, education? F. Wilson: I—I just want to say that, um, don’t get me wrong, I enjoy living in America, it has a, you know—I really do. But um, but Trinidad will always be my home. M. Wilson: Okay. Well, thank you very much for this interview. Um, I had a wonderful time. I hope you enjoyed it too. F. Wilson: Thank you my dear daughter. M. Wilson: Wonderful. Addendum: M. Wilson: This is Micayla Wilson, interviewing Franka Wilson, um on the sixth of March 2020 in Catonsville, Maryland. This is an addendum to the previous interview. F. Wilson: I remember you asked me about um, my trip from Trinidad to America, when we finally, um, came here for good. I remember my brother and I, we, um—it was Pan-Am, Pan-Am Airlines, Pan-American Airlines. And we were—we were—since we were two children—my brother was nine, I was eleven—they had us in first-class. Um, and we kept looking back at the other people, and we were like, “Why can’t we be back with them?” Cause there was only like about two or three people in the first class. We were so upset, we were like we wanted to be back in the back with the other people, you know, making noise and laughing and we were like—but then we realized that, although it was first-class— but, and you know as a child, you didn’t want to be up there by yourself, you know. But, yeah. I guess it was—it was all good. M. Wilson: Wonderful, thank you. Anything else that you’d like to add before wrapping up the interview? F. Wilson: No, um. I just wanted to say I’m so proud of you and continue the good work. M. Wilson: Thank you. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2020 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Micayla Wilson Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Franka Wilson Location The location of the interview Catonsville, Baltimore County, Maryland, USA Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data PDF, MP3, JPG Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Franka Wilson Description An account of the resource This interview between Micayla Wilson and Franka Wilson discusses Franka’s journey from San Fernando, Trinidad to Baltimore, Maryland as a child, and her subsequent settlement in the DMV area. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2020). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Micayla Wilson Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 6, 2020 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, JPG, MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Caribbean childhood class culture education employment family motherhood race Trinidad and Tobago https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/a309dc39a3fbaea5c63aacb7f97db1f3.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=ZQHkhzlxxk%7EEeQI2mXP8uLklq4yawuH9nw0glBcfdeqLaU9Ox1HA8zIH47SCYw5XSEMr8Z0lzQ3fboIVJjA5P%7EW8HqSp8257Ihym7r0CSqLKA7zhc5AMSwhvkwfEjVTuIiEWMDf3vRUC5P5mQyQMVlfcy8y6U5%7EVHOaj%7Em8zJdo2s2uHV6vSLY4tMa97Md13q-2gq5%7EgDmfT4vH0QDy6VqInwXF8sUjQ1IBdgYNAK7Jz1bXh6R0xya9lOGy%7EyM4i6r2R17FsmO9WBf3IBQaW%7EWKkjnhCcIKYZ-kVH4eXh75voteXW3SVFOW5ZjJhM3WtTs%7Eo6ROAm5k58CXY0V2r3g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 0851b7e908d10385d03e23e683f25175 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/9cf88ecbc6a2690a4dcd6ab33a6d40b0.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=M8zcKvKeyoQpvJDvqICH9TNEnQcZrq79%7Em88iOiuDbDqKBKrsoDHNci%7EO6Z2ONE8OYdM8c7WMjBOlfSBIPHZZs027NOaB9nasHR7N9NuTYJLk%7Ep6NhJ9qJ5ksF82Nu%7ErEMutenKxOmPEUdWoGA4aThz8ceiwhzLFIGlOU-Nx6Mbpddn3U7176l7ApyyDSEsviGiKTofQu3S6PhNbTfjR9PvjV-Y1BNXrjhBf0J3btD7XeAbWyli6%7E0RRPPGk%7EW0xLj0rrzBbSY9VBxMeH7StkasuGxkE5Bsw18dji2M39NIegq8rbWiNfdASApWP-9WA%7E9z7bIVmbxFLoym-PmSBRg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 1741cab77432833b621a43dada4e3450 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2019 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Austin Kleber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed "Monica Geller" Location The location of the interview Silver Spring, Maryland, USA Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data PDF Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of "Monica Geller" Description An account of the resource This interview between Austin Kleber and "Monica Geller" (pseudonym) explores Monica's experience as an immigrant in the United States. She speaks about the cultural differences she had to navigate as well as the isolation and sadness that accompanied her move into a new country and new community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Austin Kleber Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 27, 2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2019 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dercem Kaya Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nico Alvarez Location The location of the interview College Park, Prince George's County, Maryland, United States Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data PDF, MP3, JPG Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Nico Alvarez Description An account of the resource This interview between Nico Alvarez and Dercem (Derc) Kaya explores Nico's experiences migrating as a child from Spain the United States. Nico discusses his experiences in school, his observations on cultural differences between Spain and the U.S., his parents' careers (which brought them to the U.S.), and the decision and ability to stay in the U.S. once his family moved back to Spain. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2019). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dercem Kaya Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 7, 2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, JPG, MP3 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History accent assimilation childhood migration cultural differences cultural retention culture Culture Shock education employment engineering Europe food grandparents Green Card higher education language parents race return migration siblings Spain US politics visa