1 10 64 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/6828124cc6c782166bca03c82964144d.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=mx51g8xBVtnoO3PVXU%7EriVmt%7Epf-G64jjnY3S4UOc0sWTC5s%7E2OXisrqCLstL9D1t1k4Jql9lE5DGjGJhlf1K35iwrxSg6w%7EMMGOJeCzB379dCJ99DXlkWa0JqmFwggOSRc2uJI-8q2dbVGzssHtlMLrjrCJsoEmFsen98kA2T22VID3YDmUdOpwxo%7EnuFOaf3C0125LPr7DwarUOeeg11NSb-LxTZVDVH0ft6MLxsaJOPTJ0dEto34kfP5LM6VhTHIi9ElzxP68oiooXM2wWXfry56pgaFdKOKovY9sNHP2sCpIfCN93lpJYBMJuBKRa9QrKQIoXIOEjA0QP8Dclw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dora-Marie Groelsema Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marie-Cécile Groelsema Location The location of the interview New Carrollton, Prince George’s County, Maryland, U.S.A. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marie-Cécile Groelsema Description An account of the resource This interview between Dora-Marie Groelsema and Marie-Cécile Groelsema explores Marie-Cécile’s experiences as an immigrant to the United States from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Seeking to advance her education, she moved to the US in 1987 to Pittsburgh to study English at University of Pittsburg. Then she moved to Indiana and studied comparative literature with a minor in film studies and African studies at Indiana University. Marie-Cécile’s interview explores her education experience in the US and in other countries, her family memories, and her refusal to identify as an immigrant. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST465 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dora-Marie Groelsema Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 11, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4, PDF Democratic Republic of the Congo education family identity literature university https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/192993bf15390b749e154bccae69aa5e.JPG?Expires=1779926400&Signature=KRnuddlzaz6Pjm5srDxdVYAqEY5YaUMov-Rb8yGc0WZKbmrNKzzoFFU5qpoHH5zDJyCyEQMNSmJWfdAYBLvCHz0lIDH5W%7EqS2NhoALGR2JHKyn3OCiQtGxnRXuG9FGP0Zd%7EPF8eZeg36K0Y%7EN5uzgtlG6DEZ%7Ew0AqlCR80FKNputKqrPAmDA8QbSkPre7FjTM7JDzfbdaqHrc%7ElUWlDIkbmXgAhPWs3hcPlgvOqxQ9LzyCgBNMb9ggpjEgdILXjMyttScB5xLy3M57V5ps7P7kHrVqvLv%7Eoc495yE%7E1UWfflIaYFPmPtIlsLwJMcVjAiqxJPI-cmdmHcXlOb8R%7Eb1w__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM fcb3b404768fe58ba521650f0fbaf29b https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/ee65458e7384d3d4f0249c8c49e2b1b8.JPG?Expires=1779926400&Signature=U5NrjmfVMPqjdsOc63K3HryQoxqFGubxCxF%7ECLM775efoiYbbUVR0BqybmzTG0oiNQcqtwyLZCTKx6DRMmpZHpPhwLmyend23q%7EBzqRpSxawmQbWKf0Wq7vLd3aAPMnxFBAomERjY3OOYtzXSGnCH4nSbULPJBZh1kjuIKQmoIGgJaSSa%7EJosPlGmKSGJcLVErMn1WguBlF85clYhno5Zb01AwcYrxR9khbRzvSw89ScykjY-DsNVpDVnOhLT9Apvh1zGbgAAdhfBegirALZZ6kEAWS4Tep331FBYJuR8b3BAf8vGblJeZL4UVKMBHGK6mapQBtrt7JaoCxSy8zG6g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM aff67ebdc540a35f61cb6a4556bf0f15 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/fb63f4edf2bf93d816d590d22b4036f7.m4a?Expires=1779926400&Signature=AanxQayMTmFCVcdasJqDbTcQig7IKCtQOsi5mZM6hBq2h1z3C4A%7EMUMUbE5pIfUJ-f9Vvi8eG7%7EG%7EYqcGEMTTRjU6ne8aSHAxVLC%7EHxlWJ-e73j2nfCkMIssNNlfFizVy4S3fgV9vY-gLACf4CDc5qgc4nA1kRJfjEl4ev83g-JYqBm6IobT6d5cCYUiOBteKqCGUXziEcplxSv3s0dGTjCl7wIFdkiiGspqJqrjNLmYm0H26lEfghziqVQv0iy%7ETTj0NmKg7nZxZWLtWKjXdoWuFHdZCiPg9jACv6PTjRwOkqhbFpSsoq0cI3HdIZFLToio-hs6MhHb3-OvcLAEcQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM b4cb15b220d96947ec911ccecf354791 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/84c07a347ccb269926536172d3526aa4.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=L6TO6-v57y-c8Hot-O0cV2diOCn2ebyNHfFv8J2MypP%7EY1K-1RbPeaXyO538-EawqKLhQ0cWKRrqtK298uE%7EO3E-KB71gjfcuy72GgjKzNAWvf5zErM4Nl-VjgvgBPWx88%7EGr4kd1831KOy4cZSXNIC1yJk965QiF%7EWsRYMbnc5Q7IveIdKx2aQMMcVj0zFUmQ2AAGc8SKQmWkXVBiF1hTa9AKPBvTVu3fHJO623Gc9kSQFImpXV2Hg4al3wGXbk2XpxCES1pujU2QGmEimyNCZrnZDG3DsYqmwqFpK%7EcVVXbR1qCj0QAOFlOZlgFc-91hxW2RfyA4786JGIcLOTsg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 050de00eaf2b76b7d41d15d54cc9a527 PDF Text Text ��������������������������������������������������������� https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/ce52a92ddcc87645681480c1c55c98f9.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=hPj5SbEq5npei41EE2hHXL6Lx%7ExCDODPIMS2xEHSdecRYfhkn7XmK235mDbYOgz0z%7EUswOl6fmD4M2UzXeMJOrq1Q8lkiHoYvAEIyPjbLMHVB-WIj2yenVvp1CgI4Kk2MRGrwI8hzp7GUZc8mbBvSNSHVkYYo3cZT8FRLRISbc4zaU76Hu99Cdq49ICVg7h3%7EnSiW6BDy%7EpPP9h1a0co49flOhwYw9-Vjc1mcrYmbA9YJl37conjxuM-TryLiRI9eMYYeePr1k3XdxB9EnTE8E3ZV381AzW-QLRstwmEXuRWg2r8FYWHyQtQg-ySkNuVQBth4wd8lvmDDa6BNyI2HA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 3944e9592ac4d94f3f29b7f2d131eb10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Daniela Lopez Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lizzett Contreras Location The location of the interview Urbana, Frederick County, Maryland, U.S.A. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lizzett Contreras Description An account of the resource This interview between Daniela Lopez and Lizzett Contreras explores Lizzett’s experiences growing up in El Salvador, her family dynamics, and the reasons behind their immigration to the United States. Contreras provides vivid insights into her childhood, education, and the challenges her family faced due to the political unrest in their home country. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 465 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniela Lopez Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 9, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp4, PDF, jpeg Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History civil war cultural transition education El Salvador family Green Card guerilla https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/57b6078d28e38f05fc4b4a8a26e3af87.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=HpwRCFylMGrMmHold-siQu-DNhtMikiR8IOjSd%7E%7EDKxlBmJGj9d030RzsFrluck2a3%7EMBixK1JADCrnzALszLQxBFfgc5i39kn7-atOaV%7EyVWSOTPsfApMnFTGGcj20SQqlCwgk5FUsbKtMEZGDqMgqIeFWEUAAMFh8pEcnh1anmQjp9WGPv%7ET1x99u7f-ZSERB1v%7EwfaTK9yt9fwa%7E2VUO1EOfjh0fV%7Ev1uXkgqy%7EvEcNLpu66BeV5H6fnMGLU7geQQyUgtTpOSNDhXDA14ZglyYNqVzQt5-R3m4Vg%7EUp9alqOaxKJM4AjZsj%7EwFq7AohX-5LhNyPyZUbQMg8mm%7Ew__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jannatul Mia Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nayon Mia Location The location of the interview Frederick County, Maryland, U.S.A. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nayon Mia Description An account of the resource The interview between Jannatul Mia and Nayon Mia delves into Nayon's experiences as an immigrant from Bangladesh to America. In 1993, Nayon, a Bengali, sought a better life in the United States. He recounts his upbringing in Satbiriya, Kumilla, Bangladesh, where he endured the hardships of war, pursued his education, and worked as a diesel mechanic for over 12 years. The interview details his journey to obtaining a visa and better income opportunities upon arriving in America. Nayon's narrative highlights the significant role of family and the cultural responsibility placed on him as the eldest son to provide for his parents and siblings, as well as his own wife and children. Throughout the interview, he emphasizes the importance of family and the need to secure financial stability, which influenced many of his critical life decisions. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST465 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jannatul Mia Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 2, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio America Bangladesh difficult family money work https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/f006ac2d9990bc30f4586c671ba56eb4.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=vFxh6%7EzajkAUR06-PEMCnFW-O0YV4KmOC8YVw%7E9dzSCRPKkwNXZOgmSKIKORiqre3E6pLqRbPhzBj4xz2lrmFtRtw58xAthpIPJ4faehloHo6ru23AcfWDue76nOMq16Pyns1P1XxASpz7TQ%7EUqFkOYS%7E8Zl0r55c9akbqJKGzKzfPD9Eb%7EDy%7EgasQTpfpAMnSbCvjtrzW6L8JdMYBuO7LwYxzeL3-dxb1e8wrgHzzfBqKM8xqJ%7EOt4JdbPSRu8p302SWuGcqBFBrxLL0A3M66NEG4l3HVQHRGpCDNFTbCm%7EkStULPaTIyDGEpASgzBkHaMn98sEtrJ3FB4XGUmUjg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bala Govindaraju Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vasanthi Kandsamy Location The location of the interview <span xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us" class="TextRun SCXW171178747 BCX0"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW171178747 BCX0">Clarksville</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW171178747 BCX0">, Montgomery Country, Maryland, United States</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW171178747 BCX0"> </span> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vasanthi Kandsamy Description An account of the resource This interview between Bala Govindaraju and Vasanthi Kandsamy discusses Vasanthi’s experience growing up in India and migration to the United States. Vasanthi recounts her experience in the Indian educational system, family relationships, and labor migration. She also considers her racial-ethnic identification in India and the US. Vasanthi reflects on the difficulties communicating with family back home and family reunification. Throughout the discussion, Vasanthi shares how much had changed since her migration -- from the city side to increasing educated migrants moving to foreign countries for better opportunities. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR400 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Colleen Woods of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bala Govindaraju Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 7, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Dharmapuri education family India maryland visa work https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/8cca7d31e217957d9ddde97018b966dc.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=BroWROOHiI7QYZUPBDwRzzQPoLVlp0QR%7EiOkbrDzUIGpH9R-QZ0J-F2GOVlHv2fDiNLI3Ljp1zb0LgLWl37SeeRgSr83MYZ%7Eqi3SGPst4knmA6nn6W%7ElxlI23R%7EhaD4TIAine1DYk-6j0iH1EZX%7E%7EsPg-rw3q67sZgAhUw0e%7EYIjLzz7SSojIXh9MkutKXaFD6CXmAh6r3j6XqTvVLqU0tZxP735qaO4PX%7E2wWTSGoBIqZ5NjTqyi9a0a0Lcn2APQQRlLXd73FXrncYRoZARCX0I6r5dHT4TRVlJf8ipO6imGuoaTrzE89PsnQ0zR-aoB9Fx9AbR8CVgVlIVuW%7E5eQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/2752c0eac564ebd3d5bcea2666dee46e.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=SuUnjJB-DTMPr8kW-RRyx4722fD2uo%7EWvQqOP9Rexe3Wr97BEAce867L2IgzKgsk9Up6RiuK6FwwMrvWivun5fsyaZ9nB81YkUMuNxIpw01P88mMThCf9aBTVvSxIN3htfQWsqvyLwx85XcofE4Z9yU3P9rRQYmIJiHmcP0BkIzKvfuXDu8Wvq6I8mGFoZeFyI18JggFrucPtbxn66pYfcNuFMtZ4z1ypp4IQJd2BRXjLSXogP308o3p1iU01PlhhoPBM%7EiwIrB4sXtuxL8IXVyICANC9EwsIoQWxscnfDTok2a-jcve0%7EKbcWml4KEumZNNIkzn-4U7z4aO8EFupA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 1aa27daef38d4470f2448dc277fd02fe PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland IMMR400- Spring 2024 Instructor: Dr. Colleen Woods Interviewer’s Name: Claire O’Donnell Interviewee’s Name: Oleg Obolensky Interviewee’s County of Origin: Russia Interviewee’s Current Residence: Rockville, Montgomery Country, Maryland, United States Date of Interview: April 10, 2024 Place of Interview: In Person, College Park, Prince George’s County, Maryland, United States [via Voice Memo] Introduction: This interview between Claire O’Donnell and Oleg Obolensky discusses Oleg’s journey from Russia to the United States in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to complete postdoc research for one year on a J-1 visa. After he returned back to Russia, Oleg then traveled back to Pittsburgh to continue his research with an NSF NATO funded grant opportunity. In Pittsburgh, Oleg had his first son; then, he returned to Russia after one and a half years after his grant expired. After four months in Russia, Oleg moved to Frankfurt, Germany to work at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies. After remaining in Germany for a few years and having his second child, once Oleg’s first son reached school age, his family moved to permanently settle in Rockville, Maryland, where he currently works at the National Institute of Health. By mapping and sharing his immigration journey, Oleg describes assimilation into the United States compared to Germany and living through the collapse of the Soviet Union. Throughout this discussion, Oleg discusses how he received each work opportunity as being based on “luck”, presenting a theme of things happening to him by chance. Oleg’s story offers insights into how after the Fall of the Soviet Union, scientific collaboration between scientists in Russia, the United States, and Germany worked together to bridge research. In turn, these insights reveal how each scientific endeavor influenced Oleg’s immigration story. Keywords: Russia, Pittsburgh, Germany, Rockville, Physics, Science, Research, Opportunity, Soviet Union, Visa, Family �Claire: Thank you so much for agreeing to participate in this interview today. Before I begin, I would like to clarify that this interview will be recorded, transcribed and published in the Maryland Archive of Immigrant Voices. However, you have the option to have your name be omitted from the transcription and if you would like, you can read through the transcription yourself and request that certain information be left out of the published version after the interview. Would you like to be anonymous on the published version of this interview? Oleg: No. Claire: No? Okay, sounds good. Let's begin. So, thank you so much for agreeing to meet with me today and participate in this interview. Can we begin by having you state your name, age and tell me a little bit about yourself and your background? Oleg: My name is Oleg Obolensky, I’m 51 years old, uh (pause) no background? Claire: Like background? Oleg: Alright. I'm a (pause) staff scientist at the National Institute of Health. I'm educated as a theoretical physicist in, uh, St. Petersburg, Russia. And I worked as a theoretical physicist for many years and then at some point I came to the U.S. to be biophysicist. Claire: (pause) Thank you for that. So to begin, I would like to ask you questions about your childhood experiences and young adult life in Russia. So, I understand that you grew up in St. Petersburg. Can you tell me, um, about any stories that you have from your hometown? Oleg: Well, that's too general question. What kinds of stories? – Claire: – anything about growing up in that city, so like, what was it like for you? Anything like that? Anything you fondly remember? Oleg: Well, it was the typical Soviet large city. St. Petersburg is considered like the most, uh, educated, uh, and culture centered city in Russia. Uh, so it is an industrial city but it also has a lot of, uh, research and education, uh, centers and, uh, uh (pause) the citizens are proud to consider themselves, uh, culturally advanced – if you can say so – people. So, uh, so basically, if you don't take, uh, like suburbs where all the industry, uh, was located, you would end up with a lot of research institutions and uh people who were there were interested in, in culture, music theater, general, I don’t know, general knowledge, and that would be considered a cool thing to know about. �Claire: Can you expand a bit more on what like, so you mentioned there being a lot of culture, you mentioned theater and you mentioned art, and then you also mentioned industry being an important quality and it being a Soviet city. Could you expand a bit more on the culture aspect and then, like maybe later, talk about how it differentiates in like a Soviet city? Oleg: Well, Soviet city, I mean, it was typical for the time. Uh, the difference was that people there, uh, tend to pay more attention to culture, so as a kid, I was taken to theater and concerts regularly, even if I didn't want to (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) – Oleg: – uh, I didn't like Opera and [inaudible word] uh – the only thing I was, uh, so I was still not taken, not frequently, I resisted, but, uh, in the intermissions they would serve you like small sandwiches with caviar and uh like delicious sweets. So that was, (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) – Oleg: – I remember but I did like going to theater performances. It was both like for children and also like normal adult place– Claire: –Yeah. How often would you say that you went to these theater and opera performances? Oleg: Uh, I would say at least once a month, maybe more. Claire: That's cool. So, I was wondering if you could spend a bit more on what life was like growing up in the Soviet Union specifically. I know you mentioned a lot about like industry and that aspect of city life. Could you expand a bit more on that? Oleg: Well, industry, it was relatively high tech, uh, industry. So we lived, uh, actually across the street from a large plant called Svetlana and it was developing, uh, like, uh, optics, actually very high quality optics, which would be comparable to like, uh, [inaudible word] in Germany, and so they doing some space communication systems. And so my granddad worked in the Research Institute, uh, and they were also doing something, uh, related to, uh, communication, like regular electronic communication something, which I didn't understand and I suspect half of it was, uh, secret, so I don't know exactly what they were doing, but it was in some that direction. Claire: Interesting. So you mentioned, was that your father or your grandparents? Oleg: That was my maternal granddad. �Claire: Okay, cool. Um, how did your family and people around you discuss things, um, like the Soviet Union and things like that? And particularly, like, the fall of the Soviet Union, as well? Do you remember any like distinct things that shifted or anything? Oleg: Uh, well, I was too young, I just didn't know like, overheard what adults would say. Yeah. So my impression was that, uh, before the Perestroika1, 1985, uh, like late years for Brezhnev2, and then he was replaced by, uh, I forgot the name. There were like two old guys between him and Gorbachev3. One was KGB chief4 on drop off and there was some, also old but more like progressive, guy, but they were both very short lived. Anyway, so before that real fall of the Soviet Union, before Perestroika, my recollections were that people would tend to be, uh, moderately critical of the current, uh, political structure, uh, they could not imagine what else can be in place of the current structure, but they would criticize inefficiencies, uh, like, I don’t know, there were shortages of certain stuff in the stores, uh, there were inefficiencies of how schools are run, roads are bad, and so forth, so, and that the governance structure was that uh you have like, regular administrative uh government structure, like basically Mayor office and you have then some municipal, uh, entities, and they should take care of everyday stuff, garbage collection, what not. And then you had party, Communist Party, which would oversee that. So, in principle, you could go if you are not happy how your garbage is collected, then you would go to this municipal, uh, uh, government and say, I don't know, the garbage people don't do their job properly. So if it doesn't help, then you go to the party. And then the party would somehow apply pressure to make it, uh, better. So people could not imagine that it can be somehow different. And the criticism was mainly, uh, pointed at, you know, it's those small, everyday, uh, annoyances. And then, after Perestroika, it is, it was becoming quite rapidly worse and worse and people would complain that Perestroika led to collapse of a great state where people leave typically had no big problems at least, and now everything is just falling apart. And it was getting worse and worse. And the, uh, the worst time was like beginning of 90s. Claire: Okay. So, you said the beginning of 90s was when people were starting to complain that things were getting worse and worse – 1 During Perestroika, Mikhail Gorbachev attempted to reduce the influence of the Communist party in the Soviet Union by decentralizing power from communist leadership and re-directing these authorities towards local control. Although Gorbachev’s policies failed and deprived him of a political power base due to the Soviet Union’s corrupted economy, Perestroika led to increasing public revelations about the Soviet Party, inciting nationalist and independence movements inside and outside of the U.S.S.R. 2 Lenoid Brezhnev was the General Secretary of the Soviet Union from 1980-1982. Brezhnev’s leadership is remembered for improving the Soviet Union’s national standing while also stabilizing the position of his ruling party. 