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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2018 Interviews Description An account of the resource These interviews were conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park courses THET489V (Spring 2018) and HIST428M (Spring 2018). THET489V was led by Professor Esther Lee of the School of Theatre, Dance, and Performance Studies, HIST428M was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities. Both courses were sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Andrew O'Connor Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philippe Dessauw Location The location of the interview Gaithersburg, Maryland Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data PDF, MP3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Philippe Dessauw Description An account of the resource This interview of Philippe Dessauw, a French immigrant to the United States, explores various topics including family, stereotypes, friendships, and employment. Philippe discusses cultural differences between France and the U.S., his work as a software engineer, and the use of technology to retain relationships with family and friends. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course THET489V (Spring 2018). This course was led by Professor Esther Lee of the Theater Department, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Andrew O'Connor Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 29, 2018 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, MP3 Language A language of the resource English Communication community cultural differences culture education employment Europe family food France friendship higher education language return migration science stereotypes technology television traditions visa https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/0ba632bca179b60161c8b249ac4ddfab.png?Expires=1785369600&Signature=aQADMgJj0UblbERmn-NzVS-c9mkCLHpUeMZLYOncztS4w6wJGv6qSpWVS3Yj2uZ9ZSSDxGywT2pCtBZZ9bMY3hUmd2zi0BeDdiwfdZ77vPRDf-RI5Lx8IoqPlW8qRKAXOo5xYIpeR1k3N7ArmIeicfE-lY-QcAGeBbRZuhYgIjsn4yp1jdcN-owDZWzKyTesBhxagVaM%7ESDl%7EBpWsxSrnGkddZkCIx82mu7wTUp9cfEUdJ4J6eVE1KWl0pXXzymZgBCObz2kXx4bn9ctPScCBrF2BYO2kTJqVWy7EeMf5WcbxeB5p7p9iSlS5B8NYSlQsZzNJZaN2k9aJnkQjL0QdQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM cbc24005c8eca61f08a2344fbff9e121 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/2613415697c927acae8b7fd74ec910ad.pdf?Expires=1785369600&Signature=NMmoW4S1fkHVCfVD8Cfh9hkwiTagRZZUzMFcA1iev8rXL8xAj1QIabsZ6wx8qBnV3aSzitui-4v5VLp9AkPH9nFDk5H0pxS5zbo-f4JNXFE81Iu2lpI3v%7ERN%7EMc20yIGRcTNQEsBXMCDkTjYOhX735TD1zujmi-AWQApSY6ciG63iAQtHW9ik4Ci9GKzBOyOfsdVD03Lqty%7EGRK-VvQ8%7Ef3GOOokec8X8-UrZU04ESgnC86URGxdsNsQqWSsrg9CwgUO3Y84681qF5R1If9-syinzMCfZnFgZzkHFnRoqFFeXUAu0iUCX9uM1wPqLQ3jGxmXuZ3bVO7zNffEBJJVUw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e707bb0ad371ac8b879621fa94869f59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2017 Interviews Description An account of the resource These interviews were conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park courses THET428I (Spring 2017) and HIST428M (Spring 2017). THET428I was led by Professor Esther Lee of the School of Theatre, Dance, and Performance Studies, HIST428M was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities. Both courses were sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Angelina Dirina Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dysia Sobol Location The location of the interview Hyattsville, Maryland Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound PDF Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Dysia Sobol Description An account of the resource This interview between Angelina Dirina and Dysia Sobol explores Sobol's experiences as an immigrant to the United States from Azerbaijan/Russia. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR400 (Spring 2017). This course was led by Professor Esther Lee of the School of Theatre, Dance, and Performance Studies, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Angelina Dirina Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 27, 2017 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English assimilation Azerbaijan childhood communism culture Culture Shock democracy education employment family food language marriage Migration refugee Russia Soviet Union USSR visa https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/23ffa7699eb0332ce6e957685ac99b52.png?Expires=1785369600&Signature=X6c9wQfDzIR0p55KTPCFNOUPPy2e3-NWNiWW9YHIAixKHO3cNHTmSKdNFv8Lqt4xhjLvwq0SN803%7EQDHRmXS5bqe92FU8vT2%7EJF7UhqxXN7EQtWBzcmxCgx-17BkWWK0aG1JH37wLTLGmgNErREp7IN2mcCecV3Yltma7DHLYktSQ5Y3KN0MLGFdJGUQPYCeLNthav4eWyMel3Oxf1-w-ZS4bq6GvcB%7EFhXjIVzhIkSAwoGpdxdLCbREhbG3KCYD0hGGluBZjsLmb1DrtmM5JjvbHLZNCFlgXFDZZSa0KDeDu4ii68aiLWpG9TIJkQOnvPH5GJDMwI--fhFEzWdL8g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/b9cc9fdc5d65e5eed0a31c9deaad87d2.pdf?Expires=1785369600&Signature=K8Zz-jRygzUEsBmEPRC-NtIMEoTuMQKsW%7EYzlu20HbA2CFE4ILHZtWPgcp%7EHFAWU1Ojx%7E33Wm2TT0BIGx%7ESEvt5frxohY-fARASjxyTBs4N8bGOyfSLGINrYDQlVnn68zMzEl51tg6wpcKMEzect%7EOi2Ut790i7JTXiJEqt0C1LWiKMZ5%7ELU%7EuPRjro8lC0bD4DJ7aCXWH9GZKgV-5JmzOQTQzMU32TULHWq-TZ4PXphzFEw6lfrI-0P3FF6Z2YCtEqUgRIK68dKg-S19NE0BWroz3l8bU4h57yaav-kgO8Q7BxtHadlgeygqZk-0TtHMokL%7Erxq5WYfugzCEKlrZg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 775823f9a926b4e4c4869d4c4e8fe4e6 PDF Text Text 1 Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course HIST 428M – Spring 2020 Instructor: Dr. Rush Interviewer: Anthony Hassan Interviewee: Faizah Haddad Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Jordan Interviewee’s Current Residence: Damascus, Maryland, U.S.A. Date of Interview: March 9th, 2020 Place of Interview: Damascus, Maryland, U.S.A. Introduction: This interview between Anthony Hassan and Faizah Haddad follows the life of Faizah as she grew up as a Catholic girl in a predominantly Islamic nation of Jordan and her immigration to the United States. Born in As-Salt, Jordan, Faizah went to Catholic school for 7 years and then public school for 3 years. Soon after her family arranged an early marriage for her to start a family. She and her husband had two children and traveled around the nation for 8 years, escaping war, terrorism, and economic uncertainty. She recalls experiences related to the Jordanian Civil War and the early wars on the West Bank of Jerusalem. Then her husband suffered an early death due to leukemia. Without a penny to her name and no work opportunities available for women, she and her two children left Jordan for the United States in hopes of a brighter future. Faizah continues her recollection with stories of adjusting to America, finding work, and raising her children as a single mother as well as her memories of her former home. Keywords: Jordan, Black September, Civil War, West Bank of Jerusalem, Single Mother, Catholic, Arabic Hassan: Alright, my name is Anthony Hassan. I’m int—I’m interviewing Faizah Haddad. Um, the time now is about 4:35 on February—not February, March 9th, uh 2020 and we are in Damascus, Maryland. How are you doing today Faizah? Haddad: I’m doing okay, thank you for asking. Hassan: Very good. So, um, I want to ask you a little bit about, um, where you are from. Haddad: I’m from Jordan. Hassan: Like uh what—what city? Haddad: Uh originally, I’m from the second largest city in Jordan, called As-Salt. �2 Hassan: Could you spell that for me please? Haddad: S-A-L-L-A—S. Salt. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: S-L-A-A-T. Hassan: Gotcha, Um-hm. Alright, and um when—when were you, uh, born around there? Haddad: I was born in 1949. Hassan: Mhmm. And, uh, you lived there for how long? Haddad: I left Jordan when I was 27 years old and I came to the States 1975, May 28th. Hassan: Alright. So, while you were living in Jordan, growing up there, could you walk me through like a typical day? Haddad: Uh, it’s very, very, uh, laid back people. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: Uh, very simple life. When I grew up, we didn’t have electricity, we didn’t have radio. Uh, we used to read on the lanterns. Hassan: On the what? Haddad: Lanterns? [pause] It’s like candles, the light candles. Hassan: Oh, like a lantern?! Haddad: Lanterns, yes. Hassan: Yeah. Haddad: That’s what we used to read, and after like in the ‘60s we started getting the radio, the black and white TV, and the electricity. We used to have—well, we didn’t have, uh, I mean, regular, you know, WSSC [Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission – the local water & sewage company]. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And—but now, Jordan, it’s very, very modern. I go visit every year, two years because I still have family there. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And uh, what? Hassan: (chuckles) No—no that’s great, that’s great. Umm, I also wanted to ask, so, like what— what was like happening, like globally, when you were growing up, there? Um— Haddad: The weather there, it’s very nice in the summertime. �3 Hassan: Okay. Haddad: We didn’t have humidity. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: It’s dry weather, it’s most[ly] mountains. We had only a small sea called Aqaba. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: In uh—part of the Red Sea. Hassan: Okay— Haddad: And the—the Spring there, it’s beautiful, the Fall, it’s nice, the winter, it’s—we didn’t see much snow in Jordan. Hassan: Yeah, I—I think in 2013, that was like the first time they had snow there in decades. Haddad: Yes. Hassan: (chuckles) But, um, yeah, I know, I—I’ve seen pictures, it looks like a really lovely place. I plan to go someday soon. (laughs) Haddad: Um, the mountains there are so beautiful, the cities there are so beautiful, we have lot of historical places to visit. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: You know? Hassan: Oh yeah. There’s like the Petra and, uh, the kingdom. Haddad: Petra, Jerash. Hassan: The Jerash. Haddad: Northern Jordan is so beautiful, they have very, very like old, old castles. Haddad: Mhmm. Haddad: You know? It’s—it’s nice to visit there, you know. Hassan: Oh, yeah. I also wanted to ask, so um, since you grew up there, you know, from—from birth to um your late twenties, uh you went to school, I’m assuming? Haddad: I went to school and I finished until 9th grade. Hassan: Did—was that like typical to go and then stop at a certain point or was ninth grade like the end? Haddad: No, no, no. The reason I—I couldn’t finish my, uh, education, I didn’t go to high school, I didn’t go to college because I get married young. �4 Hassan: Oooh. Haddad: I get married when I was 17. [pause] And this is normal in—in the Arabic countries, especially in Jordan. Girls, they get married early. Hassan: Yeah, um— Haddad: Especially—[pause] (whispering) stop the recording. Hassan: Okay. [Recording pauses.] [During the brief pause, Faizah took a moment to express a bit of discomfort around the topic of early marriage and culture politics foreign to the United States. After a brief reassurance that the purpose of the recording is to accurately document her life as an immigrant and not to alienate her culture, she allows the recording to recommence.] [Recording resumes.] Hassan: So, um, that’s good. And, you know, uh how does, like um—oh my gosh, I completely blanked. (laughs) So, when you’re—when you’re in the village and stuff like that—was it a village or a city? Haddad: It’s a city. Hassan: It’s a city, sorry. Haddad: It’s a city, like the second—second largest city in Jordan. Hassan: Second to Amman, right? The capital. So, it must be huge. Haddad: Yeah, yeah Amman is the capital of Jordan. Hassan: And then you said you, uh, got married at 17 and then you left Jordan about 10 years later. What was happening in between that—that decade? Um. Haddad: I have two kids. Hassan: Okay. Haddad: A boy and a girl, okay. And, uh, I lost my husband. Did I have to write that? Hassan: (chuckles) Would—would you not feel comfortable saying that? Haddad: I lost my husband when I was 21. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And I have the opportunity to come to America. I brought my kids and I came to the United States to start a new life. Hassan: So, what—what was that opportunity, if you don’t mind me asking? �5 Haddad: I mean I always heard America is the land of opportunity, when you come, they—you have—we didn’t have much freedom in Jordan as Christians because the majority is Muslims [Islamic]. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And, uh [pause] I came here to the United States to look for better life for my kids. And [pause] thank God they doing okay. Hassan: Yeah. Haddad: After all these years, we doing good. Uh, we feel comfortable here. Uh, in the beginning it’s so hard to, you know, come from country to country. Different culture, different language and, uh—but with the years go by we get much, you know, much easier to live here. And, you know, to have opportunity to work, to make a better living for—for yourself. Hassan: And when you came to the United States, what, how—how did you get here? Like— Haddad: I get my visa. Hassan: Visa. Okay. Haddad: Yeah. Hassan: And did you come on a boat, on a plane? Haddad: No, on the plane. Hassan: On the plane. Haddad: Yeah. Hassan: Uh, what was the process of obtaining a visa like? Was it—was it difficult, was it easy? Haddad: In the old days, it’s much better than now. Now it’s after, uh, 9/11. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: It’s very hard to get a visa to get to the United States. But before, it was, uh, very, it’s easy to get a visa to come here, and, uh, you know, to get your, uh, green card and, you know, be a resident in the United States. Hassan: And, um, eventually you—you guys all got your citizenships, right? Haddad: I have my citizenship, my kids they have their citizenship. Hassan: Was that a—how was that process? Haddad: If you live—after five years in the United States and you have a clean record, you can apply for your citizenship and you can get it. �6 Hassan: Okay, very good. Um, if you don’t mind, uh, me touching back; so, when you were in school, um, what—what was—were there like different school options? Did you have—did it— was it like here where if you live in a certain place everyone goes to this school, or? Haddad: No, the city they have schools. So, we used to walk to schools, no buses. Hassan: Right. Haddad: Everybody walks to school, sometimes some—some, uh, kids they walk like 2 miles to get to the school. No buses, no cars, no carryon to take the children—the students to the schools, they walk, we walk, everybody walk to school. Hassan: And, uh, did they have like—what kind of subjects did they teach, do you remember? Haddad: They have regular subjects, you know. English, history, geography, math, uh, chemistry, science. All is exactly the same thing, but in the Arabic language. But we—they teach us second language, it’s English. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And Jordan used to be ruled by the commonwealth. Hassan: The commonwealth? Haddad: Yeah, but after that, [in] 1956 they took—Jordan, they got their independence. Hassan: I, um, I actually did a couple—a little bit of research on the history of Jordan and I think, um in the—in the time period that, uh, you were living there, there were actually a few kind of like, not so much wars, but there were some conflicts going around. Haddad: Conflicts in—in the seventies between the Palestinians, PLO, and the Jordanian army. Hassan: Right, um, d—did that affect your life every day? Did you ever witness anything? Haddad: Yes. Hassan: Would you mind expanding? Haddad: We—we couldn’t go out, we couldn’t leave the houses, we live under the, uh, you know, down in like the basement. Uh, we know, uh—but, I mean, we heard—we heard the, uh, you know, the bombings, we heard the fire, we saw the fights, but—it’s scary. Hassan: It sounds like it. Haddad: Yeah. Hassan: Um. But, you know, it didn’t last too long, right? Haddad: No, it didn’t last too long because the Jordanian army took over and they stopped— they had a cease fire, and they stopped the war. �7 Hassan: And—and, um, I’m sure that actually, um, heightened, you know, um, perception of Jordanian culture, right? Like, um, from what I’ve seen, Jordanians have a very large sense of pride in their culture, [for] where they come from. Haddad: We are very proud, Jordanians—one thing about Jordanian people, they are very generous. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: They are very hospitable, if you visit them, they’ll do anything for you. Hassan: Of course. (laughs) Haddad: Okay, and uh, very happy people, they like people. Uh, now, now these days, Jordan is for everybody, it’s open, it’s like a safe haven for everybody. Hassan: Oh yeah, um, very, very peaceful nation now. Haddad: Yes, I hope it stays this way. (Both laugh) Hassan: Um, so, I also have, uh, another question for you. Was it—so, you—you got your visa and, um, your family, you all came, um, you and your two kids came to the United States. Did you know anyone in the United States before you came? Haddad: Yeah, I had some of my cousins here before I—when I came. Hassan: Okay and when you—when you—did they like, uh, help you, not so much choose, but did you go to where they lived so you could all be close together? Haddad: I lived with my in-laws, they was here before me. I lived with my in-laws, and I start working and, uh, they took care of my kids, you know, when I was working. Hassan: And did you also work back in Jordan or just in the United States? Haddad: No, no, just in the United States. Hassan: Okay. Um, so, how—how was the, uh, if you don’t mind me asking, how—how was, uh, life, you know, being a single mother, raising two children in Jordan before coming to the United States? Haddad: It’s hard. It’s hard but if you have the strength, and you have the courage, you can go through it. Hassan: Yeah, it’s a great story. (chuckles) Hassan: Um, did you, um—I’m so sorry (laughs). So, but, uh, in Jordan, kids—there weren’t like child labor laws either though. Right? Like you could, uh—there were things saying children were allowed to work in Jordan, not like, you know, like hard factory labor, but they had like smaller jobs for—for children to work. �8 Haddad: Not too many jobs in Jordan because Jordan, first of all, it’s very small country. They didn’t have any—I mean they didn’t have, uh—they live—most of them farmers. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: You know, they lived what they sell from their farm and the kids help their parents in the farms. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: Yeah. Hassan: So, what—what kind of uh agriculture did they farm? Like, what was— Haddad: They have olive trees, they have fig trees, they have, uh, fields of wheats and all the harvest. Everything in the harvest fields, they have it, you know, vegetables, almond trees. Jordan, that’s why they call it uh almond Jordan’s because they have trees of almonds and trees of uh pistachios, they are famous with that. Hassan: I love their pistachios. Haddad: Yes! Hassan: Um— Haddad: And grapes! Hassan: Oh yeah, got to get the grapes! Haddad: Grape vines everywhere in Jordan because it’s mountains, you see, it’s very beautiful scenery to see all the mountains full with, eh you know, grape vines, and fig trees, and stuff like that. Hassan: Oh, I’ve seen the pictures, it’s gorgeous. (laughs) Haddad: Yeah. You’ve never been in Jordan? Hassan: I’ve never been! I’m planning on going this summer. Haddad: You should go, you know. Treat yourself, not now with the corona virus, nobody wants to go anywhere. (Both laugh) Hassan: Right, I’ll go eventually, I’ll go soon. Haddad: Yeah, hopefully. It’s nice to go for a visit. Hassan: Now that school is about to be over too. Um, I also have a, uh, another question for you. If you don’t mind me, uh, just touching back. So, where—when you left Jordan to come to the United States, where did you come, initially? You said you lived with your um— Haddad: Direct, I came here to the, uh, Maryland state. �9 Hassan: To Maryland? Okay. Haddad: Yeah, I live in, uh, Aspen Hill area, in Silver Spring and Aspen Hill area. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And when my kids moved to Damascus, I moved with them to the Damascus area, in Montgomery County. I mean, I’ve been here since 1975 in Montgomery County. Hassan: And, um, how old were—were your kids when—when you came? Haddad: When I came? Hassan: Yeah. Haddad: Uh, 6 and 9. Hassan: 6 and 9, oh wow. And—and they, you know, of course, went to public school and everything? Haddad: Yes, they came to public school, my daughter went to Maryland University [The University of Maryland], graduated from Maryland University with consumer economics. And my son, he didn’t go to college, but he finished his [high school education], but he is very smart! Hassan: Yeah. (Both laugh) Haddad: And he’s doing very well. Hassan: Yeah, yeah. Um, did you find it easier to raise them here, in the United States, or more in—in Jordan? Haddad: Uh, they have better opportunity in the United States. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: You know, and [pause] it’s hard but we—we manage. Hassan: Oh yeah. Haddad: You know? Hassan: That’s—that’s good to hear. (laughs) Um, another thing is, um, when you came, you know, you said you learned some English in school. Haddad: The second—uh second language in Jordan is English, you have to take it with, uh, you know, with your uh n[ative] language, you have to. They teach—always teach English after—with the schools, in the schools. You know? Hassan: So, would you say your English was—was pretty good when you came over? �10 Haddad: Uh, it’s—it’s good, they teach us the proper English, you know, but here they have the short English. Hassan: Yeah. Haddad: You know, but I went to, uh— when I came here, to learn more English, I went to the adult education school for English, in, uh, Wheaton High School. I went two evenings a week. Hassan: I actually did not know that. (laughs) Um and did you feel like that—that kind of helped you get more adapted? Haddad: Yes. Yes, this way—and I work—and when you work with the—and you have to learn English no matter what. When you work with people, they don’t know your language, you have—you force yourself to learn the language. Hassan: And where—where did you work, if you don’t mind me asking, what did you do? Haddad: I work, uh in the beginning, I work at Holiday Inn for two—uh, two years and a half. And after that I applied for Giant Food Company, and I work as, uh, a baker. Hassan: Ooh, (chuckels) and, um, excuse me, did you find it easy to get those jobs, like initially when you first came? Haddad: I just applied, and they expect—accept me. Hassan: Very good. Um, and those were like your first jobs, huh? Haddad: That’s my first, uh, you know, I worked with Giant for 34 years. Hassan: 34? Wow. Haddad: Yeah, and I retired. Hassan: All 34 is, uh, in the baking? Haddad: As a baker. Hassan: Which Giant was it, if you don’t mind me asking? Haddad: I worked at different Giants. Hassan: Oh, they—they moved you around? Haddad: Yeah. Hassan: I bet you brought up their sales, everywhere you went! (chuckles) Haddad: Yeah, I used to do a lot of cakes for them. Hassan: Um, and, um, all the while, your kids were going to school, you were learning, you know, you were brushing up on your English and getting things better, and then you said eventually, um, you moved out from your in-laws, right, and you moved with your kids to Damascus. �11 Haddad: Yes. Hassan: Did—was that— Haddad: No! My in-laws passed away, you know— Hassan: Oh! Okay. Haddad: Okay. Hassan: Sorry. Haddad: It’s okay, I moved myself, when I started making a little money, I moved by myself, with my kids. Hassan: And that was still in Aspen Hill area or into Damascus? Haddad: I lived in Aspen Hill area around 25 years and then I moved here [Damascus]. I’ve been here, maybe, uh, 16 years. Hassan: That’s quite some time. (chuckles) And, um, just a little more about the process, um, you—you said came in on a plane, you had your visa, your papers, all that stuff like that, um, how—did—how was your perception of the United States, when you first came? Haddad: (sighs) I mean, you—you can, like I said before, you can—it’s a new country, a new people, a new culture, a new language. It’s going to take you a while to adjust, but I’m—I’m happy. I think I made the right decision to come here. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: Don’t take me wrong, I miss my country. Hassan: Oh, of course. Haddad: You know, my—I’m proud to be a—a Jordanian, but at the same time, I love the United States and I lived here more [longer] than I lived back home. But you always miss your na—uh, you know, native county because you grew up there. Hassan: Mhmm. So, we also talked a little bit about being, um, in—it’s an Islamic majority country... Haddad: Mhmm. Hassan: Jordan. Um, now this is kind of a sensitive question, so, you know, answer however you feel comfortable, but did—was there a separation between, um, you know, being a Catholic person versus, uh, living in an Islamic nation? Haddad: Actually, not really. We lived together, respect each other. Respect our—there is ex— extremists. Hassan: Mhmm. �12 Haddad: Until now, they have the extremist uh Muslims, they hate anybody not Muslim. But, when we grew up there, we didn’t have this. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: We grew up, uh, respect each other and, uh you know, uh, we lived like a family together there. We shared their happiness and their sorrow, they—they shared our happiness and our sorrow. We never had a problem with that. I mean, but when it comes to religion, I mean, there is limit. Hassan: Of course. Haddad: Okay, there is like they said redline. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: You don’t talk about religion, you respect them, they respect you. Hassan: People first, right? Haddad: People first. Hassan: That’s good, yeah, um, I think the thing is like extremists are a very small minority. They’re not the—they’re not a representation of the group. Haddad: [At] that time, we didn’t have, you know that [extremists], but now it’s getting uh worse and bigger. You know, like ISIS. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: Like Boko Haram, the one who’re killing people in Nigeria. You know, and uh, these people, they are very—they don’t belong to Islam. Islam is not like that. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: I mean, I grew up, my best friend she was Muslim. Hassan: Do you still keep in contact? Haddad: Actually, no, she get married and she moved away. And, that time, before, we didn’t have a lot of connections, no telephones, no messenger (laughs). Now you connect with everybody on the, you know—the technology now different than 20-30 years ago. Hassan: Of course, it grows fast. Haddad: Yes. Hassan: Um, so when you—when you left Jordan, you said, um, around that time, that’s when you started getting radios, the water and everything like that. What was the United States like, technology-wise when you came? Did they have like computers and telephones yet? Haddad: Telephones, yes but not computers. �13 Hassan: Okay. Haddad: Maybe, um uh, limited. Hassan: Yeah. Haddad: The comp—but, phones, yes. Hassan: Did you find the—the new excess of technology—was that more helpful or was—did that actually make things more difficult to adjust to? Haddad: Now—now it’s more helpful. Hassan: But at the time? Haddad: Before? Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: Uh, I wasn’t, uh, I mean, I didn’t need to use it or to, you know, get involved with it until my kids grew up and they start using it. Hassan: Okay, so it—it kind of was just there but not— Haddad: There, you know, but now we—it wasn’t necessary that time, but now it’s necessary. Hassan: Mhmm, I 100 percent feel that. (chuckles) Haddad: You know. Hassan: And then, let’s see. You said you also had like your cousins here. When you were coming. Haddad: I had my cousins, I have uh my sis—my younger sister and my nieces they live here. Hassan: Oh, you had siblings? Haddad: Yeah, I have one sister. Yeah, my younger sister she lives here with her family and her husband. Hassan: Oh, so, umm, is it just one sister, or? Haddad: Mhmm. I came from a family of eight. Hassan: Oh! Haddad: Yeah, but I lost, uh, five of them and only three girls left. Hassan: Jeez, was it— Haddad: Back home. Hassan: Yeah. �14 Haddad: They died back home in Jordan. It’s just me and my younger sister here from my family. Hassan: Were you young went that happened? Haddad: No, I was here when they passed away. I—yeah. Hassan: Um, hopefully natural, or not painful (nervous chuckle). Haddad: Old age, and you know, they older than me, all of them, yeah. Hassan: Okay, and, uh, do—do you still keep in contact with your sister? Haddad: My sister? Yeah, she lives here, only like 15 minutes away from me. We see each other at least once a week or every 10 days. We talk—we talk to each other daily, you know. I now, with the technology, with [Facebook] messenger and, uh, viper, I call my nephews and nieces back home. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And, I have 37 nephews and nieces. Hassan: (chuckles) Haddad: And, I don’t keep in—in touch with all of them but some of them. Hassan: Of course, I mean that’s a lot to. Haddad: Yeah. Hassan: Um, so it’s good that you had some like family here, you know, must have made things a bit easier to adjust, I hope— [inaudible] Haddad: Yeah, I have in-laws here, you know, brother in-law, and, uh, their—their nephews and nieces from my fam—uh, my husband’s side, they live around here too. Hassan: Did they contact you to come to the United States, or how did—how did that go through? Haddad: They here, they—all of them came here, you know, the immigrant open for everyone. Hassan: Okay, I—I see what you mean. And let’s see, let’s just touch back on a few things. Um, as far as living in American goes, um, did—you know, you mentioned, briefly, stuff like 9/11 and these Islamic extremist groups which some people project on to the Arabic people, but as we know that’s not a good representation. Haddad: I never had a problem here, with that. Hassan: Okay. Haddad: That’s the honest truth. Hassan: That’s good! �15 Haddad: You know, here they respect the human—as a human being, they respect you, doesn’t matter who you are. Because this is—this country is built on foreigners, you know. If you want to come to the United States, they respect you, you have the opportunity, to become a good citizen in this country, and you have the right like any other American. Hassan: I know, that’s like the beauty of this place, huh? Haddad: This is the beauty of America. And you know what? God bless America, it’s good country. Hassan: I know. Are—are there any, uh, stories you have from living in Jordan? Haddad: Uh, I went to, uh, Catholic school with nuns, they are very strict, but the same time they teach you all stuff they’d never teach you in this, uh, American schools. Hassan: So, you went to Catholic school? Haddad: Mhmm. With nuns. Hassan: With nuns. Uh so, there was—there were Catholic schools in Jordan, and they were separate from the government school? Haddad: Yes. Hassan: Okay. Did, uh, did that impede you to, you know, make more friends or did that actually help? Just being with—and did—did they—how—how did the Catholic school work, I guess is—is what I’m actually asking? Haddad: It’s any normal school, you know. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: But there, uh, most Christians, they send their kids to, uh, Christian schools. But until 6th grade, after that you have to go to the public school. Hassan: Ah, okay. And, um, excuse me (chuckles). And do you remember, uh, like what your parents did for work and stuff like that? Haddad: My father used to have a lot of lands and he used to be landlord, he used to plant all kinds of vegetables and, uh, grape vines, and they, uh, collect all of the harvest in the summertime, sell it. They lived on that. They didn’t have jobs, their job in the—their farms. Hassan: And that was, like, typical? Haddad: Typical, typical, uh, Jordanian people. The young people, they work, some of them, in the government and you know. Some, uh, young people, doctors, nurses, teachers, you know. But my parents, my dad used to be a landlord, had a lot of land. Hassan: And, if you don’t mind me asking, um, do you remember what your husband did? �16 Haddad: My husband used to be a teacher. Teacher, not to teach [in a school], he teaches like, uh, carpenter. [He] teach the kids how to do, uh, cabinets, doors, I don’t know what they call it in English, what kind of teacher is, uh— Hassan: I think you had it, a carpentry teacher. Haddad: Yeah, that’s what he used to do. Hassan: Yeah, which—woodwork. Woodworking, that’s—that’s what it is. Haddad: Yeah. Hassan: Um, and did you, um, not work in Jordan because like there was like no need, or? Haddad: I mean, I—I got married young and I have two kids to raise and I didn’t have, you know, college degree to work or to be—do something. You know, I just stayed home and took care of the kids. Hassan: And that was like, uh, that was kind of like the typical role? Haddad: Yeah, yeah. Hassan: Was your marriage arranged, if you don’t mind me asking? Haddad: Yes. Hassan: Yeah, and then that was normal at the time, right? Haddad: Most—most marriages until—even until now some of them arranged. Hassan: But you—I’m sure, you know, it’s—it’s actually kind of strange, I find that you— because I have Jordanian relatives too. The arranged marriages are the ones that are actually the more loving. It’s a little strange. Haddad: You know, I’ll be honest with you, uh, when you get married, there is a respect and a devotion to the marriage. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: You know. You married, you have to respect the marriage, you have to devote your life to your—to make your marriage work, you know? And, uh, the divorce [rate], it was one percent maybe, in Jordan. Maybe less than that. That time, when I grow up, you didn’t hear anybody divorced. Even in the Islamic, uh, marriages. You didn’t see a lot of divorce in the old days, but now it’s very common. Hassan: Mhmm, it’s a bit different here. Haddad: It’s big differ—not even—even back home now. Hassan: Oh, really? Haddad: You hear a lot about divorce [now]. Not when I grew up. �17 Hassan: So, um, another question, a little bit on the brighter side, um, so, when you, uh, when you came over to America, what did—did you bring anything with you? Like anything— significant, heirlooms? Stuff like that? Haddad: Uh, I bring like my own spices. Hassan: Okay. Haddad: I bring my own things to use. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: Uh, we use—we famous with the Turkish coffee, I bring these—my cups coffee. (Anthony laughs) This is—very important to have them in your house. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And, I mean, anything you use back home, you try to bring it with you here. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: But now it’s—you find that here, it’s very, very—uh, when I came 40 years ago you didn’t find anything like that here. But now you find it everywhere. Hassan: Are you saying, um, like the spices, the—the coffee sets, all that stuff, you couldn’t—it was harder to find in America when you came, but now, we have, uh— Haddad: Yeah, you have like Arabic stores. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: You find it in like the global stores, you find it—the global store, they have everything from all over the world. Hassan: Yeah, there’s one in Gaithersburg I go to with my dad, I like that one. Haddad: One—the one—which one? Hassan: I—I can’t remember the name but it’s off of, uh, 355 on the left side, right next, uh, not too far from the Weis. I can’t remember its name, but he—he goes there a lot. Uh, do you still have that same coffee set or did you get a new one? Haddad: I have them. Hassan: You still have the same one from Jordan?! Haddad: I have different ones. Hassan: Ahh, okay. Yeah, I’d imagine that over time, they always break with the kids and stuff. (laughs) Um, alright. And is there—there—I’m not—I think I already asked but just to make sure, was there any other reason that, uh, you came to the Maryland D.C. area other than, uh, family here? �18 Haddad: Because I have family here, you know, I—I came here, and I stayed here. Hassan: Okay, and let’s see— [Anthony brushes through his notes] Haddad: How’s it so far? Hassan: Uh, it’s—it’s going well, I like it. Still have a good amount of time left. Um, let’s see if we can think of, uh, any more stories, um, growing up in Jordan and stuff like that. So, after, um, high school you got married, you were raising your kids, uh, did you still live in the same city the entire time, in As-Salt? Haddad: No, I moved when I get married, I moved to Amman. Hassan: Oh. So, you moved to the capital? Haddad: Yeah. Hassan: Was there any big difference between the two? Haddad: It’s the capital, it’s big—you know, Amman built in seven mountains. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And they used to call each mountain by name, yeah. Hassan: What—what do you mean by that? Haddad: The city of Amman built in seven mountains. Hassan: Okay. Haddad: Like, they say jabal Amman, jabal al-Hussain, jabal al-ashrafee, jabal al—Jabal is mountains [in Arabic], that’s what jabal is. Uh, Jabal al-ashrafee, jabal al-naudeef, jabel alwkhdat. Hassan: Ah, so they’re all named? Haddad: All named by the, uh, mountains, but the whole—the whole [set of] mountains, it’s [in] Amman city. Hassan: Sounds like a really big place, it’s got seven mountains. Haddad: Yeah. They have like maybe six million live in Amman city alone. Hassan: Jeez. Umm, did you think that would be a better to place to live than—than your hometown, or do you feel like, uh—like which did you like better? Haddad: Don’t take me wrong, I love Jordan, but I like it here, because maybe if I stayed in Jordan, I’d live a good life there because I used to have my brothers and sisters and my, uh, my mom, but now, uh, my five brothers, I lost three brothers and two sisters and my mother that pass away. I mean, but I’m happy now here because my kids are successful, they have a good life, I �19 have a good life, I have good friends here. I—I mean, if you tell me to choose where you want to live now? I live in—I stay in the United States. Hassan: I mean, that makes sense, this is where your life is now. Haddad: Yeah, I lived more years here, than I lived back home. Hassan: But you still do visit Jordan? Haddad: Yeah, I every—I go—I have half-sister, she is older than me. I go every two years, sometimes, to visit her. Hassan: Oh, a half-sister? Haddad: Yeah. Hassan: Could you tell me about that? Like— Haddad: She’s 87 years old. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: Now she’s, uh going—her memory—she’s losing her memory and they put her back home in nursing home a couple months ago because she doesn’t have kids to take care of her. And my nephews, back there, they put her in nursing home because she couldn’t take care of herself anymore. And I was planning to go visit her this—the end of this month but because of the corona, uh, my nephews told me not to come for now. Maybe—hopefully, uh, when things wind down, and I hope this virus goes away and makes people—because everybody freaking out about it. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: You know? Maybe in the summertime or the end of the summer I’ll go be with her and see how she’s doing. Hassan: I hope she’s doing well. Haddad: I called her and, you know, I call where she’s in, and the nurse said—once in a while, I’ll talk to her, but now she starts forgetting everybody. Hassan: Yeah, that’s just the thing. Haddad: She’s going through, uh, you know, Alzheimer’s and she’s losing her memory. Hassan: Mhmm. Um, I also wanted to (laughs) ask—sorry. Um, when—when you came, you know, you brought your spices and you brought a lot of stuff for cooking, you know you worked at a bakery, was cooking and, uh, and stuff like that like—was that a big, um, influence for your household? Does that make—does that question make sense? It just seems— Haddad: I’m a baker, not—not a chef, there’s a difference between—baker you bake bread, you do cakes, you do all the sweet stuff. You know, that’s why I’m fat! �20 (Both laugh) Haddad: That’s a good one! (Both laugh) Haddad: From all the sweets, even if you smell it you get fat! (Both laugh) Hassan: Um, okay, uh, sheesh, I’m running out of questions (laughs). Haddad: Do you want to take a break, get you something to drink, to eat? Hassan: We’ll take a quick break. Haddad: Okay. Would you like some fruits? Hassan: Uh? Haddad: I have orange— [Recording pauses.] [A ten-minute break goes by with the recording paused. In Arabic culture it is considered very rude to not accept snacks or beverages from your host.] [Recording resumes.] Hassan: Uh, I also wanted to ask, just real quick, about, um, a few other events that were going on in Jordan, while you were there. Um, like Black September and the Disaster of 1967? Haddad: Okay, before ‘67, my husband was a teacher. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: We lived in Bethlehem on the West Bank [of] Palestine for a year and a half before the ‘67 war. When we find out there was going to be a war we moved back to Amman. Hassan: Mhmm, okay. Haddad: Okay. And, uh, the ‘67 war Israel took over the West Bank from Jordan. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And, you know, Palestine—the Jordan river between Palestine and Jordan. And they took over the whole land, they occupied the West Bank. And that’s—that’s the Six Days War between Jordan and between Israel. Hassan: And that was— Haddad: When they took over. Hassan: Mhmm. And that was resolved quickly I suppose? But that caused you to move. �21 Haddad: We moved before, when we heard there’s going to be a war, we moved before, like 2 weeks, 3 weeks before, before the war start. Hassan: So, um, you’re living in As-Salt, you got married and you went to the West—East Bank Bethlehem? Haddad: No. I went to, uh, Amman, after that, after I have my child, uh— Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: In two months, I had my baby in Jordan. A baby girl. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: I move—I move with my husband to Bethlehem because he was a teacher. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: And we stayed there for, uh, from ‘66 to, uh, maybe May ’67. And when we find out it is going be a war, we moved back to Amman. Hassan: And then that was the—that was pretty much the end of the—uh, as far as that event goes? [inaudible] Haddad: Yeah, yeah. And we moved back and after that the war start in ’60. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: You know in June—in June. Hassan: Yeah, ok, and, um, is there anything else, um, sort of your experience maybe in your adulthood, um, living in Jordan? Before you came to the United States. Like what was happening before you came to—to the United States? Haddad: Uh, I lost my husband when I was 21 years old. And my son, he was, 3 months old, my daughter, 6 years—uh, 3 years old and uh, that’s in 1969. And after 6 years in 1975, I came to the United States with my kids. Hassan: Um, did—would you mind if I asked how he passed? Haddad: He had leukemia. Hassan: Oh. Haddad: He was very sick. He had leukemia. He was 27 years old. Hassan: Wow. That is really, really young. I’m sure that was really hard. Haddad: It’s very hard. Hassan: And you had to take care of the family for the um— �22 Haddad: I took care of my kids. I lived with my in-laws and, uh, my sister-in-law, she was a teacher, she never married. She helped me out to raise my gran—my kids. And uh, after that I moved here, I came to the United States in 1975. Hassan: Ok. So that was kind of the like the whole list of events and stories up to the point of coming to the United States. And, um you know, you said, when you first came to the United States, it was—it was pleasant, you know? It was welcoming? [inaudible] Haddad: It, uh, uh, pleasant, but at the same time it was hard to, you know, to adjust to the new area, to the new, uh, you know, people. Uh, every—even if you move from house to house, it take you awhile to adjust. Hassan: Oh yeah. Haddad: And it will be hard, you know, to adjust. Everybody you know who moves from placeto-place, it’s going to take him awhile to adjust the, you know, kind of living, you know. But people here were differently—was, uh, respectful. Uh, I didn’t have any problems. I mean living here. Hassan: But—but you did feel that you did adjust, right? Haddad: I did adjust after maybe a year, I start adjust. And I learned how to drive. And I started, you know, to drive. You know. Hassan: You know it’s interesting that you bring that up. Did they have a lot of cars in Jordan before you left? Haddad: (sighs) Yes! Hassan: They did? Hassan: Yeah. Yes! Haddad: What—was it like here where pretty much everyone has a car? Or was it more of— Haddad: No, not everybody had a car. I mean maybe the people who live in the city and they are well-off or educated, they have cars. But the majority of Jordanian people they don’t have cars. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: But now, now, these days, everybody has cars. Hassan: Oh yeah, everyone. Haddad: Yeah, it’s different. Hassan: It’s different, yeah. Haddad: After, I mean, uh, everything different! Even—you know? �23 Hassan: Mhmm. And were there people, like how—do—do you know? Like could your husband drive in Jordan or did you not? Haddad: No, he never drove. Hassan: There was just no need? Haddad: Uh, no, because the transportation there, is very cheap. It’s very easy to take the bus or take taxi, you know, to go anywhere you want. And it’s cheap. Hassan: That’s, uh, the primary method of transportation? Just taking the bus and stuff? Haddad: Yes, yes. The bus and the taxi. Hassan: Did they have trains? Haddad: One, uh, train. (Both laugh) Hassan: Have you ever ridden on the train there? Haddad: No. Hassan: No? Okay. Um, excuse me. Now when you go back, comparing it, uh—like when you visit, comparing it to now to then, how—how are things with the transportation? Haddad: Now it’s—everything—the transportation? Hassan: Yeah, for the transportation. Haddad: There, it is the same. You can, uh, take taxi. If you are a visitor, you don’t have car, but most people now they have cars. Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: I mean all young people, they drive, you know? Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: It’s different. You go there, they are more advanced with everything. Hassan: Right. Haddad: You know? Hassan: And, uh, would you say—lets now be a little more general, um, how would you compare it now to then? Like when you left to—when the last time you visited, in Jordan. Haddad: It’s completely different. Hassan: In what ways? Haddad: In the technology taking over. �24 Hassan: Mhmm. Haddad: You know, in Jordan. I mean you go to the hotel; they have everything you need for your—to—for your needs, you know. Hassan: Okay. Yeah, there must be a big jump between the two. But it is still recognizable right? Haddad: Jordan? Hassan: Yeah. Haddad: I know the—the old areas but the new areas, if I go there, I don’t know the new areas. I get lost. Hassan: Oh, it’s completely different? Haddad: Completely different. Hassan: Wow. Um, so I think we’re getting close to our wrap-up time, is there anything else you’d like to tell me? Haddad: I just want to say, thank you to—and wish you luck. And, uh, I’m happy I live in the United States, even I’m proud to be came from Jordan. And I just want to say God Bless America. Hassan: Alright, thank you again, Faizah. Haddad: You’re welcome. Hassan: Alright. Let me stop the recording. � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/06b07829f75aa629ad120d12293982ed.mp3?Expires=1785369600&Signature=uNE3YTWwUAxl0-GmIzvqArcLvf3cbKqHqvByQxfAfSOCtfecFA27aGptZXyrC-c7UPD9Ya25zAkB%7EB-kmpOAbfF0uZDO8lCpXQk25Ey3cfw17xzXR7sgjo8UG74IGArgo%7EW5WgxPAF2zgtMq-S%7EHaKkCzqrpBpCnSG1wOEwGoDrCk9isVbx5wtPepmZAm5Xg96K-ePdJW15tYQ1vXxI77-83NZn%7EcfeGTIjpEkVYms2yhQ7oe3qgvTDI-digCNFvj%7E4bW1U0ho-rMsH2R52XQDbcoVysUIwNsG3ipEZi1OrhuCVnqC%7ENpwhjxE2RIQX75DrzTBAHjd53hHAaVRBpiw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 21355a16d823959dae86f83d3bfe0953 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2020 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Anthony Hassan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Faizah Haddad Location The location of the interview Damascus, Maryland, USA Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data DOCX, MP3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Faizah Haddad Description An account of the resource This interview between Anthony Hassan and Faizah Haddad follows the life of Faizah as she grew up as a Catholic girl in apredominantly Islamic nation of Jordan and her immigration to the United States. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2020). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony Hassan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 9, 2020 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, MP3, PNG Language A language of the resource English and Arabic Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Catholic civil war Jordan Middle East Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2018 Interviews Description An account of the resource These interviews were conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park courses THET489V (Spring 2018) and HIST428M (Spring 2018). THET489V was led by Professor Esther Lee of the School of Theatre, Dance, and Performance Studies, HIST428M was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities. Both courses were sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Anthony Lam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sam Lam (pseudonym) Location The location of the interview Maryland, USA Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Sam Lam Description An account of the resource This interview between Anthony Lam and Sam Lam explores Sam's experiences as an immigrant to the United States from Vietnam. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course THET428V (Spring 2018). This course was led by Professor Esther Lee of the Theater Department, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony Lam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 3, 2018 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu). Language A language of the resource English communism employment family Freedom Language Barrier Philippines refugee siblings Thailand Vietnam https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/75a8a29df90355802aefe4a4880a4509.jpg?Expires=1785369600&Signature=eLKpRHliZ8wYizcsizwgRZ29r1GINgajjnODCY0KpYMiIdx7U88W4MRQBihdyrE2I9TA%7EfaxKM9ODfklAFp4qvJq0R2nQEdCvqX4NOikSWCIBBOyy4Ospcd%7EjDb0K44CIhzWyVuo4i%7EPqtM9505V8xRjjaXOMe0oB3KmI2mhf%7EwR2nUSL13Jg3OcC4EbA%7ERVdeEPUfqzNeW40G1iudONsmYVx4ml%7EIWeVRRKNteYIfjrmXzft286GXG3-RqGhgIomgcmQJrLsaRcrZejFSyqGC%7Ew-dtlQztcXR9yh6tzcA0OqVEfTnetCExiT2p6R7hyZnWYG8fwrDmBGkaVqWp9Ag__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 4939aef8ae70ac2cb391d00a7504edf1 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/2c8f7a1f63f585f3e494e1ce271c811c.pdf?Expires=1785369600&Signature=XMU7DYUM-bEGxIQgPU6lpA9zpLKE7ZGEbOQU96PGcMIEf1iFI3zLAY2r2n8k%7EhZnGl5ekWLQmsr8fJzw8bRVEf1fNxooIzORhT0Q22uho7IbGo4jf%7E3YubkYXRdbZWM5JKNd1qpTVNa1E68xUfjA-1nSn%7EzCrr-dJk1YcoejxDGsDB5Gh3MIjNwccxINddmFFDO-T138MgOA2WTWMWr%7EG05plt28Wd1yxiO0IDjzQxitR6ANUV5URyw0a0olEzaSsICmjb1Gij-WwbUxMI5B765kAQ6LAFEFD4iguHOPKk8CvsEeGk%7EZQAFGGFkyKP9MQDs6EXnBTL0wNoiwc9ypfQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 80cf06db14b059ba23dfbb84ca1d862b PDF Text Text 1 Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course Hist 428M - Spring 2021 Instructor: Dr. Anne S. Rush Interviewer’s name: Antonio J. Palas Interviewee’s name: Antonia A. Sfiriou Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Greece Interviewee’s Current Residence: Baltimore City, Maryland, U.S.A. Date of Interview: February 28, 2021 Place of Interview: Baltimore City, Maryland, U.S.A. Introduction: This interview between Antonio Palas and Antonia Sfiriou is a comprehensive look at the experiences of Antonia as a female immigrant to the United States from Greece. Born on a small Aegean island, Antonia was brought to the United States by her parents when she was very young. She details her story of leaving Greece and settling in a Greek neighborhood in Baltimore, her struggles to learn English, her ambitions to enter the healthcare profession, and the obstacles that she faced to attain her dream. Antonia’s interview shines light on the attitudes and beliefs of Greek culture on women. She recounts how her story fit and broke the mold on women assembled by Greek culture. Keywords: Greece, Rhodes, Halki, Pondamos, respect, perspective, Baltimore, Catholic, women [Snoring may be heard throughout the interview; Interviewee’s father is an oncology patient which she did not want to be too far away from.] Palas: I am Antonio Palas, interviewing Antonia Sfiriou in her home in Baltimore, Maryland. So, let’s begin. Uh where were you born? Sfiriou: I was born in the island of Rhodes which is about an hour away from the island of Halki, which I am originally from. Palas: Uh, what were your memories of Greece before leaving? Sfiriou: My memory of Greece um, (pause) uh, I was young. And I remember going to the, our house was located like, five minutes away from the beach of Pondamos [Popular beach on the island of Halki]. I remember when I was younger, my dad would take me fishing on the fishing boat, uh. Going to the, we have olive trees too, I remember that. Going with my grandparents, my mom’s mother and father, going to the olive groves. I remember multiple things. I remember really good happiness and going down, seeing my aunts, my uncles. Walking with my dad and �2 my mom. We had goats. We had lambs. There was different areas on the island of Halki that we were going through, those were fantastic memories. Palas: How old were you when you left Greece? Sfiriou: I was about six or seven years old. Uh, didn’t know a word of English. I remember my dad and my mom getting us ready. And I just thought of, okay, it’s an adventure. It’s a vacation or, you know, you’re six or seven years old. You really don’t know. I didn’t know what to expect. Palas: What was it like leaving your home at such a young age? Sfirou: Um, I felt like it was an adventure. It was a journey. I was with my parents. Um, I really didn’t know much until we came here. And that’s when it really hit me. Palas: Do you remember any of the process of leaving Greece? Was it difficult in any way? Sfiriou: I remember from what my mother and my father was telling me, it’s not like it used to be. It’s not like it used to be now. Before you would have to wait. My uncle, my mom’s brother, was here. My uncle, my mom’s mother’s brother, was here too. So, you had to actually put in an application. I remember that process from what my mom and my dad were talking, but it was a process that you had to wait for approval. And then after you get approval, then you would come here. It’s not like it is nowadays where you would come here get a work visa. My parents didn’t have that. My parents had to wait for approval before coming to this country. They wouldn’t approve them without um, immigration, coming into the United States. Nowadays, I see multiple things happening. I see people coming in, under student visas and staying here. I