3 Mikhail Gorbachev was the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1985-91, serving as president of Russia in 1990-91. Under his policies of Perestroika, his efforts led to the fall of communism in Russia. 4 The KGB was the Committee for State Security in the Soviet Union, responsible for foreign intelligence and domestic security agencies. �Oleg: – No, they would start after Perestroika. First of all, some of, some of them were conservative and they didn't like change. They would say what he's doing, uh, uh, he would, uh, destroy the relatively well functioning system, uh, why at all he needs to do that and so forth. Other, so, but most people would welcome that because they wanted, uh, uh, some kind of democracy. So they wanted that, uh, you know, in the newspapers in Soviet times, it was like a cryptic code. So you always had more or less the same, uh, headlines, same contents of the paper and the difference were on, in various small nuances and people will read that and they will try to deduce what's going on based on change of adjectives (pause) if it is like (pause) “brilliant” or “just talented.” (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) Interesting. So you mentioned a lot about how like, like, “they believed” or like “they said.” Um, how old were you during this time period? And like, how did you form this perception of like, what was going on around you? Or was this understanding more like things you picked up later on in life? Oleg: Uh, Well, I was, at the beginning of Perestroika, I was 12. Uh, and, um, my parents would invite relatives and friends from time to time, and they would, uh, sit, you know, at the table, eat and discuss stuff and I would go around and I had nothing else to do. Uh. Some of my uncles would play with me in, uh, table soccer or something like that. Table hockey. Uh, so I was like, in the same room. So we had only two rooms, one was my bedroom and my sister's bedroom, we were in the same room. Uh, and the other room was like a bigger room, it was parents room and living room together. So we didn't have a separate living room. So we've had just two rooms like you what would call it here, one bedroom. Claire: Okay. That's a great point to sort of segway into more like talking about your family. I was wondering if you could talk a bit more about your family. Um, what was your family dynamic like growing up? Oleg: (sigh) (pause) Well it was a normal family. (laughs) I had, uh, my both parents worked. Uh, My dad, well, my dad, uh, by education he was uh an architect (pause). Architect and like civil engineer or something like that. So he would work uh like normal, regular hours, nine to five. When I was very little he worked, uh, in relatively unusual place, he was, I don't know how it's called, he was like, uh, person responsible for all the engineering parts of big, one of the most famous Russian theaters, actually. So he wouldn't do any, you know, uh anything connected to the place, performances, but he will do all this, uh, technical support, like how you get smoke on the scene, and if they need something to fall down, how you do that safely, and so forth. So how everything functions. Uh, but later on he, but, still, I was too young, I don't remember that much. But later on, he would work from nine to five, he went to the, uh, like, it was called Institute – I �don't know you will not call it institute here – It was some organization which did, uh, architectural development for the whole city. So they would design buildings, they had architects, engineers, whatever, and they would do the whole cycle, like all the utilities you need for that building, they will calculate how much you need to work from where to take the water, electricity, they will design the building and so forth. My mom was, uh, school teacher and she worked more or less irregular hours, so she would go to school in the morning, and then she could stay on and off if she had some events there, like teacher parents meetings or she would come home early but then she would check homework. I had an older sister, five and a half years, who I fought a lot, but loved. Uh, so [inaudible phrase], I think we lived pretty happily. My grandparents lived in the same city and, uh, whenever I was sick, my parents would drive me, actually we took a taxi, maybe drove sometimes, I remember both ways actually. They would just send me to my grandparents and I would stay there for a week while I was sick. Maybe half the time, not every time maybe, but sometimes (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) Thank you for sharing that, um, well growing up did you have any close friends around you? What were they like? Oleg: I have a childhood friend whom I befriended, well uh, you know what dacha is? So in the 1960s, maybe late 50s, uh, government decided first that, uh, agricultural, uh, sector of Soviet economy was not doing well enough, not efficient enough. So they wanted first to get some extra source of uh food for the population. Plus, they wanted uh people to have something to do in their spare time, rather than you know, think about democracy (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) – Oleg: – but this is like later reconstruction, but the fact is that in starting from late 50s, maybe early 60s, they will, started giving away parcels of land to whoever wanted them and usually it was done through the organizations where people worked. So my granddad, uh, institute got a parcel of land, and distributed it among the people who were there. So my granddad, uh, got a piece of land and they built a house there, and it was like summer residence. So, especially in the beginning, it was prohibited to build like two stories building, it should be only one story, and they tried to discourage people from staying, uh, like in the winter months, so it was supposed to be only like from spring to the fall, and, uh, later it became looser enforced, uh, but, uh, so we had like a small house and we would come there every summer. And I, uh, I found a friend, uh, when I was, I don't know, five, six years old. So we would meet every summer we would spend there two three months, like from from the early till the night, uh, and at that time, people didn't, uh, try to control the whereabouts of their children as much as they do now, so the only thing I needed was to show up a dinner (laughs) say Mom, I'm still alive (laughs) Give me some food. Sometimes we will do even like eat together, so I will not come home. I will eat at my friend's �house. Uh, so we will just spend two months relatively freely, so that was the best time of my whole year at that time. Claire: That sounds really nice. How did you, like your relationships with family and also friendships, change as you began to like grow up into your young adult years? Oleg: (pause) I don’t know. Claire: You don’t know? Oleg: Nothing changed. Claire: Okay. Um, so, at what age did you first decide to immigrate to the United States? Oleg: Let's see. (pause) 36, I guess. Claire: 36? Oleg: Yes. Claire: Okay, um, so what did you like, what did you do after like you graduated high school and everything like before you decided to move to the United States? Oleg: Well, since, as I told you, we lived in a, uh, part of the city which was like highly educated, It was unthinkable not to go to university. So the only question was, uh, which one? And, uh, at that time, you could not apply to different universities. You should pick one. Submit your documents there, then, uh, you should hold exams, and then you are either admitted or not. So if you're not, then it's kind of catastrophe. Because, uh, first of all, it's unthinkable not to go to school and second, uh, it happens right after school and then, uh, then if you are not at the university, then you are conscript so you automatically go to the army, which nobody wanted. Claire: So to clarify, if you didn't get into university you’d automatically – Oleg: – then you're 18 years old, and uh, (pause) so, uh, the only reason for you not to be drafted, was to be at the university or work for some, uh, like military establishment. So if you didn't get into university then you may want it doesn't matter. Okay. So you are 18 years old. And this is full, and you're drafted. Claire: Okay. So what did you decide to study? �Oleg: Well, I wanted to study physics all my life. Claire: Why physics? Oleg: Because I wanted to know how things work. My, I, think it's influence of my granddad, uh, who would read with me, uh, like science, popular books about mathematics and physics. And they were quite entertaining. And, uh, I like them. Uh, and I don't know, since age five, I remember that I wanted to be a physicist, uh, that's because between our house and my grandparents house there was a bus route, uh, number 38, I still remember, and the, the endpoint uh of this route was Youth institute, which I later realized it was actually only like, off campus location, not main campus, but still on this, uh, tablet where you have this uh route number, one of the endpoints was this Youth Institute. And I remember I was five years old, I was going home from my grandparents, I’d remember this plate and I told my uh, that, I don't remember who was there, and I said, when I grew up, I will work in this Youth Institute and turned out I did (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) So what is that Institute? Like, what do you, what did you do? What did they do? Oleg: It is a part of Russian Academy of Sciences. And it does research. Uh, nowadays, it is mostly solid state and like semiconductor physics. Claire: So why do you think, like, that sign, like spoke to you at age five? Oleg: I don't know. (Pause) Well, I remember I asked what it is they told me, this is a good known, known, well known physical institution. And I said okay, I will work there. Claire: So kind of jumping forward a little bit. I'd like to transition to discuss more about your first immigration to the United States. You said you were 36, um – Oleg: – No. I did not immigrate to the United States. I was a postdoc. Claire: Postdoc? Oleg: Yeah, so I, uh, so I finished, uh high school. I went to, uh, university. Uh, and it's like here when you are in high school years, you already thinking about what university you would choose. Here you have some flexibility, there you are in a much more restricted situation. So you have to think even harder. So finally, we found a school, which had, uh, deep, uh, like deeper physics curriculum and it was connected to electrotechnical university. And (pause) I, I had to change schools, so I had to take a bus to get to the school, it wasn't, so, uh, in Russia, there are �no school buses. So you just, but there are more schools than here. They're smaller, but there are, there are more of them. Claire: Okay. Oleg: So you would just, uh, usually you have to walk to school it's I don't know two blocks three blocks away, at most. But I switched the school and I had to take bus and that school had this physics program and they had their graduates like better prepared and they had connections to that, uh, Institute. And then (pause), when I was in that school, I found out that, uh, at that university where I was going to live. That I actually don't remember clearly, maybe it was I knew about this, but I think it was, maybe I was just lucky. So when, at that school, and when we started going to that university like for after hours classes and some extra curriculum activities, I found out that there is one group, uh, (pause) which is based at this Youth Institute, so which is like attached to that Youth Institute. So it was like, uh, department which was organized by, at the time, not but now he's a Nobel Prize winner, Zhores Alferov who was head of the department there and since he was young scientist, he wanted to raise students to become scientists from like very early stage. So he organized this department at that university, electrotechnical university, and they will try to get the most, uh, uh, like promising students and they would, and who want to be scientists, and they will educate them at that department. So I learned that there is such a department And I, uh, uh, I signed up and I was chosen, uh, for that department and then we would start like uhh dividing our time between the regular university and this Youth Institute. So we would have regular classes like philosophy, history, P.E., whatever at the main university but all our, uh, major related classes were at the youth institute. Claire: Okay. Oleg: So we would spend – I don't know – three day there and two days at the University. Claire: Okay. Oleg: So I started working at the Youth Institute, like trying to do research since I was like a third year student, maybe even before that. Yeah, well, we started going there like from our first year, but first three years, but first I remember, so my friends at the University he had, his uncle, was quite famous physicist who created u, he was experimentalist, he created uh uh um (pause) scientific waves for uh transient industry in soviet union,you know, peinjunctions, LED, you know, led (pause) LED lights, pointed, you know whatever you have in city, players, everywhere, whatever you see in red spot now it can be blue or green. So, this is radiational in your remote control. This is, uh, radiation emitted when electrons go through, uh, the connection of two different materials to uh, different semiconductors so when they go through that, uh, junction they make light. It can be red light, it can be infrared light, your remote, uh, but uh, that �guy he created, uh, this, uh like he was, uh, scientific advisor when, uh, in Soviet Union they started semiconductor industry. So he put us, uh, uh, in a lab from our first year, but the only tasks we were trusted to was doing securital aux. I remember it was our project, it was a two story lab, big lab, and they wanted to open the door, uh, not going down but, uh, so we did the wiring and all the stuff, but since third year we started doing more, uh, science, like real science. And, uh, we were, uh, like, immersed into these activities. So I knew all the scientists in our department and after I graduated from the university, I went to what you would call a Ph. D program. And at that time I worked, uh, uh, I mean like a normal scientist already. And, uh, after you do your Ph. D, you, uh, it's normal to do a postdoc. So since I was working in a group there, uh, and we had collaborators all over the world, uh, my Russian boss knew a guy from Pittsburgh who worked in the similar, like, complementary direction. So he was working in, uh, studying a phenomenon called Bremsstrahlung.5 It's a radiation emitted by, uh, any charged particles when they bend their trajectory. And, uh, in Soviet Union, there was a guy who discovered that this standard radiation can be complemented by another type of radiation which is also branch strong, but the origin of this, not the accelerating particles, but the atoms in, uh, which create the field in which those, uh, particles travel. So that was like complimentary things about the same basically physical phenomenon, but taking them from different ends, like different subjects in the same, uh, picture. So they sent me to Pittsburgh as a postdoc, to like, bridge the gap, to try to build something which would be like unifying concept, uh, unifying formalism describing this, so I was going there for one year and then it was not like, I wanted to immigrate. Claire: Yeah. It was like a temporary – Oleg: – yeah, it was like a postdoc position. Claire: Did you have like uh, a temporary work status to gain permission to live in the United States or like – Oleg: – uh – Claire: – do you remember – Oleg: – the first time we went there, I was on J-1 Visa6, which is a scientific exchange. Uh, in principle, it requires you to return to your home country and spend at least two years there. Claire: Okay. So to clarify, it's like one year in Pittsburgh and then you go back to, for two years. 5 Bremsstrahlung is electromagnetic radiation that occurs when a charged particle decelerates due to deflection by another charged particle. During this process, the moving particle loses kinetic energy, which is converted into radiation. 6 J-1 exchange visitor visa for educational and cultural exchange programs that are designated by the Department of State, Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs. �Oleg: Uh, it's supposed to work that way. It, it, there are loopholes, and I know people who somehow waived this J-1 one requirement, but on the other hand, where I work now there is a guy, uh, Leonardo. He had to return to his home country and spend their two years, even though, like scientific director of our institution wrote to USCIS7 asking this to be waived, but still didn't work. Claire: So, just to continue on with that timeline, so you went to Pittsburgh – Oleg: – so we went to Pittsburgh in 2000. Uh, originally, it was for one year and we started working, and my scientific supervisor was, uh, relatively happy with me. So he actually offered me to, uh, switch my position from this visiting, whatever it is called fellow something. And I said no, we want to go home. We agreed. Uh, but he couldn't find any suitable candidate to replace me. So we had to stay there longer. So instead of one year, we spent, stayed there, year and a half, maybe. Claire: Year and a half. Okay. Were you, um, like, how did you feel about this movement process? Like did you want to go back to Russia or do you want to stay in the United States? Like, how did you feel at the time about, like these moves and everything? Oleg: Uh, well, I was excited to, to work in a different country in different environment in different culture, because I only knew Soviet research culture. And it was very interesting to see how people work, uh, in the United States. Claire: What are some of the differences you noticed? Right away and then also like reflecting on your work now? Oleg: Uh, here people are more polite. So, they would, even if they see that, you are, you are completely wrong. And, uh, whatever you are doing is complete bullshit. They will not tell you that. Uh, they will just keep silent, they will say okay, and uh, yeah, they will not even try it later on to approach you well, some of them who would but, uh, only if they like know you. If it is a complete stranger and he tells me something wrong, I wouldn't argue. I would just keep, I would say to myself, forget about it, it's like, wasting two hours for this seminar. In Russia is much more direct and aggressive, so they would start arguing with the speaker. And sometimes it's even counterproductive. For, I don't know if a speaker devoted one month saying that this assumption and that assumption, uh, hold, and then the person who comes to a seminar listens to that first time, he starts arguing that those assumptions don't hold. And, uh, you know, the person said, you know, I studied this and I know this, (laughs), it's true. Uh, but, so in a sense, it is more, 7 USCIS is the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services. This is a government organization that oversees aspects of immigration related to obtaining citizenship and VISA status. �uh, (pause), it is more direct interaction in Russia than here. On the other hand, uh, (pause) on the other hand, people here (pause) probably, uh (pause), eh, so, on average, so average person here would (pause) spend more (pause) time working. Uh, (pause) no, so, you know, it's not, you know, apple to apple comparisons.Where I worked with there was like a place for fanatics. So people there would come to work with I don't know, with, uh, fire in their eyes, and they want to do that and they will. I myself, like slept in the office on put together chairs because I didn't want to spend time going home even though I lived like 15 minutes away. Uh, so those people would work harder than the average Western scientist, but there are people who would come like, two days a week for, I don't know, for several hours, just to you know, be around the scene and they will leave and they will not care about anything. Claire: Hm. Interesting. Oleg: But I don't think it's comparable. It's different time, different place. Different culture. Claire: Yeah, definitely. Could you talk a bit more about like, the culture of the United States that surprised you outside of your work environment. Like is there anything, I know it's not like super comparable, it's very different, but any like shocks or surprises? [Section of transcript cut out as someone came into the room to try to use the space] Oleg: Uh, I’m trying to recall, so you interested in that moment, what I felt then? Claire: Yeah, yeah. Oleg: Well, so we lived in Pittsburgh, and it was, uh, so University of Pittsburgh, it's like in the middle of the city. It is like a university area, and there are two universities: Pittsburgh University and Carnegie Mellon. They're very close. Uh, but still, it is a city. It's not like UMD here, where you have your own campus, and nobody else here. So there it was mixed. So it was kind of city but with a lot of students and, uh, teachers and researchers. And I think what struck me at that time is– it was, um (pause) so we had a lot of like (pause), uh a lot of people (pause) feeling not free, but (pause) like relaxing, like chilling out. So people would go into restaurants; we would go to a restaurant. We had group meetings at a restaurant every week. Uh, students would like sit on the grass, uh in the park. There was like a botanical garden and, uh, we saw a lot of students there like, some of them studying, probably like here, now. Claire: Yeah, very similar. Oleg: Yeah. And it was not typical at all for us. So, uh, in Russia, they were in Soviet Union. Well, it was Russia already, but still it was like, Soviet based, uh, reality. So people would not go �to restaurants that often. Uh, if they study they would study at home or in the library (pause). If you want to party with party at home, if you want to play with your friends, you would go, you wouldn't, you wouldn't do that just on campus. So you could see people like sitting on the benches and doing nothing but they will just wait till the next, uh, uh, we call it pairs. So we had like a 1.5, two 45 minutes joined, lessons, like 45 minutes, 5 break, and then 45, and then sometimes the lecture will not even make the break. And we had like them, uh, sequential, so we will have three or four such pairs and very rarely you would have like an empty pair. Then you would like, you would have one hour and 45 minutes free and then you will probably go to, we also had like a botanical garden across the street. But it wasn't typical and I would, I wouldn't go there, I would find some quiet place and do something. Yeah, so here I felt it's more like, like relaxed. Maybe. Claire: Did you know English prior to coming here or did you learn it when you came here? ` Oleg: (pause) Well, technically, I knew English, but, uh, I could not speak. Well, I could say something. But I could not understand people at all. So whatever they were saying, it was complete music to me. I couldn't, uh, figure out where one word ends and the next one starts. So it was like continuous (pause) because we didn't just have, so all our English studies, it was, uh, more or less theoretical. So we never watched movies, uh, in school, we never talk to real people, so it was only textbooks and we will read so I, I had relatively, (pause) relatively high level, so I could build more or less complicated phrases, sentences, but, uh, understanding was almost zero. Claire: Did that ever influence like your work aspect? Like when you first came here for your postdoc or like anything about navigating the city or anything like that? Oleg: Yeah, of course. Uh, sometimes, so my advisor was, he is a quite generous and kind man and he tried to help us. So he put us in his house. Claire: Oh, that’s nice. Oleg: He would, uh, he would do group meetings at a restaurant and he would pay for that. Uh, and he tried to give us tips on what to see, how to get there. Uh, but I remember many times when he would advise us to do something. And then, uh, when we started doing that, we realized that actually it's not like he, we thought told us and then it turned out that we just misunderstood him. Claire: Hm. That's interesting. How fast were you able to pick up the language then? Like, when do you feel like you were fully, like, able to learn how to understand people better? �Oleg: I still don't understand people sometimes. I cannot understand, uh, any songs which I hear on the radio. I can pick up a few words here and there, but, and then in American, or I don’t know, English music is completely different from Russian. So here you have very, well, I don't know about rap and such stuff, but even regular songs like pop music, they have very complicated sentences with no rhymes and, uh, so there are some, but it is very hard to do that. So Russian music is much simpler. So you have, uh, all your, you have rhymes, certainly. And then all your words would fit into music very, very easily. So they complement each other much better. It's much simpler. Claire: That makes sense. Oleg: So I still don't understand and when southern people talk I also understand 30% (laughs). Claire: (laughs) that’s fair. Um, I was wondering if you could, like extending the timeline a little bit more so, you came here for postdoc and then you went back to Russia after like a year and a half – Oleg: – Mhm – Claire: – when did you come back here again? Oleg: Ah. Yeah. So we went, (pause) actually, it was my wife who wanted to return, so for her there was no question that we coming back because she's very attached to her family. And I was more flexible. I didn't care much. I didn't like, really wanted to stay. Claire: She wanted to return to Russia? Oleg: She wanted to return to Russia, and I was more or less ambivalent and I would say we can stay here, we can go home. Don't care much. Uh, so we returned home and then, uh, (pause) I returned to my work and, uh, we had a group of people, uh, and we were more or less friends. And once I came, a guy at work told me, you know that (pause) so (pause) well here you have to apply for grants. Uh, so we had like stable salary, but if you want to go to a conference, if you want to buy some extra equipment or even if you want to increase your salary, you have to apply for grants. Uh, so it was like I don't know, I arrived like one week ago and I'm in our office and we shared an office. Uh, there were like three of us. Uh, and he told me, you know that, uh, now it's close to deadline for grant application for NSF NATO award and it's only two pages and, uh, basically they only look at your achievements and recommendations. So you don't have to go into details about your scientific program or project you're gonna work. So it was, uh, in bureaucratic terms, it was quite easy. So you have to describe your achievements, people you want to work with, and your like, the general idea of your project. And, uh, that’s it, like two �pages maybe. And he said, Why don't you apply for that? And since I just came, and I said why? And he said they will give you money and then the chances are very, very little, very small, because they give out only 20 awards per year for all, uh, fields. It's like science and arts and everything. But he said, uh, you have to play many stage games so you’ll win in one of them. So he said just do two pages, ask your professor Pratt to write your recommendation letter. And I did that and I did not expect that I would get it. So it wasn't like planned. Yeah, I didn't think I would get– the chances were, uh, almost zero– but somehow I got this grant and then, uh, once I get it, of course, why not use it? Yeah. So it took us, uh, so we came back in 2001. (pause) I think it’s like, took us a year for this project to be approved, and then all this bureaucracy stuff. So I think we came back to the US after one year, like in the late 2002. Claire: Okay. Where did you move to in the U.S.? Did you go back to Pittsburgh or somewhere else? Oleg: Yes. So, since it was– the project– a continuation of what I was doing in Pittsburgh, and Professor Pratt wrote me a recommendation letter and some of his friends. So it was, of course like, natural to go there. Claire: Yeah. Makes sense. Um, how did you feel about moving back to the United States? Oleg: Uh, I did like the idea. So, uh, so while we were here for the first time, as I mentioned, Professor Pratt, was very generous and kind and he helped us a lot and he would organize for us all sorts of things that we enjoyed staying here. So, for example, if we had a conference, he would arrange that we would rent a car, and then we would drive, and the conference could be in Texas for example. So we will drive, uh, in that car from here, well from Pittsburgh, to Texas or to Colorado or whatever. And, uh, (pause) he will say don't rush. Take your time drive carefully. You'll look at whatever you find on the way and then uh, when, when we wanted to travel, like we bought an old car and he would let me go like for one weekend. We would drive to Florida. So, I knew that can get a lot of interest and stuff. And I knew the guy and I liked him. I still like him a lot. So I was – Claire: – You were excited? – Oleg: – Yes. Claire: That's cool. Um, how long were you in Pittsburgh for this grant project? Oleg: Uh, again, one year and a half. Claire: About a year and a half. What did you decide to do after that? �Oleg: Uh, at that time, well, we decided to return to Russia. Uh, at that time, uh, my son was born, uh, and actually, so my project was for one year, so I got decent money, $42,600. It was grant for everything. So that was my salary. And it was, so my salary was like $30,000 and then I had $12,000 for conferences and stuff. And that was much more than I had when I was a postdoc. So when I was a postdoc, uh, so they, at the University of Pittsburgh, they had some, uh, fixed stipends. I don't know how they call it, (pause), uh, like fellowships, and it was, I don't know, like $10,000 a year. And I, when I, just, uh, when we were discussing it before we went, I asked some of my friends who, so my, uh, few of my, uh, school friends emigrated and I asked them, so what do you think, can we live off 10,000? And they say, Absolutely not. So anyway, I asked them to increase and they, I think the best they could do was $12,000 a year. And there were two of us. And it was quite hard. So we, had I remember, we were buying this bread for 67 cents in giant, which is like was the cheapest one and you could, you know, press it into a small bowl. And we would eat, uh, ground meat, like with pasta all day long, because it was the cheapest. Uh, but still, and then I will get more money and it was for one year. Uh, but then, my son was born and he was very young. (pause) So he was born in November. Yeah. So, uh, he was born in November. So, he basically was born when my grant, uh, expired. Yeah. So we asked for an extension, and, uh, the NSF, or NATO, probably it was NSF, so they said you can extend but we will not give you more money. So, uh, my professor had to come up with some, uh, financing. But we still are grateful to him [the professor] because he [the son] was very, uh, young. And we didn't want to travel with our newborn child. So we stayed till May 2004Claire: – Okay – Oleg: – No. Four, yes. Claire: And then you went to Russia. Oleg: So we went back to Russia. Claire: Okay. How long were you in Russia then? Oleg: Uh, I personally was in Russia for (pause) four months? It was 2000, it was 2004. So we came in, like in May, (pause), uh, and I got sick, and I got into, uh, these hospitals specialized in infectious diseases. And they couldn't figure out what with me and I stayed there for three weeks or so. Uh, and then I returned to work and I didn't like it a bit. Not, not the work but like – Claire: – the environment? �Oleg: Yeah, so I got used to American style of life. And when I came back, I didn't like all these Russian realities. Uh, ao I wasn't quite happy. And then in, uh, August 2004, uh, head of my Russian group, so he was collaborating with many people, I mean, our group, so we had like joint, uh, research projects. So one of the research directions was connected to Pittsburgh, but the other one was connected with, uh, research of, uh, Walter Greiner8, and he's actually very famous nuclear physicist who predicted, uh, super heavy nuclear to be stable. So all this, uh, acceleration experiments, where people collide, uh, heavy nuclei, what they try to achieve, they want to check if his prediction. So, you, is correct. So what you have, so our Mendeleev table, you have, uh, elements from one hydrogen and then you go to, I don't know, 90s, where you have very heavy elements and they become unstable. So when you have uranium, plutonium, they are radioactive and they spontaneously decay. So you cannot have them, uh, for a long time. So they have, their not nuclear are not stable. And if you go to even higher the decay even faster. So if your uranium can, depending on the isotope, uh, some of them stable, but some of them are not. If you go to higher, you cannot find anything. So people achieved, look at 107, highest charge of the nucleus, but it was very short lived when they collide in the in the, uh, collider particles, if you go to higher, so what he predicted that, then you can reach an island of stability. So if you go to like 130, then those, uh, elements will be stable. So he was quite famous because of this work. And he was influential enough to, uh, start a new institute. So he worked at Goethe University in Frankfurt, uh, and uh, he wanted to start a new institution, which would be like partially affiliated with University of Frankfurt, but partially independent. And he joined forces with another guy, who I don't know, he, I don't even remember his name. He's like neuro, neurosurgeon and neuroscientist, something with the brains. So they study how brains work and our guy was nuclear physicist. So those two guys, uh, they both like were famous. And they wanted to create like, Interdisciplinary Research Center. And they started what they call Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies. And they were like recruiting people for that institution. And since our group collaborated with Walter Greiner, he invited my, uh, group leader Andrei Soloviev, to be research fellow, which is basically like full professor there. And he said, uh, suggest me a couple of like low ranking people who we put in right. So, uh, Andre called me– he was in Frankfurt at the time– he called me and said, we are doing this, would you like to join us? Uh, and I said Yes. And it was like very, very early stages. So, there was no even director. They were just like founding fathers, but no administrative stuff. So she said, you can come, uh if you are interested. So I went to Frankfurt and it was like, end of August to beginning of September 2004. So I spent like four months in Russia. Claire: Okay. How long did you stay in Frankfurt after that, and what type of work were you doing there? Because it was such an institution. 8 Walter Greiner was a German theoretical physicist, who spent time researching atomic physics, nuclear physics, and elementary particle physics; he studied physics at the University of Frankfurt and became an assistant professor at the University of Maryland from 1962 to 1964. �Oleg: Uh, well there we actually continued what would they have started working on while I'm on while I was in the U.S., so they started doing cluster research, okay. So a cluster is a collection of several atoms, but it is not a molecule, so you can have, I don’t know, an alcohol molecule which you might be aware of like CT, C2H5OH.9 So this is like chemical molecule where your atoms are bound by chemical bonds. Clusters, it's when you have, uh, a collection of atoms that may be bigger than molecules, smaller than molecules, but they are not, uh, chemical molecules in traditional sense, you can have I don't know 10 sodium atoms together. So it is not a molecule. It's just like a small clump of matter. And at that time, it was relatively fashionable direction, people tried to understand how you go from, uh, atoms to solids to bulk properties, atoms and bulk properties, even if the same element if you if you have sodium, sodium atom, or sodium two, which is like natural molecule, chemical molecule, uh, have completely different, not completely but quite different, uh, properties and bulk sodium, uh, and they wanted to see what goes in between and at that time, technology, uh, developed, so that people were able to create such clumps of matter. So we were, and they started doing that, and when I came back from the U.S., I like I joined the group, and I started doing that and we continue doing that in Frankfurt. Claire: How did you like Germany? What did you think of it? Oleg: I loved Germany. Claire: You loved Germany? Oleg: Yes. I like that they have such a perfect order in everything. Claire: Mhm. What do you mean by that? Oleg: Everything, I mean, public transportation, all buses, uh, spotless. They go by minute. They, uh, the streets are cleaned. People are organized. If they tell you 2pm, it is 2pm. Uh, in the offices, they, I mean, they keep their stuff organized. I mean, it's (pause) so everything is very well oiled and organized. And, uh, aesthetically, it's also beautiful and I, it’s very old and I like history. So I liked it very much. Claire: Yeah, that's cool. Did your, um, wife and kid come with you as well when he went to Germany? Oleg: Uh, not initially. So I went alone, just to see what’s, what’s going on. If it is indeed, will be finally implemented.We did not have, so the building was still under construction. So we worked in the university. And at some point we had to move, uh, so it was not clear what's going on. And 9 C2H5OH is the compound for Ethanol, which is a volatile, flammable, colorless liquid. �we just came from the U.S. My son was very young. So it was not, uh, an option for us to go three of us. Claire: Yeah. When did they end up moving to Germany with you? Oleg: I think, so I went like August to September. Then I came back for the New Years. (pause) And I think then I returned, to Frankfurt, and then I came back for them. So I think it was like March 2005. Claire: Okay. That makes sense. Um, How did, like, what was it like moving a family to Germany, now? Like now that you have a kid. Oled: (pause) Uh (pause) I don't remember any particular difficulties. Uh, my wife was very easygoing. She does not collect stuff. She's not attached to stuff and she’s uh, she can do with what she have, what she has. So it wasn't a problem. I rented an apartment, uh, and now I don't remember about furniture. (pause) Uh, we had, yeah, I got, I think from IKEA, one bed. We had one small table. One chair. And then I think that’s it. Yeah, the second room was completely empty. Claire: Um, How long were you in Germany? Oleg: Until end of 2007. Claire: Okay. Where did you go after that? Oleg: We went directly to the U.S. Claire: Okay. And this was when you moved to Rockville? Oleg: Mhm. Claire: Why did you decide to move to rockville? Oleg: Because (pause) at that time (pause) by the end of 2006, sometime after a couple of years in Germany, we understood that (pause) it is very difficult to assimilate. So it's all good. Everything's fine, but you are an outsider, and uh you’re gonna stay an outsider. There is no way you will be accepted into that culture. German culture. Yes. So that was one reason so, if, but it wasn't, like a really urgent reason.The other reason was that my son was growing up. And we started thinking where we want him to grow up. And we had basically three options. We could go back to Russia and raise him as a standard Russian kid. We could raise him in Germany, �because I had basically job, uh, stability and it was developing well so there was no, uh, reason for us to be afraid that we would need to find something else in Germany, so I would work there 10 more years and should not be a problem. Uh, so that was the second option. And the third option was to go back to the U.S. and uh, since he was born in the U.S., so he is a citizen. So the third option was to raise him as a U.S. kid. Since he already is a citizen, so why not? And we decided which country and culture would be better for him. (pause) And since we felt, in Germany, that we will not be assimilated. And, uh, (pause) yeah, he was like closing to the school age and he didn't speak German and so we decided that it is either Russia or U.S. and we chose U.S. Claire: Why did you prefer the U.S. over Russia? Oleg: We felt that, I felt that, there he will have more opportunities and the quality of life is certainly higher. So I saw that if we can do that we should at least try. Claire: Was your wife, like, in support of that decision? Or was she when you worked with her? Oleg: Uh, she was ambivalent. So she wanted to go back to be with the family. Uh, on the other hand, she saw that, indeed maybe, uh, so, I think I pushed for the more – Claire: – to go to the U.S.? Oleg: Yeah, so I was telling her, let's go if I can find job in the U.S.. Let's go there for a few years. Uh, he will learn English, he wouldn't be a native speaker. Uh, he will grow up a little. Maybe we will get green cards and then we will have freedom to move between the countries as we wish. And then we decide later, do we want to stay in the U.S. or go back to Russia? Claire: Okay, that makes sense. And you had your second son in Germany, right? Oleg: Right. Claire: Okay. So how was his citizen status, like played into this? Did he have Russian citizenship or – Oleg: – he had Russian citizenship, he did not have German citizenship. Claire: Okay, so Germany doesn't have birthright citizenship? Oleg: No, they don't. And it would require many years for him to acquire German citizenship. �Claire: Okay, interesting. Um, so how did you find a job in the United States that would like lead you to? Oleg: Ah, I'm just a very lucky person. (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) – Oleg: Completely randomly. I mean, uh, I have a group mate, uh, my one of, maybe my best friend, we were in, so in Russia, you don't do as you do here, everybody takes their own class and then everybody takes different classes, so we had the concept of groups, where you have a certain number of people, usually like 20, and then they would go together to everything. Claire: Yeah. Oleg: (pause) I don't even think we had any subjects for choice. So we couldn't choose anything I think. So it was pre programmed. Claire: Yeah. Oleg: So we would like see the same people six, eight hours a day for five years. Claire: Yeah. Oleg: So this girl, uh, she started, uh, studying in another university and then she transferred to us and she got into our group and we just befriended, uh, she was (pause) no, yeah, so she came in this in the second year. So she, uh (pause), she got married and then she divorced, and then she moved to the U.S. not even finishing up University in Russia. Of course, her mom works here. She works at NIST, or she worked at NIST, I don't know where she works now. Uh, so she, she went to UMD I think. Claire: Okay. Oleg: (pause) and she, they lived here, in, uh, in Bethesda, near Montgomery Mall. So I just called her and I said, Masha, do you know any opportunities somewhere in the US? Uh, and I actually was thinking about even changing my career into, uh, into IT. Cause, uh, so, it was, everything was fine at work. But it was very, uh, intense. Yeah. So it was very competitive, uh, so we have had this, our group leader who like he was like, full professor, and I was like, uh, one step below him. And then we got, I don't know, seven, uh, graduate student and like, four postdocs, and we had visiting scientists and, uh, it was very hard, I worked a lot, cause, so, I had to help him with all these grant proposals, uh, all this, like, social net, not social, like scientific �networkings, so I had to prepare a draft for him to send letters to different scientists. Uh, and I would be involved in organizing like, seminars and conferences. So we invited people from all over the Europe and from the US, so he wanted to be on the map. So he wanted to have a lot of communications with other groups abroad, so everybody knows him, he is like in the network. So we had to organize a lot of events. Uh, so I was doing this more or less administrative stuff. But on the other hand, I had to, uh, oversee all our students and do work myself. And when you oversee work with student, you have to not just see what he or she is doing, you sometimes need to help or even do it yourself. So I was doing like three jobs for myself for students and this and it was very hard. Uh, so I even had doubts if I wanted to continue in science, and I was like playing with this idea of why not go to IT field where money is better and work is simpler. Yeah. So my friend, Masha told me, so she has, uh, she has a friend who was married to a guy who works who worked where I work now. And, uh, she said, let me ask Tatiana, maybe Lesha may help you. So this guy, send me coordinates of this person who hires, uh, uh, uh actually, IT guys so this is mostly IT. So, we, uh, our institution mostly maintains updates and whatever, various medical databases, so they need a lot of programmers. Claire: Yeah. Oleg: So he's, she, so that guy who worked there, send me the, uh, coordinates of that guy who is overseeing, who was overseeing, hiring. And he said we hire all the time, just email him and ask if you have anything. So I emailed him and he responded to me and he send me like a questionnaire like with different programming tasks. And since I'm not an educated coder, so I did, wrote a lot of codes but scientific codes, so I was mainly interested in efficiency in terms of the, uh, how you calculate, say integrals numerically without losing precision and fast, and maybe you can come up with another method where you don't have to do it at all, maybe you can approximate it somehow. So I was coding, but it was a completely different type of coding. So she sent me this questionnaire very with coding questions like, I don't know how better memory is allocated in code A or code B, and why. (pause) So I tried to reply and, uh, I sent it. I now understand that I was completely below level, whatever, (laughs) possibly even couldn't even hope for that. But since I submitted my application, the questionnaire was probably unsatisfactory. He didn't tell me of course, the guy. But my resume caught the eye of my current principal investigator who is a physicist by education. And we are probably the only one group doing physics at that place. And he was looking for people with exactly my qualifications, so he wanted, um, quantum calculations, quantum mechanics, and uh, since it was like, submitted in and then it was like, standard procedure when they distributed, he saw my resume and he, uh, called me, we did, uh, phone interview. Then he invited me to come here for in-person interview, and then we moved. Claire: Thank you for sharing that. Um, so you haven't gone back since, like you stayed since you moved to rockville, here? �Oleg: Yeah, so we went directly from Frankfurt to Rockville. Claire: Okay, cool. Um, how was, so you mentioned that a simulation in Germany was, like, harder. Um, would you say that it's easier in the United States or like, how were you able to form a community here? Oleg: Well, it's not harder in Germany than in the United States. It all depends on the, uh, on your group. On your, uh, professor or principal investigator, yeah. So there in Germany we were trying to establish a name. So we will completely over the grid and we tried to emerge as an advanced group doing advanced stuff. And to do that you have to work very hard. Yeah. Uh, here it is more relaxed. It is government and you have job security. Uh, and there is no point in, uh, you know trying to organize a conference, because first it is the government it is not possible to do basically, resolve the bureaucracy. (laughs) Second, there is no point, if you need to talk to your colleagues, you can go to some conference and talk to them there so you don't have to push for visibility. Claire: Okay, that makes sense. How was it able, like socially, to make friends here, like were you able to form communities in any way? Oleg: (Pause) Well, here it was relatively easy. Uh, (pause) So say in Pittsburgh, we befriended a Secretary at the Department who knew our professor for a very long time, she was his personal secretary for a while. Uh, so she was invited to all our group events, so we befriended her and one guy in the group. And that was basically it. Uh, we met few Russians in Pittsburgh, while I was working too much and there was basically no time. In Frankfort, it was very similar. I actually again befriended the Secretary of the Department. (laughs) But just because, uh, I was alone, uh, and again, I was, especially first months. Yeah. And she was a German lady she was like 50 years old. And she was very punctual. And she would show up at work, like 6:55 in the morning, and I had nothing else to do and I wanted to do some science, so I would come to work also like around seven, and we would, uh, intersect like near coffee machine. And, uh, she would help me with Germany, like with sketching around and knowing what to do, where to buy things, and that developed into a friendship. But again, no locals. Yeah, but when we moved to Frank–, to Rockville here, we had two kids, and we went to all these, you know, kids' places like the playground. I don't know, like gyms. And then you have a lot of parents. And while kids are playing you stay with parents and you're forced to communicate. So this way, we did acquire some friends, and we could even pick and choose which ones we wanted. (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) That makes sense. I guess, thinking now on like, how long you've lived in Rockville? Do you have any like, thoughts on living so close to DC or anything or like, how like, that experience is? I guess. �Oleg: That's I don't understand what – Claire: – (laughs) I’m just gonna skip that question that’s not making any sense. Um, do you have any plans for the future regarding where you live? Do you think you'll stay here? Could you ever see yourself moving back to Russia or anywhere else? Oleg: (pause) Probably not, probably not. So we got settled in here, uh, so probably will just stay here. Claire: Yeah, that makes sense. Um, I think that kind of concludes everything. I don't want to keep you too long. Um, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you today. Is there anything else you would like to share with me about your story or experience? – Oleg: – No, If you have any questions which you think like later on, you realize that it would have been nice, nice to ask him, you still can do that. Claire: Okay, thank you so much. Oleg: No problem. � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/eb2a48c683258cf5545caa74f1a8c010.mp3?Expires=1779926400&Signature=P-7TL2iaUbp7Ajy43bHsSsNZS2mNolbg5rv%7E0w%7EWl3t0LmDH3PNqNrAxiuHooiTxmAQvBMhyfUkAI34KKlScW%7EV2A9wRKAyEvYyV85kC95E62HWZWvdVOYfGanZiD1Xp641QTay0sfb8LLrNE98sA1G2Z8Wp6iiqx34ue%7EpTDrRXsKNebCXv5kBFUZTKMhlYBoef-LmcxhN9EEZzwzLjSMQ0k1vRrwkhr1t-vFhLaWyQdxeYdtZwSa4iztRbeBhZ%7Em6bTBZYAcGP821feHPzR-XacCC3l7K903OeJptaTv%7EMswGQXXTpNeE6fC610b1WLPLfb9JuCTbkgnN%7ExbHjYQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 80b7fa32bbb7eaf1dfb327ce8c898deb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Claire O’Donnell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Oleg Obolensky Location The location of the interview Rockville, Montgomery Country, Maryland, United States Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Oleg Obolensky Description An account of the resource This interview between Claire O’Donnell and Oleg Obolensky discusses Oleg’s journey from Russia to the United States in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to complete postdoc research for one year on a J-1 visa. After he returned back to Russia, Oleg then traveled back to Pittsburgh to continue his research with an NSF NATO funded grant opportunity. In Pittsburgh, Oleg had his first son; then, he returned to Russia after one and a half years after his grant expired. After four months in Russia, Oleg moved to Frankfurt, Germany to work at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies. After remaining in Germany for a few years and having his second child, once Oleg’s first son reached school age, his family moved to permanently settle in Rockville, Maryland, where he currently works at the National Institute of Health. By mapping and sharing his immigration journey, Oleg describes assimilation into the United States compared to Germany and living through the collapse of the Soviet Union. Throughout this discussion, Oleg discusses how he received each work opportunity as being based on “luck”, presenting a theme of things happening to him by chance. Oleg’s story offers insights into how after the Fall of the Soviet Union, scientific collaboration between scientists in Russia, the United States, and Germany worked together to bridge research. In turn, these insights reveal how each scientific endeavor influenced Oleg’s immigration story. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR400 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Colleen Woods of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Claire O’Donnell Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 10, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, jpeg family Germany Opportunity Physics Pittsburgh Research Rockville Russia science Soviet Union visa https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/3ee4c9af88da9fa80aec53e102fa6ecf.jpg?Expires=1779926400&Signature=KWT%7ECr5Ax0feA%7Ex0Pei1TaUG%7E-bLMaObuoBpL4pLf7k6baSCxxriRaC0LulYl0RNbXlVNIS6L%7EQ3ibT2Wm7gQuaCxzbMnz6Eut-4zZX6rRyjO4JN74s6FKDY68-cBnuXzvNMHoymxv7Uiay%7Esnl6y5yJF06xKdx4Eo1h9LgjzwYFwkmytl8Hit%7Eyww%7EYd68bDGiYLNgBjRWiVKwEf-NEbLuHQvKH4dgmsZEbQgZvWPioayvdaYrtBhJfZv0PujbK8xDwchpPXX6VrsI1kQaB1W2m0a1ValUBtgxXGg6owKaQSD4RyBT%7EpxyVOA5VP1W5O%7EhCDmnJuk7bdJnqRut9WQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e98666e6979aaa1d79475efd3d4bcc1c https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/f73df764ec52e32c06cfcde3181ab0ed.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=o5%7E66Pk%7ENg3tN1nVCFNvV9ivlJCPD%7EKzzR0n-6d6mDn9ysznEJBhwuANf6cAujzSmoFFb8ykXv-ziRBY-%7Eal%7ErcIqWOIXThz9v7r%7Ecz-IOZ9zEUckFgGdT3tgVNodep6woZEzITCyhzWbrVzLubXZH9fOV05u52Q8DfYKpSFA7NAnd9j7GsDEUZO8nY4MRbnq05GZ%7EgLP8jRySRjAG4zDDVnLxsD2P4g9TU%7E%7EQHEknZ5UjPObd02Zi7pb0N8ZSbH7v8jyIPjkPBgshTkjyQNFEHThDpdwSV33ZHP6eDWiLPrhf5ZWnO%7EJItV8MNXkUnLaMpOw4VHy%7Eo9uHlj8Qmx2A__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 40c1e7812fbb7cbd39e595e5ded52233 PDF Text Text Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course HIST465– Spring 2023 Instructor: Dr. Anne S. Rush Interviewer’s name: Maggie Welsh Interviewee’s name: Marta Woodward Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Ethiopia Date of Interview: March 6, 2023 Place of Interview: Silver Spring, Montgomery County, Maryland, U.S.A. Introduction: This interview between Maggie Welsh and Marta Woodward looks at why she came to the United States and her thoughts of the United States when she got here. Marta immigrated to the United States from Ethiopia, but there were other stops on the way. Marta talks about the other places she has lived in between Ethiopia and the United States. She recaps living in Ethiopia, moving to Kenya when she was four years old, going to college in London, and then moving to the United States. She speaks about growing up in the revolution in Ethiopia, getting denied a student visa application, reuniting with family in the United States, passport issues, and race issues in the United States. She also talks about being the minority in the United States after coming from being in the majority. Keywords: Ethiopia, Kenya, United Kingdom, revolution, family, race, minority Welsh: My name is Maggie Welsh and I am interviewing Marta Woodward on March 6th, 2023 in Silver Spring, Maryland. Um, so can you tell me your date of birth and place of birth? Woodward: I was born January 5th, 1972, in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Welsh: Um, can you tell me about the environment you grew up in in Ethiopia? Woodward: Family environment or political environment or— Welsh: Um, family environment. Woodward: Okay, um, I grew up, um, with two educated parents, college educated parents. They were educated in the United States, um, so they were you know fairly well to do I guess you could say and um both my grandparents, both sets of grandparents were fairly well educated too, so education was a big deal in our household, but so was religion. Um, my uhhh grandfather had converted from Orthodox Christianity to Protestant Christianity because of missions that had been active in Ethiopia, so we were also, um, it was, I grew up in a, basically in a Christian household and faith was just a big part of all of our social gatherings and, um, and my both parents’ families, my mom’s family and my dad’s family were very, very close, so family gatherings were always just big intergenerational massive things and um as I recall, it was just a very safe and loving and warm and comfortable early childhood I’d say. Welsh: Got it. Um, and how old were you when you moved, um, to Kenya from Ethiopia? Woodward: I was four. I was about four, I think nearly five years old. Welsh: Um, and do you remember anything about like the moving from Kenya to Ethiopia or from yeah from [laughs] it’s from Ethiopia to Kenya �Woodward: Yeah. Um, I do. Not much, um, I don’t remember for example that my dad had already moved to Kenya a year in advance of us, so I don’t remember his being gone, but I do remember arriving in Kenya and being very happy to see him, um, with my two brothers and my mom. And I remember we didn’t have, you know, in those days when you got on a plane, this was in the ‘70s, um, in those days you still got dressed up, so we were all dressed up really well in our traveling clothes and when we got to Kenya, um, somebody gave us some flip flops to wear, so we could get more casual. So, I just remember getting flip flops, I don’t know why that was significant. [Welsh laughs] Um, I remember lots of pictures being taken. I remember just a lot of joy that my parents were reunited. Um, but I don’t remember much other than that. Um, I guess bits and pieces, and fragments of memories come from the years directly after that, like moving into our first house and just what Nairobi felt like initially, but yeah no I don’t remember the circumstances, you know, I don’t remember the anxiety and the political turmoil that drove us from Ethiopia, but yeah. Welsh: Um, and can you say why your dad went before everyone else? Woodward: That’s a great question. He went because his family, his immediate family, our nuclear family was kind of compromised and a little bit in danger because the government in Ethiopia was hostile towards my uncle, my father’s eldest brother, because this was a regime change in Ethiopia that occurred in 1974. There was a revolution and the emperor was deposed in military coup. And the new regime had it in for all of the peoples, all the people that were high ranking members of any part of the emperor's political apparatus and that included my uncle, who was a police chief. And so he had been imprisoned and had been on trial and my dad had been trying to support him and, you know, help with the law case, the legal case against him and so on. And it became more and more dangerous for my dad because in those days, the new military government was taking in anyone and everyone they suspected of being directly connected with the old regime, but then also peripheral people to that regime. So it wasn’t just the people who were in the government, but people connected to those people, so my dad counted. So, he left and went to Nairobi because, um, before, um, you know a few years before that he had lived in New York and worked for the United Nations there and there was a big United Nations headquarters in Nairobi, in Kenya. So he figured he’d go ahead of my mom to see if he could get a new job in the UN system and establish himself financially and you know um and then send for us when the, when the time was right. Welsh: Got it. Um, and how was life different in Ethiopia versus Kenya? Woodward: Oh, my goodness. Um, [laughs] you know it’s funny when you ask that. What comes to mind are all the photographs because that’s really what I remember. I think I have this sort of vicarious memory from the photographs, so in the pictures of Ethiopia, I see huge family gatherings. I see my great grandparents. I see my grandparents. I see cousins, extended family members, uncles, aunts and through the years my parents have pointed out well that was uncle so and so, that was uncle so and so, oh that was at the annual picnic where we went here, oh that was at the church gathering here. And so I think suddenly our family went from being this huge multigenerational, um, family to being a family of us five and the other members of the community that had fled Ethiopia and Eritrea. So it became very important for us to build other family in Kenya because suddenly we were just, you know, and there was no sign that we would ever go back to Ethiopia because you know they that’s just the way it was, you left Ethiopia, you don’t go back in those days, so, um I again I don’t remember that feeling of being, I don’t associate that time with loss or sadness, I think I was just too young, um, but I do remember �there were, you know, there was just a different way of socializing, it was just much smaller, much more intimate, um. But I do remember that we were, still, you know, most of the socializing we did was still with Ethiopians and still with Eritreans, there’s still sort of built a new family is how I’d describe it. Other than that, we were still, you know, very comfortable, my dad did have a job with the United Nations and we still, you know, went to good schools, and we didn’t, we were very comfortable, so yeah. Welsh: And, um, when you moved to the US, do you think that you still had that, um, strong like family, um, that you had back? Woodward: Oh, that’s, um, very, very interesting. Um, my parents' marriage broke up when I was eight, so probably 3 or 4 years after we moved to Nairobi everything fell apart in my family. So, and then I didn’t see my mother again until I was 23, so she, um, had first moved to Switzerland and then moved to the United States, um, and along with my aunt and so that was the family that I had in the States. Um, when I moved to the States it’s because she had sponsored me for a green card, you know like a legal alien, resident alien designation and so I came I guess to be with family, namely her, um, but it’s certainly no I don’t think it had that same feeling at all. My brothers were here because of college, so that was fun, you know lots of friends were here, but no, no that was I didn’t come to the States and feel like I had a ton of family at all, no. Welsh: Got it. Um and then so you went to University in London, right? Woodward: Correct. Welsh: And when did you realize that you wanted to go to, um, school in London? Woodward: [laughs] I didn’t originally—well I wanted to come to the States for college actually, um, but then I was denied a visa at the US embassy, um, in Nairobi. So, I couldn't come to the States and there are lots of reasons for that, but I long story short, I had no choice, I mean I am lucky enough and privileged enough to say I had to go to England. But, um, in order to get the education, I guess, um, that I, you know, that I thought would fit with my goals, um, and still go to an English speaking country, it was, it was the United Kingdom. So that happened not out of choice, but out of necessity, and that was when I was 19. Welsh: Got it. Um, what University did you go to and what did you get your degree in? Woodward: So, I went to King's College, um, London, which is a college, a member college of the University of London and my, um, undergraduate degree was in biomedical science and then I stayed there for my master’s in biomedical research. Welsh: Um, and did you get a, um, job in London after? Woodward: I didn’t. No, I came back home to Kenya because I figured, you know, that was home and I had my whole life intended to work in the field of international aid and development, so I’d thought I’d work for UNICEF or some other UN agency or non-governmental organization, um, and work, you know, in emergency zones. That’s kind of what my experience had been in my summer between my undergraduate degree and my master’s degree. I did, um, I spent a couple of months working in Rwanda right after the genocide and I thought that was my future. I just thought that’s what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. Um, and it just didn’t work out that way, so but long story short I left England and went back to Kenya thinking that I’d make my life and career there. �Welsh: And then what did you do when you got back to Kenya? Did you work there? Woodward: Yes, I looked for work for a long time and I finally found work with an organization that is, um, affiliated with Johns Hopkins University and it is, it dealt with public health issues and nursing in, particularly nursing in maternal and child health. And so I just was working, you know, on a daily contract with them in Nairobi because they had studies in and around Kenya. And so I was working for them for a little while, um, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t really sustainable long term kind of, you know, it was hourly pay kind of thing and it wasn’t like something that I thought I could do long term. Welsh: Um, and how, how long were you in Kenya when you went back after, um, college and then before you came to the U.S.? Woodward: Ok, so that was probably, I want to say I got back in September, um, I got back maybe in September and then I left again in—that can’t be right. I think I was there for like 6 months, half a year, something like that. Yeah. Welsh: Um, and just one more question on the topic of school. Um, what was—did you notice any, um, differences between your experience of school in London and Kenya? Woodward: Um, so, well you know when I was—I never went to, um, higher education like college and university in Kenya, so I went, I finished high school in Kenya and then I did all my college and postgrad studies in England. So, the primary difference was the, just a matter of levels yeah. Welsh: Ok, um, and was immigrating to the US more of a push or a pull? Woodward: Oh. Um, it was, it was a push. You know it’s funny a lot of immigrants say there’s no avoiding death, taxes, or America. It’s like if you have a connection in America, it seems inevitable that you will wind up there or should die trying somehow. So it’s a bit of both I suppose. Um, you remember that my mom had applied for me to have—to get a green card and that was the reason that I couldn’t go there for college because the counselor like the embassy said you can’t both have a green card application pending and a student visa application. You can’t, those two, you have to wait until you get the green card. So I put the green card application on hold, finished my education, and when I came back to Kenya, I pursued the green card because an Ethiopian passport, as much as I love, you know, my heritage, is the worst passport in the world to travel with. So if there’s any other passport you could have, other than Ethiopian it makes sense, so I felt pulled because you know I wanted to know my mom, get to know my mom and my brothers were here and America, I mean it’s America! But I also felt pushed because the yeah, the immigration application had already been started. I needed very much to not have an Ethiopian passport anymore, so I could travel without being harassed and I have been very harassed and so, um, yeah so a bit of both, I suppose. Welsh: And when you came here after college, it was just your mom and brothers? Was your dad here too? Woodward: No, my dad was not here. My dad was in Eritrea at the time. Welsh: Ok. Um, and how did you come to, um, America? On a plane? Woodward: Yes, yes. Welsh: And was the process like hard or smooth and did you hit any road bumps on the way? �Woodward: No, because then I had legitimate papers in hand, so everywhere I pass through it was clear that I was going to the United States as a legal resident alien, so I had status now. I wasn’t just an Ethiopian tourist; I wasn’t just some random person who could flee into the country and seek asylum. I was actually, I had a status in the States, so no. On that trip no, and that was my first time to the States by the way. I was 25, I think. Welsh: The first time you came— Woodward: To the States— Welsh: After college, was the first time you had ever been? Woodward: Yeah! Welsh: Um. Woodward: I don’t sound like it though, right? [both laugh] ‘Cause I went to American schools my whole life, so I have kind of an American accent. Welsh: As time has passed, how has your experience compared to what you expected? Woodward: Hmm. I don’t know that I had any expectations of the States when I came here, um, I guess I was pretty naive, honestly, specifically about race issues. Having grown up in an environment where it was 100% normal to be black and we were the majority, you know, the majority ethnic group in Ethiopia was of course Ethiopians, Eritrean or whatever and then in Kenya everybody was black, you know, and it was a very diverse and, um, multicultural city Nairobi, but so. And I think you know all the TV shows that we’d ever watched about the States gave us the impression that everything was cool in America, as far as race relations were concerned. It was really the OJ Simpson case that first kind of made me think, what is going on in this country, you know, why would anybody celebrate that verdict? It didn’t make sense to me. Um, it also didn’t—I remember when Marion Barry was, he was the former mayor of DC, he was caught with some kind of drugs in a hotel room with a prostitute and, um, and the black community leapt to his defense, and it just didn’t make sense to me. I just didn’t understand, and I just thought that those were aberrations in race relations and that otherwise black people and white people and everybody else in America just got along great. That was, that was my expectation and I remember, actually it’s funny that you ask because I remember the first night after I landed in DC, my brother and his best friend from Kenya, they were both in DC at the time, um, and me, we went out to the movies to, um, the Uptown on Connecticut Avenue and Independence Day was showing because it had just come out. And afterwards, and it was you know that was just like to me America on steroids, like ok I’m in the States and I’m watching this ridiculous movie, but this is awesome. And then we came out of the theater and my brother tried to hail a cab and nobody would stop for him. And then he told his Irish friend, “hey can you just, can you just stand out, stand out front and you hail it?” And that guy raised his arm and a cab stopped immediately and it was like my first introduction to like what, this is bizarre you know? And I really felt sad for my brother because he had spent, you know, his entire college career there and it just, it just understood that that’s what it was. Um, but it was a little bit eyeopening and then of course now, you know fast forward however many years later it is, maybe 25? See how old was I when I came here? It’s about 26 years now. I mean I, it is, um, very saddening to me to know the—that ideal that I had of America is not actually realistic and that there are serious fractures and that we have a lot of healing to do. So that’s maybe my main, my main growth experience with this country, but otherwise I, I have to say it is the refuge that I �always thought it would be in many ways. Refuge from day-to-day corruption, you know you and I don’t have to face that really. In Kenya, in Africa a lot of places you deal with that every single day, so that part of it has been nice, um, the orderly streets, trash pickup, all the conveniences of modern civilized life have not disappointed. But, yeah, but there are obviously some serious cultural issues we have to work on. Welsh: And so when you first came here, you went to DC and then did you live in DC first? Woodward: I did live in DC at my aunt's place. I’m very close to my aunt. She’s my mother’s younger sister, um, and my mom was living with her at the time, um, as well as my grandmother. They were both taking care of her, so I lived there for ten months, I would say, in Petworth and then I found my own place in Baltimore. Welsh: Gotcha. And, um, how do you think immigration changed you? Woodward: Immigration ok, uh, in the first place it changed me because it freed me, I mean it liberated me. Um, I fundamentally as a person didn’t change, but my circumstances changed because anyone who’s traveled with a passport through wealthier nations, like if you’ve traveled with an Ethiopian or African or undesirable passport through a wealthy nation, I mean it’s, it’s actually dehumanizing, I think. It’s really dehumanizing, um, and having the US passport is like such a, it’s such, um, I don’t know, it’s like a great lubricant of travel, you just sail right through. Um, and I don’t think people—I think people who are Americans and have always been Americans really take that for granted. When you’re trying to travel from country to country, across this world, which really belongs to all of us, and you are treated like, you know, dirt just because of your passport, it’s really humiliating and so that, that changed me, just the, you know, freedom. I still have scars from that, but I feel very free to travel and like any decent human being with the right to travel. Um, it also has filled me with a lot of guilt because I come from a part of the world that’s very, very poor and very, very troubled and so when I—every time I think about the convenience of being a US citizen and having my house and everything that having US citizenship has afforded me, I can’t help like in the same exact thought, I think about the people back home that I know, whether they’re family members or just friends that are, I hate to say the word, but I feel like they’re trapped in an existence that is just very very very difficult and so I feel a lot of guilt about it too. But mostly I just feel tremendous gratitude, I really do. In fact, you can see the tip of the American flag outside my window box there. I always have— even if it’s a little flag, I have a flag where I can see it because it means a lot to me to be an American as an immigrant. Welsh: Um, can you describe your first work experience in the US? Woodward: Yeah, I continued working for the same company that I had been working with, um, in Kenya, um, I just, it transferred me to Baltimore and I worked for Johns Hopkins over there, um, yeah. It was pretty dull work, data entry, you know, data entry and little bit of data analysis for studies that we were doing in maternal and child health. Um, yeah nothing too exciting and then after, um, that contract ended I temped for a while. That might be in your future too, I don’t know, but temping is hard, it makes, it makes a woman or a man out of you that’s for sure. Um, but yeah, so my early years in this country were spent doing kind of like grunt work and yeah. Welsh: And then after, um, when did you decide, ‘cause you went back and got your master’s. Woodward: I got my master’s right after my, um…you mean in teaching? Welsh: Yeah, in education. �Woodward: Oh, ok. Sorry. When did I decide to do that? Welsh: Yeah. Woodward: Oh ok. So I decided— Welsh: Or how long were you in the US before you decided to? Woodward: At that point I had been in the US, that’s a good question. I arrived in ‘95, maybe 15 years. 14, 15 years I had been here. Um, and I decided to become a teacher because I wanted a career that flowed with my kids, um, lives basically, so that’s why I decided to—and also because I had the example of my husband's family. Mark's family were pretty much all teachers and lived overseas and had a fantastic life and I thought that’s gotta be me. Welsh: Um, and so you worked all the way up until you decided that you wanted to go back to get your master’s— Woodward: No. Welsh: --or did you take any breaks? Woodward: I did. I took a ten year, I wouldn’t call it a break. I was a stay-at-home mom. It’s the hardest job I’ve ever had. [Maggie chuckles] Um, but yeah I, once I got married, um, to my high school sweetheart actually, um, I decided to stay home to be with the boys while they were growing up and part of the reason for that is just because I couldn’t afford to work. Honestly, day care was so expensive and the job, any job that I would get wouldn’t, wouldn’t do anything but pay for childcare, like it wouldn’t give us any extra money, so I figured I’ll just stay at home and not have to deal with childcare. So, that was ten years and then when my youngest son went to kindergarten, I went to University of Maryland. Welsh: Um, and what are the biggest differences between your experience of work in the US and, um, Kenya? Woodward: Ok. I only worked briefly in Kenya as a consultant. I didn’t feel like—I think one of the main differences that I can point to is not necessarily the nature of the work, but just the nature of the office. So, in Kenya there’s somebody who always comes around with tea, you know, and they bring you hot tea and, um, there’s just a lot more of a nurturing environment over there. And in the States it’s you show up, you get your work done, you don’t mess around, you know, maybe once in a while you take a lunch break with a friend, but it’s all business, it’s all business. The idea of somebody bringing you tea or coffee and whose job it is to bring you tea or coffee is so funny. Welsh: Um, and so going back to, um, how you met Mark, your husband, um, when did you meet him? Woodward: I met him when we were in high school. Welsh: Okay. Woodward: Um, yeah in Kenya. We were both in high school. Welsh: So, his parents were teachers there? Woodward: Yes. Well, his dad was a pastor, a missionary and his mom was the school librarian. Welsh: And then did you get—were you split up ever? �Woodward: Yes, we split up, um, after we started college. We had every intention of staying together, but it just didn’t work out. The distance was too great. He was at Swarthmore and I was at Kings and I mean there’s like this huge ocean between us and no email. There was no email in those days. There was no FaceTime. There was nothing. There was just the, you know, the Postal Service. It was just too hard and so we split up in our first year of college and we stayed split up for like a good five years before we got back together. Welsh: And then when did you get back together with him when you were in the US already? Woodward: Yes. Yup. Welsh: Ok. Then how long were you in the US before you married him? Woodward: Um, got married in ‘99. I think about 4 years. 3 or 4 years, something like that. Yeah. Welsh: Um, and has, so the religion part, um, do you, so you wanted to keep up with it when you moved to the US? Woodward: Mm-hm. Welsh: And do you think that it was a support system in any way for you? Woodward: My church groups and my small groups have always been a big support system for me, absolutely. Welsh: Um, did you start going to church like right when you came to the US or— Woodward: Yeah, I did. Welsh: And then overall, what is the thing you are most proudest of, proud of and why? Woodward: Oh my goodness. That is a really hard question. You mean as it relates to immigration specifically or just me? Welsh: Or just like you or life after being in the US. Woodward: I think the thing that I’m proudest of and it sounds really silly, is that Mark and I made choices, financial choices, that gave us a lot of freedom in life and that means that when we had the option to earn a ton of money and then you know, have you heard the term golden handcuffs? Like you earn so much money that you just can’t walk away from the job because now you have committed all that money to like the big house, the amazing car, the private schools, the fancy vacations, the circles that you run in. We said no to that, we just said no that, like it was available to us and in some ways some people think of that as the American Dream, like you get more and more and more, but we consciously rejected that to have a life that made sense and I am proud of that. I feel stupid saying that, but I am happy, I’m not proud of it, I’m happy we made that decision. I don’t regret it. Yeah. Welsh: And is there anything else you want to tell me? Woodward: I want to tell you, Maggie, that I want to go to Vail. I want to go to Vail and ski. Yes. I want to tell you as an immigrant, I am so proud that I am a skier actually! I am proud that I am a skier and I always look for other Black people on the slopes and I never really see them because I just feel like solidarity. I would feel a lot you know less like I stuck out. And then I found an organization the other day called the Brotherhood of Black Skiers or something. �There’s like tons of Black skiers out there, so. And it’s open to anyone. So I’d like you to join with me. Welsh: [laughing] Okay. Woodward: Seriously, they welcome anyone. Welsh: Um, thank you. Woodward: You’re welcome. � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/8c8bbce64e27368665292e93efe3ab21.m4a?Expires=1779926400&Signature=syHmK-Xuom%7E2L25%7EkcCqOhh9aYQyHPtxXmxGSGUsYbSs3SWLF%7EVKAj977kTNxVoOdzRQGuovibXPWizarqxAigLQOzaHEOvksH8Sunc-7ecsHpbxFagi5oq-b9xfvjdiE8GKMBwWFrYSe4pOgE7paLMsEyt677VjSisj4wMpH2o7XJ5ZaGOfsRd%7EsdkR1ST6ENEz0yyNozpzZjgKC6ckZuHjQsjxjrq9F9SAX%7EzPgqceQknFPa1ILaJTDaXOt-2qdY2Qc%7E2tZKyGlOyXiVW94C4QUfOzSp8gkRTE11JfyWu0LjN1x-8IaSzy979e4XTdapK5PYh0qXPurNkU-ENuqg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM b34c7db47100cfe548f4a6926709899a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Maggie Welsh Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marta Woodward Location The location of the interview Silver Spring, Montgomery County, MD Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marta Woodward Description An account of the resource This interview between Maggie Welsh and Marta Woodward looks at why she came to the United States and her thoughts of the United States when she got here. Marta immigrated to the United States from Ethiopia, but there were other stops on the way. Marta talks about the other places she has lived in between Ethiopia and the United States. She recaps living in Ethiopia, moving to Kenya when she was four years old, going to college in London, and then moving to the United States. She speaks about growing up in the revolution in Ethiopia, getting denied a student visa application, reuniting with family in the United States, passport issues, and race issues in the United States. She also talks about being the minority in the United States after coming from being in the majority. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maggie Welsh Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 6, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Ethiopia family Kenya race revolution United Kingdom https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/0d35d49fda04169d03882026be9edb67.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=e6Oa7nxjrHzksjPZcpr5h3alOSECfvgbvSZ-syQEWhy%7EJ3Xgka--E%7EjesjC1Eq%7EJG9aigzMrlx-sDqVS3GH1At90yPKSI5rDw7otoCQSF9Wdk7wvzNj8bSj4tUKrYZF3ewRpySGR6LGr9J2VH0F86P35wTta4vITgpJYeGn9bgAjOZ1f8AcS072ckkVraBY-KAX8b-mBm%7EmqGJbvCgwMZSdkDH5xfscBv0ilfmD04acXkNnLcd0v8hETEZ3GQSuBRJmX5zSxmwM2jI3StxejdDrhkTXQHLa3LbZc8gvkyDjhknC8SdMe50OuHAbv7DIxl-UQKwXx6VugH%7E0LhDEg5g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jade Shaw Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Suet Vu Location The location of the interview Rockville, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Suet Vu Description An account of the resource In this interview, Jade Shaw interviews Suet Vu and her experience as a young immigrant from Hong Kong to America. Suet Vu immigrated when she was 11 years old to Potomac, Maryland, and battled middle school as a non-English speaking immigrant with no friends or help. In time she was able to immerse herself and form an American identity, but later as an adult, she had to face the Anti-Asian semitism that came with COVID-19, which made her feel out of place. In this interview, we break down even more details about her life such as her childhood in Hong Kong, her family and children, her jobs in America, long-distance friendships that originated in Hong Kong, and most importantly, how happy she is to have been through it all. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jade Shaw Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 12, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History city English family Hong Kong school https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/5c8025105dc3f5cfbebfa62fd2707683.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=nH-ry4brd8D6ixfeABp6a6MSwWXzhZOMSo36n7ahcw6GHWR6xWe8x47EKp7FEIibp-3dVnf40LK8M3I2ayWTSgBnlaNGODdTFFrgRdRdEQqzeU2TZY9CAcsDyyaDuZEMFwgslrA%7Eb2EzZ1aYO%7EVl-k-86bBpOHySKAe1lFz5YEc7-wwARt71vtWYBMvAKxz-34aF9kv8Tqe8UnDY0ur5jyNcmDtcfH%7Eg7e-2qPJ-uVugEc0vUBu95kBHfyB0d2orixeFen7sf2jGJp666eWabYCqFsMHbscsKMIye7aqLHlonXx5U1UoBEr3wPiEYMETU2qTyfUoLRJCT5383CAlcA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 224ebfd18e7eee40c2250f7781a06ba6 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/eeee76a65f05a206408e4e5485a94725.m4a?Expires=1779926400&Signature=kb6yniWXIM7KYaKIgY12dbxbzhb5Qj67aY039cTu2yD8AHbrq%7EjBtvwJV9pOrBEJUDif3LT3TevuXDC4MtICehveVhIGMg1RNgm1wBPWYCm1kkRFOREHYC3FaqEumLQ1UnPzFe8GxBdXmdm3ESVZAUetpUF4BnfOp5slbeoz%7EOKeFc40yWE0%7EnAyr-FogwDgGvV6dxudzVaP0bz5yMWC5t3N2szeMpZKj5T7QaqeqER2QvOymU9cThB0nnR0sVsJZmXQcOrK3Zr0tBHaFShBOOPN03eJbZlQ4DG5mzS2%7E0uU75hdI8grEC7Xc3TayAB%7Exc04AdXqfKUScfsf3NdtKA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 3444f6824195450bccf03cccb74d252d https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/275820deab3e4be201e55af83effc234.pdf?Expires=1779926400&Signature=KlKAHQiaDK%7EdhZ31xwnKcE%7EYXB1146SAcJ4mqMi4YSI39mf1Oxh53moN7HD-viw6JQnfAaD%7EEhoMNC2O263GKLUP6R5mmnfrbgeKLpoe8GXdTiK9d30Gjmri54cUhhjG90S%7Ec1NmrvB7viPecpqoKp29oR0Zam9Aeh3PJYxI8-HhrRObrIHVOCgpgAxE0UWdo10%7EUWXbSIGwBTOMuIqCMVTlN5yHlU-jeR1W-AgQaWzBTgzNSg9S7cOGXFNvZsXOuYxq5vnftXduKWBt4k51BCyrMpSyLJ9oTwdPpjl8N8oYNDXNA6goAYQlYNtvbiios7OdgWtpAr%7E%7EyhqRnRmOPg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM cc059a93011778c3577925f97514c769 PDF Text Text Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course HIST 428M - Spring 2021 Instructor: Dr. Anne S. Rush Interviewer’s name: Elana Morris Interviewee’s name: Stella Averbukh Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Soviet Union (USSR) Interviewee’s Current Residence: Ellicott City, Howard County, Maryland, U.S.A. Date of Interview: March 7, 2021 Place of Interview Ellicott City, Howard County, Maryland, U.S.A.; College Park, Prince George’s County, Maryland, U.S.A. (Interview conducted virtually over Zoom) Introduction: This interview between Elana Morris and Stella Averbukh explores Averbukh’s experiences as a Jewish refugee emigrating to the United States in 1992 from the Soviet Union. Averbukh discusses her first few months adjusting to American culture, as well as the jobs she and her family took to make money, including working at a movie theater and as a parking attendant. Averbukh’s interview recalls the experience of learning English as an introvert, the expectations she had of the United States before her emigration, the role of systemic antisemitism in the Soviet Union as an obstacle to success, and the sacrifices she and her parents made for future generations. During the interview, Stella’s (I believe) daughter was singing; listeners might be able to hear her voice in the background. Keywords: Soviet Union, Ukraine, uncle, Jews, Princeton, relationship, job Morris: This is Elana Morris and I’m here with Stella Averbukh and today is March 7, 2021. Um I am talking to Stella from my apartment in College Park, Maryland, and she is in Ellicott City, and we are meeting virtually over zoom. Okay? So, why don’t we just start by a very basic question. What year were you born? Averbukh: I was born in 1970. Morris: 1970, okay. And um, what— Averbukh: I was 21 years old when we came from Soviet Union to USA. Morris: Okay. And um what city in the Ukraine did you live in? Averbukh: We lived in Kharkiv, which was the second [seventh?] largest city in Ukraine and at one point it was actually capital of Ukraine before it was changed to Kiev. Morris: Got it. Did you—did you always live there, or did you move around a little bit? Averbukh: Yeah, I always lived there. Morris: And um have you been back? Averbukh: What? 1 �Morris: Have you been back? Averbukh: Oh I—I personally never been back. Uh my mom she went back twice to visit friends and relatives. Not only the Ukraine, she also went to Russia. We have relatives living in Moskow and we have relatives living in St. Petersburg. Morris: Okay. Averbukh: So she’s been back there twice. But it was years and years ago. Morris: Got it. Um have you, so have you been in contact with them, with relatives or no? Averbukh: Yeah, we are in contact all the time. Morris: Okay, got it. Averbukh: A very close relationship. Morris: Yeah. What—so did you—um, when you emigrated, were you alone? Or… [I think Stella shakes her head here] No. Averbukh: No, no we came here as a complete family. With myself, my parents, and my grandmother. Averbukh: Um. And at the time we had my uncle, my mother’s brother. He lived in Princeton, New Jersey. And he sponsored our arrival to USA. Morris: Mm… so did you, um, did you meet him in Princeton? Averbukh: He met us at uh JFK airport. And transported us from the airport to the apartment that he rented for us in Princeton. And um he and—we’re Jewish, we are Jewish family. So Jewish um community is – in Princeton sponsored together with my uncles they sponsored our arrival and they helped us initially to uh adjust to new life, pretty much. Morris: Yeah. How was that adjustment? Averbukh: Adjustment is always difficult, right? Morris: [quietly] Yeah. Averbukh: Especially when you coming from completely country, uh don’t have good knowledge of the language, uh completely different mentality. Morris: Yeah. Averbukh: So it’s not an easy adjustment. Morris: Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit about the process of coming to the US? You said you took a plane—is that correct? Averbukh: Yeah, we took a plane. So there’d been two different passes for people coming to USA. We kind of um came after few years after the Soviet Union opened, actually the, the 2 �borders um allowed Jews to leave uh Soviet Union and immigrate to different countries. My uncle, for example, his path completely different. First, they went to Italy—actually they went to Austria first, from the Soviet Union. And then, from the Austria they uh most of the families went on to Italy, where they spent considerable amount of uh time, months, actually, before certain Jewish communities adopted them, sponsored them. And then uh from there they went to USA. Many families that didn’t find communities to sponsor them in um USA, they went on to Israel. My uncle he got uh kind of lucky. Lucky in the sense because Italy have so many people there. We can be sponsored. It was very crowded environment as you can understand. In Austria it was much more relaxed um environment and my uncle and my cousin, our oldest cousin Lina, they knew English very fluently. So, they were able to adjust more easily, they could actually make connections, uh friends in Austria, and find a job as well. So while they been waiting for some community to accept them here, they actually been working in Austria— Morris: Hm. Averbukh: —getting experience. Actually my uncle, he was able to find a job in his field. He was a he is turbine engineer. And uh he was working, and Lina, she was helping somewhere as well. So, and then um Jewish community in Indianapolis, Lafayette, Indianapolis, they accepted them and they went to Indianapolis. And Lina, she enrolled into ah Purdue University— Morris: Hm. Averbukh: —to finish her studies. Our path was different. Uh we went from Moscow directly to—firstly, from Kharkiv, we took a path to Moscow, and from there, [someone is singing Celine Dion in the background] uh we flown directly to USA, to New York City. So it was pretty fastforward path for us. Morris: Yeah. Did it take— Averbukh: It was that we had to file lots of paperwork, we had to go to Moscow for the interview. Our background was checked as well I believe. And once we’d been cleared, it was pretty straightforward. Morris: Mm Averbukh: We had to sell our apartment in Kharkiv. At this point we ki—they allowed people to start, it was federal apartment, but at some point they allowed people to buy them. So we bought our apartment a few years prior to our departure, and so once we departed we were able to sell the apartment and sell some of our belongings to people. And I believe that when we arrived to USA overall we had maybe between thousand and two thousand dollars from all proceeds from all of that. I cannot remember exact amount. We also had a few bags with our belongings, not a lot. Just maybe one or two bags for each. Pretty much when you go on prolonged vacation, like two week vacation—that would be a approximate amount of the luggage that you, you have. We also been able to take our dog with us. We um we built a crate for him to transport him uh in the airplane. So and we been able to bring him here as well. But that’s pretty much all we had. And then there after USA I don’t know where my uncle got the furniture and everything else, but probably secondhand from what I remember because it didn’t 3 �look new or, you know, uh very nice. But it was, you know, it was decent. And it was a big adjustment. [phone rings] My my mom, she was an engineer, she was head of big engineering department back in Ukraine, hmm actually software engineer. My father, he was an engineer initially. But um the salaries in Ukraine very you know um you know very small. It was not if you only lived on your salary you wouldn’t be able to really support a family. Even if you’re an engineer, even if you’re a very qualified engineer it was not simply enough. Uh so he abandoned his job and he, he was very good at photography, so he became a photographer and he was actually traveling photographer, he traveled from city to city and he took pictures of kids in schools. And then once he got this ready like at graduation pictures, yearbooks, things like that. And then he, once it was all ready, he traveled back and delivered the final product to schools. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: And that was actually, doing this, he was able to make pretty good living for our family compared to many people. It was very manageable. So both my parents, financially, they had been doing back in Soviet Union, they had doing completely something different. But again, once we moved here, especially we moved to Princeton, New Jersey area, has only been maybe besides us, two other families including my uncle’s family. So people speaking Russian has been something—something very new to people around—and actually it wasn’t easy to find a job— Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: Even for my mom, who spoke very decent English. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: Was my uncle and my mom who spoke very decent English umm, started a long time ago and had uh they had, you know, they had, they could, you know, they, even upon they arrival, they could communicate with people on—on a good level. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: So my mom wasn’t able to find any computer job in Princeton. Uh. People just did not, you know, didn’t believe in her skills and also they got kind of like looking a little bit suspicious. Morris: Yeah. Averbukh: They didn’t know what to expect. I believe if she came to Baltimore area, for example, she would be able to find a job, because at that point there was a big Russian community already, a big Russian community in Baltimore area and uh people knew what to expect. Uh but as it was then, we found actually Jewish community in Princeton, they found, they helped us to find jobs at the movie theater. Me and my mom, we been selling popcorn. Uh cleaning the theaters themselves, my father was uhh checking tickets and um doing, you know, like just random jobs at the theater. Um for me it was the easiest path. Pretty soon I went to community college, starting learning English, I decided not to take TOEFL, to get to the university, decided just to take English classes to get a B or high grade, and with that I would be able to move to university. I transferred part of my credits, which was probably over two years, 4 �and I went to, eventually I went to Drexel University to finish my degree. And it took a little bit over two years. Because Drexel, it has a very interesting program—you study half of a year, and then they help you to find a job and work half of a year. So, the programs that I had, it was very useful. So I believe that after arrival, I spent a couple of years at community college, and after that, two, or two and a half years at Drexel, graduated, and my husband, Sergei, we met back at the university in Kharkiv. He was, I believe, in Baltimore area. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: From the beginning, we came here we continued our relationship, right, he was coming to New Jersey every second week, and I was coming to Baltimore every second week, until I graduated. And once I graduated, I moved here permanently. And then my parents moved here as well. But um but once my parents moved here, my mom, she went to work for a bank. And my father, he worked at the factory. But it was not super jobs, but it was much better than where they started. And at some point of time, my mom, she decided not to go back to the software field, because her vision became really bad. She didn’t want to spend all her time working with computers, that pretty much was the only reason why she didn’t look for a job in software engineering. Morris: Got it. So okay, so let me just sort of make sure I’m getting the timeline correct. So when you were in um in Princeton, you, you worked with your parents at the movie theater— that’s right? Averbukh: At the movie theater, and then in parallel, worked at the garage as a parking attendant. We had several jobs in parallel, at the same time. Morris: So, was your mother only able to go back to software when you came to Baltimore? Averbukh: She didn’t go to software, she, at the time her vision dropped considerably, and she decided not to go into software. But she went to work for the bank. Morris: Ah—okay, okay got it. Um and how about your dad? Averbukh: My dad, he worked for the factory. Morris: Okay, got it. So you said that you went to, did you say community college, and then Drexel? Averbukh: And then Drexel, yeah. Morris: And you were able to transfer your credits, you said? Averbukh: I was able to transfer part of my credits because some credits have not—could not be transferred. For example, I was studying political science, uh, the history of communism, and things like that, right it was [unintelligible] in there. So nothing like that would be uh could be transferred to American universities so I lost a lot of credits due to that factor, but I was able to transfer all my technical credits. Morris: Got it. What, um, what kind of work did you do after you graduated? 5 �Averbukh: I, you know, even before I graduated Drexel help students to find jobs in they fields of study and help to find a job. Ah, actually, I had too jobs when I worked, when I was at Drexel. One was at, umm, I think a company called Princeton Instrumentals? And I don’t believe it exists nowadays. And then I worked for Digital Equipment Corporation, which was uh before it uh uh it was acquired by Hewitt Packard, by HP. And they are, I uh once I got this job, I actually stayed there in parallel with studying in Drexel. So I was studying full-time and working fulltime. Morris: Oh, wow. Averbukh: Uh. Yeah. So pretty much move my classes to evening, and but I’ve been taking probably around 20 credits at the university, and I was doing full-time as well. And once I graduated they offered me a full-time job, you know, permanent full-time job. But I already decided to move to Maryland to be with my to-be husband. Uh, so I just found new job, uh before I moved, and once I moved to Maryland, I already had, you know, job for me. Morris: Okay. So, um, I, I didn’t catch—where did you meet your husband? Averbukh: We met at the university, in Soviet Union. Morris: Ah, okay, got it. Um, so, did you know that he would also emigrate, had you, had you had any sort of plans? Averbukh: When we met, we, the immigration didn’t start yet, or it was about to start. None of us knew if we were going to immigrate or not. We started as friends, and our relationship slowly progressed into something more than friends. But his family immigrated to the United States six months before our family did. Morris: Hm. Okay. What year was that? Averbukh: It was so they came here I believe in November, December 1991, and our family immigrated in September 1992. Morris: Okay, got it. So um I guess was Yeltsin the president at the time? Averbukh: No, it was Gorbachev. Morris: Gorbachev, okay. Um. So, when you, when you decided to emigrate, did you think that um I guess, did you assume that you would succeed, or was it, was there any sort of precariousness there, I guess? Averbukh: Well, you know, we kind of knew that it was going to be okay, it was a lot, a lot of unknown, but our uncle’s family, we knew that they had been pretty successful. For example, my uncle’s family, when we came to New Jersey, Lina—Lina—well first they went to Indianapolis, Purdue. Lafayette, Indianapolis was the Purdue Universities. They lived there for a while, and then my uncle, since he had this experience from Austria, he was able, and actually he was able to find a job I don’t remember what was the company but was turbine some kind of engineering company in um uh Trenton, New Jersey. So my uncle, my younger cousin, left and my um uh aunt, they moved to Princeton, at that point. And Lina, she was uh completing her master’s 6 �degree, and on her way to her PhD, she stayed in Pri—she stayed in Lafayette, Indianapolis. So, when they came to USA with uh [name, unintelligible] to live with, uh close to my uncle’s family, and they knew that my uncle was pretty successful. My aunt, she stayed at home. Her English was very poor. Uh she could not, you know, she was, she was learning, she was speaking German really well, she learned German at school at the university but you know her English, you know, it was a. And she wasn’t very um. No, languages have not been easy for her. And she, her profession was a psychiatrist, she was a very good psychiatrist, she was practiced as a psychiatry for many years, back in USA, and actually, I mean, in Soviet Union, and actually when she left, some of her patients somehow found our phone number and started calling us and requesting that she would come back, because they didn’t want to see a different psychiatrist. We had to sometimes disconnect on phone, because the patients, they would stop taking medication, and then they would become very aggressive and they would curse on the phone, say very difficult things, uh, so sometimes we would have our phone disconnected for several hours. But they really liked um my aunt and they didn’t want to go to a different doctor, I guess, but here she could not continue being psychiatrist, just because she could not pick up the language. Morris: Wow. Averbukh: Uh, so that was another difficulty for my uncle’s family. Yeah but, for me, I had no doubt that I would be successful. Uh, my parents, they kind of, they kind of knew they would not be able to become, completely, you know, successful, just because of their age. And my father, like my aunt, he was very persistent, but he wasn’t able to learn English to the level which was fluent. He was giving 100 percent, even more, but it was not just easy for him, he was 50 years old, even over 50 years old when we came here. It just wasn’t easy to learn a new language for him. And my mom, she could, but as I said, we came to a little bit difficult place for her to find a job, but, you know, initially. If we went to a big city, she probably would not have any issues. Morris: Mm. So, what was your relationship with English when you came over? Averbukh: I didn’t really know English uh unfortunately. The English teacher that we had, she was uh sick person, had sig—significant heart issues. And she was sick most of the year. So from grade 6 to grade 10, which I graduated from high school, we only had part-time English teacher pretty much. On and off, on and off. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: And then I learn a little bit of English when I went to university, but I didn’t have any good um background. I could say uh, “my name is Stella, how you do,” and things like that, but I—I could not um have any meaningful conversations with anybody. Morris: Mm. Averbukh: It took me six months to 100 percent understand everything that people were saying, we had English—we had a TV on all the time when we at home. Morris: Yeah. 7 �Averbukh: And I was listening to it and watching movies and at some point, like it was a switch in my head, and I started understanding English hundred percent— I was reading a lot, I love to read. So, I was reading books, watching television. And at some point, I just started understanding English hundred percent. But I could not speak as well— Morris: Hm. Averbukh: —as I could understand. So that was a different issue. Morris: Yeah. Averbukh: And also, I’m an introverted person, for me it’s difficult to mm just start conversation in general, even if I’m speaking Russian. Morris: mm. Averbukh: In English, it was even more um difficult. Um, I would—I would get shy. And even if, uh, like when I know somebody really well, I, you know, I speak much more fluently than if I don’t know people. I’m just too much self-conscious, um sometimes and it gets in the way. Morris: Hmm. So— Averbukh: Even now. Morris: Yeah. Averbukh: And even now, but now I’m in a role, I’m a senior architect, Enterprise Architect. And sometimes I do, I do have to do um speeches and presentations and things, so I just mentally have to prepare myself. Morris: Hmm. Yeah. Averbukh: For doing that. Morris: H—How do you prepare yourself for something like that? Averbukh: You know, I just think about that and eh and I get there. Nothing special. [laughs] I just think, okay, have to do this [laughing], I go through this myself, once or twice, and once I’ve gone through this, it usually goes well. Morris: Hm. Do you, do you like public speaking? Averbukh: I don’t. As I said, I’m not a public person. That’s why I never went into management, I had many many opportunities to climb the corporate ladder, I was offered management jobs more than few times. But um I decided it wasn’t for me, I’m just not a people person. I just um, you know, as I say, I’m introverted. Morris: Mmm so— 8 �Averbukh: My mom was always [unintelligible] she’s very extroverted, my cousin Lina in Indianapolis is very extroverted and she—she actually did go into management eventually and she is doing—she is holding very um high up position right now at her company. Morris: Do you think the way that um your being introverted affected the way that you related with people when you were here for those sort of first six months or first year? Averbukh: I’m sure that it didn’t affect anything really. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: As I say, once I get to know people, I’m doing really well. It’s just the initial few minutes—well, kind of, sometimes, you know, sometimes I’m not sure like do I need to make an effort? Right? [laughs] I, you know, I have my friends, uh they’re living in Germany right now, I’m really close, I have a few friends who I’ve made throughout my life here and uh knowing that they’re not, for example I’ve been sent to many conferences at CISCA, and for some of them like uh leadership conferences, woman leadership conferences, and I meet a lot of people who are CEOs or other really important positions in CISCA. And um, you know, I’m just, you know sitting there like “do I need to make this connection?” Because I’m not going into management, why do I even need to make an effort? Morris: Mm yeah. Averbukh: But, you know, if I was kind of, like, I’m thinking maybe if I got here a little earlier? Like when I was still in high school? It could be a little bit different matter, when I learn English uh my mind was not so closed to foreign language? Because I don’t think I’m really language capable, right. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: As, uh, for example, my husband, we came here approximately at the same time but he was able to learn more and his accent is much less than my accent. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: But if I came here as a even high school age, I think I would be doing better and maybe I could open up— Morris: Hmm Averbukh: —better, but to tell you the truth, even back in Soviet Union, I always was an introverted person. I would prefer staying home and reading books, or I draw really well, as Julia [Julia is Stella’s daughter] Julia, she’s artistic type, I’m artistic type as well. I would prefer staying home and do stuff that I like instead of going out with my friends. Um and if I went with my friends, eh for example to a disco club or something, you know, I would get bored really soon. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: And I would just would want to leave and go back home 9 �Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: I’m just like this type of person. Morris: Got it. Um. So, so yeah, what did you do for fun in the Soviet Union? You, you said you like to draw, is there anything else? Averbukh: [unintelligible] you could do a lot of things. Theaters, movie theaters, theaters, ra— Soviet Union had really good culture. The theater’s been superb, it’s not only musical theaters like here, it was actually uh theaters-theaters is what they call [laughs] where you could get um, you know, real life situations, without, with unhappy endings. Morris: Hmm Averbukh: Many times, really, uh, really complicated um live uh scenarios. Very interesting, something like, I know that um [Al Pacino(?)], he’s is into the stuff—drama theaters, we called them drama theaters, that’s what they are. Musical theater’s been a lot in the uh the Russia, all of a sudden Ukraine had lots of mus—music theaters. But drama theaters as well. Ah movie theaters, of course. Um, what else? Um, parks. The nature was beautiful as well. You can do um some regular stuff Morris: Mm-hm. Averbukh: There. I would not call um it different, some things were prohibited, but by the time I went into the [unintelligible], it was almost at the end of uh um Soviet Union life [unintelligible] and m-much more things became more open and available. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: Uh if you talk to someone like my mom she will tell you that many things been prohibited and not easy. Morris: Yeah. Averbukh: It depends on the generation. Morris: Hm. So, um, was there anything that surprised you about the—or maybe not, I guess. A—about the difference in—in culture when you arrived, about um I mean even sort of pop culture I’m curious about, ‘cause we’re talking about the idea of like opening up and um things that were and were not prohibited. Um, I don’t know, how—how was that experience for you, if that’s not too vague of a question? Averbukh: No actually, I understand um, few things that been – that I noticed right away. I remember funny stuff, when I was in high school, my teacher um was telling us that you know, “there’s no grass in the USA.” They uh, actually [unintelligible] you know around ‘87, something, they started, some of the USA movies started finding their way on screen in Soviet Union. Morris: Hm. 10 �Averbukh: And we saw, you know, like you know, grass, we saw trees, we saw parks. But at school, she was like, she was telling us that it was, that it wasn’t natural. That it was all, you know, for the movies, and the grass, actually, it was pavement uh painted in green color. So when we arrived here, kind of, I always was suspicious that it was—couldn’t even believe it was true, but you know, it kind of like was still stuck in my head. So when we came here on our way from JFK to Princeton, we saw all this wonderful nature. [laughs] Morris: [laughs] Averbukh: Here goes the pavement, painted in green color! So that was funny. Um, as I said, movies had—American movies, they had just started finding their way around maybe ‘85, ‘87, before that it was very difficult to see anything that was not made in Soviet Union. Maybe in some— Morris: Hm Averbukh: —Soviet Block countries, Eastern Europe and but not from, not Western movies. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: And then, of course, it started coming into the private hands, people started traveling a little bit more, as I said, bringing cassettes, um you know videotapes with them and just been traveling from hand to hand people making copies. Then it, uh, started showing on some channels on TV. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: And you could see that by 1992 it was became more available. Then when um—so we saw some of the very popular movies that um, um, from here. Uh ‘noth—nother big difference from when we came here, it was actually a shock when we went to supermarkets and um different stores, we could not believe amount of stuff that we saw there— Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: —because shops in Soviet Union, it was, it was empty. Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: It was like what when coronavirus started and you go to Giant or somewhere else you go where the toilet paper or sanitizer or cleaning supplies and you see empty shelves, right? That’s what’s very very the same view, any shelf [laughs] in Soviet Union. Um the clothing um. Unless you went to the, like, market, where people been, you know, bringing stuff from the Soviet Block countries or Western countries, and they been reselling it, right? On this kind of, like, market. Private people, it’s not—not like the stores. And there you could negotiate the price and stuff and buy something more decent. But if you went to the store, official store, you would find um stuff pretty much is—is black or gray or blue or white. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: Nothing colorful. 11 �Morris: Hm. Averbukh: Really. And the material was not nice as well, so when—when we came here, I just been shocked um with uh, you know uh, the amount of things you saw in stores. And when I came here, I was very thin. I was probably, like, 48, I mean I—I’m going kilos, um el—probably maybe hundred kilo—I got—uh hundred eh uh, pounds at all, at most, right. And then within like couple of years, I gained some weight, so I became probably around hundred twenty, hundred twenty-five, just because I saw all the stuff and I was like bit shocked and I started eating more, and I didn’t realize that some of the things I ate, they had not been good for me, they had some ingredients that in general not good for you. Morris: Yeah. Averbukh: And it took me just like, once I went to Drexel University, somehow on its own, I dropped all this extra weight. Morris: Hm. That’s so interesting to hear about the, just the difference in the grocery stores. Averbukh: Yeah. Yeah, you would not be able to buy banana or um strawberries, for example. Any of the berries in the grocery store. Uh on the market, that’s a different [unintelligible], you could buy them on the market. But not in the store. Um any exotic, like, for us exotic fruits it would be pineapples, uh bananas, what else, the kiwi, you know, this type of fruit that was unspeakable of. It’s like, people, you—even if somebody saw it, it was like “oh wow, what— what is that!” Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: Uhh, Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola, it was, uh, you know, it was a product of, you know, pe—people I think I, you know, after e— [sighs] 1987, you’d be, you could—could buy Pepsi Cola or Coca Cola, but you had to stay in line. Like, long line to get it. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: Books for example, you could not get good books in a bookstore, you ah have to get in line, and some people stay overnight, hold the line for you, and then they open really early in the morning and some, you know, people who been in beginning of line, they would get the books, if you’d been at the [end of the line] you would not get the books. Everything was a deficit, you know. Morris: Could you reserve um, specific books? Averbukh: No. Morris: Huh. So you wait in line, and then when you finally get into the bookstore—bookstore, I guess, library? Averbukh: Bookstore, it’s a—probably bookstore. This also was a um mechanism, you bring the newspapers, old newspapers uh, magazines, anything like you could bring papers, like you could recycle and you can exchange it for books. 12 �Morris: Hmm. Averbukh: But they paid them from the recycled [unintelligible] and this is another, like, thing you—again, to do that you had to stay in line, to just to get the books. Morris: So— Averbukh: Ah, another difference you would be interested in, for example, universities. To get—Soviet Union, it was highly corrupted, um, society. To get into the engineering school, for example, it would not be, uh, so difficult, uh, if you been a good student, right? If you’re smart, good student in general, you have to get entry exam, it’s not like it’s uh different from uh [clears throat] how you get into the university here. Each university has their own set of the entry exams, uh very difficult ones, uh, you had to do, uh, well, Russian for ex— of course, um, language and literature, you have to do like really long essay, very detailed one, uh, you had to do math test, you had to do physics test, uh, few other ones, I can’t remember which ones. I think probably geography or history as well. So it was very, very comprehensive. Um and you need to, uh, you had to have certain amount of points, uh, for each exam to get into the, uh, university. Some schools, a lot schools, I mean a lot would be medical schools um for example foreign relations uh, uh, for example, journalism would be another one. That was extremely difficult to get in. You had to have—you have—you had to bribe uh people who were making admissions into the university to get in. And, some schools been like, completely off um even at least for Jews. My cousin, Lina, she always wanted to be a doctor. So, she graduated like with all straight A's from uh high school, she’s extremely smart, um, and, uh, she was, um, getting all the A’s on her entry exams into the medical school, and still not accepted. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: And, uh, still, and actually since I told you, her mom, uh, she was a psychiatrist, and her grandfather, he was a dentist, and both of them [were] one of the best doctors in the city and very well-known, and they been—been told, straight that uh, you know, that even with all the respect, and uh, no ma—even if you pay the admission board [of] the university, you wouldn’t be ab—she would not be able to get in, just because she’s Jewish. Um. Me for example, I wanted to be a fashion designer I was al—you know, artistic type and I always wanted to be a fashion designer. And once I graduated from high school we went to St. Petersburg, because it was one of very few fashion design schools there. Morris: Mm-hm. Averbukh: And my uncle, it—he happened to be the soccer coach for the St. Petersburg soccer team. So he had lots of connections, when we came there, he told us that “you know, uh, you guys probably had to come here two years prior, with her graduation date.” Be—at this point, like, all the places in the uh fashion school been already paid for? Spoken for? Uh “She could get for uh, probably, maybe she would be able to get into the uh shoe design uh faculty? But it was questionable? And uh if she wanted to transfer to the actual fashion design, you would have to do another bribe, in a year or so, even though my grades are good uh and I’m a good student there, even the initial bribe, it would be my parents’ life savings. Everything that they had would have 13 �to go into this bribe. So once I thought about it, I ju—I, you know, I just told my parents lets get back, um, to Kharkiv, and I just go to technical school. And that was it for then. Um once we came here, I had responsibilities too, because my parents, they sacrifice, right they, uh, professions, they sacrificed a lot for me. So, I thought that I was obligated to get, um, education and get a good job as soon as possible. Take the easiest path, right, the shortest path to success instead of, for example, dropping it all, and going to New York, and trying to make it in, uh, fashion industry. Morris: Yeah. Do you think that, um if you, I mean if you hadn’t been basically prohibited from doing that, do you think that you would have gone into the fashion industry? Averbukh: If I was born here, if I uh had a normal life like Julia has, for example, yeah I would just go and just try to make it there. But, as it was, um, at that point, um, you know, it was, pretty much, in my mind, out of question because I—you know [pauses]. Well, I felt like my parents, they, you know, uh, all their lives, whatever they’d done, they’d done for me, with me in mind, I was their only child. And I felt that I, you know, I had to help them as well. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: We had a combined income, it was our salaries, whatever we—we been making, at our very low paying jobs and plus my grandmother’s um help from the, um social security benefits, I guess like what uh, um, Medicaid, she was, um, over, I don’t remember how old she was, but she was over 70 years old when she came here, so she did get help uh from the government because we came as—as um refugees here. Unlike many people who trying to get, uh, to USA, right they, they don’t, uh, they don’t have a good way of getting here. We—we got lucky at this point that uh you know, Soviet Union was known for they, um, kind of an-antiSemite agenda, right, and how they treated Jews. And the Jewish uh communities uh have um, very strong lobbying, uh, Jewish lobbyists in, um, in USA, and they been—been able to open this path for Jews from Soviet Union. Otherwise, if we didn’t have this path, we would not be able to come here, or, our, you know, like our path would be much more difficult. And if you look at the people who coming here right now, they don’t have, uh, such support as we had at the time. Right, so, and many of them probably living in much worse conditions than we, uh, lived in Soviet Union. My family, uh did not starve, we did not have, uh, high crime, anything like that, uh so it’s just, um, a question of right time, right place, right? And. Morris: Do you think, um, you could talk a little bit more about what it was like to grow up as a Jew in the Soviet Union? Averbukh: It was different for everybody, um I can—I can email you the book, my cousin, uh, Lev, uh, he is, actually, uh, wrote a very boo—very good memoir, uh, of his family, of his growing up in Soviet um Soviet—Soviet Ukraine, I would say, their way of uh coming uh from, um, Soviet Union to Austria, and then to USA. And he, growing up, in school, so if you read the book it’s pr—it’s not a huge book, but it’s very popular ahh at Amazon? You can buy it on Amazon. And he, actually very known uh opinion writer for major newspapers like New York Times, Washington Post, and many, many others. Um, you can look him up, his name is Lev Golinkin. You will find him right away. I will—I will email it to you. He’s very well known, 14 �he—he is lecturing right now, his book was translated to many languages. You get an idea. But to say, his experience was completely different from mine, and it was very different from his, uh sister’s experience as well, he as a boy, he was tortured, really, in the school. Uh, he was one of these like, little geeky Jewish boys, and, you know, kids did not like him. But, for me, it was different, I was very well-liked. And my cousin, Lina, she was very well-liked. Not that we didn’t feel antisemitism in uh, Russia, uh, in uh, Soviet Union, uh, I—there was a teacher, for example, in my school, she—who hated me just because I was Jewish. But she was only one. All other teachers, uh, been, they been really good to me, and they, uh, you know, didn’t treat me any different than anybody else. And I was actually, uh. Now that [laughing] I kind of can compare here and there, I was part of a very popular crowd [laughs] in my school. Morris: [chuckles.] Averbukh: It just turn out to be that way, that I been growing up with this girls from uh, my childhood, and they been all Ukrainian Russians and they never been taking me differently, and I am friends with them up until this moment. And Lina, actually, uh, in school she did not feel a lot of antisemitism, but, as I told her, when it comes to the university, then it plays, um it came to the place, because she was Jewish, she could not get to the school she wanted to go. If you Jewish, you could not get some of the jobs. If you Jewish, it was very hard to get security clearance. My mom, she could not get a job at the military factory. Even though my grandfather, he was a head of a big department at the same factory, he got there, even, like, he was working there from the times of the Second World War. And by the time, my mom, she was um, um, she was out of the university, he was the head of the big, uh, department at the factory military plant. But even that, it was, you know it took, you know a lot of time for her to get a job there. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: And the same for my father, it was uh, very difficult, uhm, to get a job with the clearance for a Jewish person. Morris: It’s interesting to me that, um, you felt like you didn’t experience sort of, like, face-toface discrimination with the people that you knew, your friends, but there was sort of this systemic, um— Averbukh: It was systemic, we had, um, in our schools they been very few Jewish, uh, kids, uh in my class actually there was another girl, um, Ella, her name was Ella, and by—um, I don’t look really Jewish, if you look at me, I don’t, I don’t look really Jewish, but she did look very Jewish. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: And, uh, you know, she experienced much more, uh, you know, negative reaction from everybody. It all, it all depended on many factors. But yeah, if you looked very Jewish, you know, you could, you could be called names on the street, right, or in the line in store. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: On the bus, yeah. 15 �Morris: Hm. Um the teacher that didn’t like you, were there specific ways that she treated you differently? Averbukh: Yeah, for example she would lower my grade all the time. Morris: Hm. Hm. [pauses for a few seconds.] So um how has being Jewish, and how has your culture affected you, or how did it affect you once you came to the US? Um, you know, you said you found a really prominent Jewish community, how has that sort of— Averbukh: I, you know, we had a very good relationship, but um we’re not religious people. I personally don’t believe in god—my husband, he doesn’t believe in god. But culturally, we feel that we are Jewish. Yeah. So culturally, but not religiously. Morris: Mm-hm. Hm. Um. Do you still—are you still in contact with the same community that, that kind of helped you find a space— Averbukh: You know— Morris: --in Princeton? Averbukh: You know, they been like, we really been working closely with one woman from there, and with her we stayed in contact for, for a while. Um. But she, since she already died a few years ago, um Jennifer Waldman. Uh but um, as far as, like, Jewish community in itself, you know, we, you know, never been too close with them. Uh, it’s just been, we working with one. This one woman who been kind of like assigned to us, and she would come to our house and you know help us with um held our hand, yeah, and we had a very good relationship with her. Morris: Yeah. Who, um, who, who do you consider your community here? Do—er, do you have a specific one, or just sort of— Averbukh: No. No, no. I, you know, uh. We have friends. Right? Uh. As far as community, you know, I always been active at my, um, kid’s schools. I would help and volunteer as much as I can. Morris: Hm. Averbukh: But um and—and I volunteer as much as I can. As far as, like, church, or something or some kind of other type of community—no. Morris: Mm-hm. Averbukh: I’m not—I’m not involved in that. Morris: Yeah. Okay. Um hm. Um. I guess I—the only thing I’m, I’m sort of wondering is just, um, if you had any specific expectations coming to the US, and if you did, um, was it what you expected? Averbukh: Somehow yeah, somehow I always thought it wo—it would be easier, right? Morris: Hm. 16 �Averbukh: The whole integration, and everything that would be easier. And it was not, you know, it just turn out to be completely different from what we expected. Morris: Mm-hm. Averbukh: But you know our uncle was, you know, trying, kind of, to tell us uh a little bit. But it’s very difficult from a distance to understand, right, what really is going on. Morris: Mm-hm. Averbukh: Yeah even, even, like, I have friends in Germany now. And you know Germany and USA is completely different. So it’s still, the way of life here is completely different from the way of life there. And even with my friends in Germany, its uh some things are diff—uh difficult to explain. Morris: Um. Averbukh: [unintelligible] and you know, and you talking, is like, people on Mars trying to talk to people on, on Earth, and it’s very, very difficult. Morris: Um have you—so your friends in Germany—have y—have you been to Germany? Averbukh: Oh, yeah, yeah, several times. We actually travel a lot. Morris: Hm. Hm. Where are your favorite places to travel? Averbukh: Oh, we’ve been, you know, into many countries in uh Europe. We went to England, uh, to Spain, to Portugal. To Croatia, Slovenia, uh, the, uh Bosnia. Uh what else? Uh we went to uh France? Germany, of course. Oh, gosh. Few other countries in Europe. Um. Those a few. Uh, we—Still, because of the uh, uh, younger daughter age, we didn’t travel to Australia, New Zealand, or any uh places that would been taken more than seven hours to fly. But now that, you know, she’s old enough and can take a flight, we plan to hit, uh other parts of the world. Morris: Got it. I—I really hope that you can go soon, and travel soon. Averbukh: I’m sure, yeah as soon as we get vaccinated sometime, hopefully May. [laughs]. Well this year, we decided to go to Alaska, I already planning— Morris: Mm! Averbukh: --to go to Alaska. Morris: Hm. Very cool. Um. Okay, I mean I think, you know, I think I’ve covered basically everything I was really curious about. But, um I just want to make sure I’m not missing anything here—is there anything you would like to add? Averbukh: [sighs] N,o it’s a big—uh, it’s a big topic, right? Uh, you can talk for hours about that. Um but, yeah, I would really uh I will send you name of the book that my cousin wrote, and once you read it, it probably will take you one evening— Morris: [chuckles]. 17 �Averbukh: --or one day, you will get um very good idea about many aspects of the Soviet life in addition to what I have told you. I think his book is pretty good; some of the actual facts about our family is not really accurate [laughs], but it’s okay, it just more depends on just concerning my family. [laughs] Otherwise, it’s—it’s pretty accurate. Morris: Okay, um, I, I’m actually quite curious, I’d love to read that. Um okay, well, I think, you know I, I don’t wanna keep you for hours here, but I, I so appreciate you taking the time just to talk with me, and sort of explain, um, what your experience was, um. Averbukh: My husband probably will give you another side tomorrow. Yeah. Morris: Yeah. Yeah, I—I, I’m, yeah I’m looking forward to speaking with him. Um. Averbukh: You can also, you can also, if you want you can talk to my mom as well. She’s living with us. Morris: Yeah. I—honestly? Averbukh: That might be interesting. She’s 76 years old, she might be able to tell you a little more about some older times. Morris: Yeah, that, that sounds wonderful, I’d love to talk to her. Um I think—okay, well I, I will leave you here, but, um, what I’m gonna’ do is, I’ll forward you the um copy that I have of the form where if you want to, you can give permission to um, have the recording be in an archive. And, um, I think it might, it requires a signature. So if you have, like, if you can do a digital signature, that works. Averbukh: Oh, yeah. Mm-hm. Morris: Okay. Um so, so I’ll forward that to you, and you can take a look at it and tell me what you think, um. And, um yeah, I’m, I was so happy to talk to you, thank you so much for, for taking the time out of your day, I really appreciate it. Averbukh: You’re welcome. [laughs]. Good luck with your studies and with your article. [laughs]. Morris: Okay. Thanks very much. Averbukh: I—okay. Bye, Elana. Morris: Bye. 18 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2021 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Elana Morris Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stella Averbukh Location The location of the interview Ellicott City, Howard County, Maryland, U.S.A.; College Park, Prince George’s County, Maryland, U.S.A. (Interview conducted virtually over Zoom) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Stella Averbukh Description An account of the resource This interview between Elana Morris and Stella Averbukh explores Averbukh’s experiences as a Jewish refugee emigrating to the United States in 1992 from the Soviet Union. Averbukh discusses her first few months adjusting to American culture, as well as the jobs she and her family took to make money, including working at a movie theater and as a parking attendant. Averbukh’s interview recalls the experience of learning English as an introvert, the expectations she had of the United States before her emigration, the role of systemic antisemitism in the Soviet Union as an obstacle to success, and the sacrifices she and her parents made for future generations. During the interview, Stella’s (I believe) daughter was singing; listeners might be able to hear her voice in the background. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2021). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elana Morris Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 7, 2021 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, m4a Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History COVID family Jewish jobs Soviet Union Ukraine https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/a64196fbcd6d3a6244c40b686b5d9114.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=i9QCmABr1cIBauccttTcuHIqPRmcrLugI0wIORxJbpgzcPfPioFTrQtw61OFN45RZmFq3wxvYLgZrW4yRzC%7EarvydKWwNMaZHsM1nY903tqe5RkIcWT13z9bvJnKeaaP0YUXLanuf1SWwUeUxFHGV52917McKjv7dsynpY-5Dt9Neeey905g6ja1idUhfNdv7TQVTY6R2sxCY1CizuvV6rUuLzM8sx0mKnY23nY8ZJMFKHLRdwxv7n5C1yDLWmzhadI3cn5rj%7E-gRh4ccGFlVvvAoXF0nid8UDDl%7Ee%7ETh3c3nNK%7Ea6QHcxhtxjxNzkDo2StHCGfy6LZ5r2rpp495OQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2021 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Devin O'Neill Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed J.D. (pseudonym) Location The location of the interview Bethesda, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of J.D. (Pseudonym) Description An account of the resource This interview conducted between Devin O’Neill and J.D. explores J.D.'s experiences as an immigrant coming to the United States from Colombia. J.D. grew up in Colombia and decided to come to America as a part of his overall journey. He recounts experiences of mistreatment, struggles he had to undergo to survive in a new place, other trials and tribulations. J.D. presents his life in a more upbeat tone as he recounts his past experiences. He talks about his family in Colombia, education, trade work, his new life in America and much more. J.D. expresses how lucky he is to have done so well for himself and is proud of his journey. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2021). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devin O'Neill Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 9, 2021 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Columbia COVID education family https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/7fe4b52855c9817e95d265edad5eb985.png?Expires=1779926400&Signature=DnnAxLdYEi%7EsKULjV5O0Yf-VfyHGTfHOYLKg8vppkrs99-jGDiFs7VrMdTO%7EZgTjf%7ES1k3hWnUa26HCdiwy35rWipuahw4LLr0elUhfAhMdDb9RE5TxSUFzRUaPX2938tGN7AKR31KBPFLW%7EqS2D4X31MetabmkG5gR%7ExzVm8TbRkfzv4-bUNz0BlkvWDvE78Nv6UgCYJ7ntceakjpBDFBhrqyFwT9CcqpTvS4bm7uB9NH4tKCmMX5NAeTrXJ0dVt4pWXXdewhCvdrktru9bz4s6gbPDZCgVvSsHuRQYrco3NOWgzIrhQjp0CQxF%7EC-Yn8vxaKSF7f3SEIBDHwor0g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2022 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data doc, mp4 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Will Lobo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Keith Lobo Location The location of the interview Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Keith Lobo Description An account of the resource This interview is between Will Lobo and Keith Lobo. It explores Keith’s immigration from Pakistan to the US as a student and how he adapted to American culture. Will and Keith also discuss their family and how Keith’s immigration process affected the family. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR 400 (Spring 2022). This course was led by Professor Robert Chiles of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Will Lobo Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 12, 2022 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, mp4 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History family Green Card marriage Pakistan Student Visa