see people that come here and work, which I’m not discriminating. It’s just a different process now. Now you have more things that are available to immigrants, where my parents did not have any of those things. I remember, we, you know, my parents were working hard. My mom worked as a seamstress in a factory. My dad was a painter. It was just, it’s not the same as it was back then. Palas: What can you recall that you were thinking, or what was going through your mind on the trip to America? Sfiriou: I really didn’t have much I, just like I said before, I just I was with my parents. I felt secure. Um, it was unknown. I didn’t know what to expect when I came here. I didn’t know anything about America. I didn’t know anything about that. So, it’s an unexpected journey. Palas: Did you have any hopes or expectations of what you wanted America to be? Sfiriou: Not at that age. Although when I went to school, that’s a different story. I don’t know if you want me to elaborate on that. Palas: We’ll get into that later. Um, what can you remember from what it was like when you arrived in America? Sfiriou: Pure craziness. I remember arriving at J.F.K. [International Airport]. My mom holding me tight, and I was holding her tight. My uncles came to pick us up. My dad was there, I had my little sister with me. It was just, J.F.K. was just madness. It was just crazy. I’ve never seen so �3 many people compared to where our island is nice and peaceful, everybody knew everybody, then I came here, and I didn’t know anybody. And it was just like a lot of people, a lot of commotion. It was scary, at the same time, but I felt secure because my parents were, you know, I was holding on to my parents. Palas: And do you know what the reasons were that you, your family moved to America? Was it political reasons in Greece? Was it economic reasons? Sfiriou: No, I think it was just because my mom’s brother was here, my uncle was here, and my parents wanted a better life for us. And I have to say, I love it. I’m glad that we came here. It was very, very, very challenging for my parents, and for myself, coming here, um but we came for a better life, you know, just like everybody else, they come for a better life. Greece, Greece’s way of life is different. They are enjoying life where, I’m not saying that we don’t enjoy it here in the United States. But now that I’m a U.S. citizen, which I chose to be, because that’s what I’m proud to be. I have so many opportunities here than I would have gotten in Greece. Uh, my way of life here is different than it would have been there. So, I’m actually happy that my parents made that decision, even though it was hard, and it was challenging. It gave us, it gave me a new perspective on life. Something that a young woman in Greece wouldn’t be able to do. Now they can, but it’s still not as it is here. The equal opportunity, the choice of what college I want to go to, the choice of going to college, the choice of working in a great career, you know, you don’t get those opportunities. The government dictates to you in Greece, according to what you sit on exams [on your exam results], on what your profession is going to be. I shouldn’t have to have them choose what I want to do. I want to do what my passion is, what my choice is. Palas: Do you know why your family chose to settle down in Baltimore? Sfiriou: Yeah, yeah, so from what my mom and my dad have told me in the past, we arrived in New Jersey, and we stayed there for a few weeks. But my mom’s brother was there. And they just, my parents decided to come to Baltimore because there was more of a Greek knit, it was a tight Greek family here in Highlandtown. Now, not so. But before it was, everybody knew everybody; it was more of a Greek community. So, I’m actually glad that they settled in Baltimore. My dad, at that point, found a job working as a painter. My mom found a job as a seamstress. Then my grandparents came from Greece, again, with the same process that we had to wait, you know, it’s not an easy process, you have to wait about a year or so. Even more sometimes. It’s not like it is now. I mean, I can’t emphasize how challenging it was for us. We didn’t have resources like they do now. Palas: Was the American way of life at the time different from that in Greece? Sfiriou: Yes. Yes. It’s still different now. It’s still different. I’m not saying that we don’t enjoy our life here too, but the whole way of work ethic there is different than here. There’s, I feel even me visiting in Greece, there’s no respect for women, especially in higher career paths, which shouldn’t be that way at all. You know, it should be that everybody should be treated equal and respect each other. But they don’t have it there. They don’t have that work ethic. I mean, they have a strong work ethic, like they work really hard. And it’s not everybody. It’s just, it’s a �4 different dynamic. I can’t explain it unless, unless you live it. I am more Americanized than Greek. My sister, on the other hand, is more Greek than Americanized. Palas: So, after you came to Baltimore, you settled down, moved in. What was your childhood like? What, what memories do you have of living here in Baltimore as a kid? Sfiriou: Oh, fantastic memories, fantastic. Um, I wish those memories could come back. (begins to get choked up) It was great. My parents didn’t spare us, they worked very hard for what we had. And they actually gave us an opportunity to progress in this life. To make it better for us, and I think they did. For me, I have to say, I’m very grateful. They gave up so much for us, so much. My mom working hard, nonstop in the factory. Those conditions in the factory are so different than they are now. Um, my dad working nonstop. So, but they never said no to us on anything. We never went without food, we never went out, you know, without clothes. They gave up what they needed for us, for my sister and I. And it was very hard. I mean, those fantastic memories. But it was hard in that school, it was very hard. I remember my mom having to pay tutors because it was so hard transitioning. When I came and they put me in first grade, I actually had to stay back a year, because I couldn’t understand. They didn’t take the time. I think the public-school system didn’t have translators. They did not have all that stuff. I remember going to the doctors where we would have to translate for my parents, where nowadays it’s not like that, you know, there’s laws that are implemented. Now, um, in the past that was it. But I have to say, nothing, we didn’t go without. We did everything, they put us in Greek School. Of course, we had to keep the same Greek traditions which was very hard going full time school in American School and then going to Greek School also. And then Sunday School, and then do all the extracurricular Greek so we wouldn’t be without knowing where we came from. So, to me, I had wonderful young memories, wonderful, because we never went without. They made it fun for us. Palas: Can you recall any specific instances where language was an obstacle for you in school? Sfiriou: Oh multiple! I remember, yeah it was extremely difficult. I mean, in my opinion, they should have had other things put in place in the school district, especially after my parents were paying tax dollars. And they should have implemented a lot of resources. My mom had to pay, work extra, and pay a tutor to help me with school. Um, I mean, I shouldn’t have to be kept back without helping. I mean, I remember being in a public school until third grade, and it was a very, I had to work so hard. I mean, endless times working and studying late until my mom transferred me to Our Lady of Fatima Catholic School. And that’s when I just flourished. I, they took the time, I remember those nuns taking the time, um to teach me, to help me read. Um, there was always extra time within that eight hours of being at school that they took that time, that extra half an hour having that nun help me to understand what each word was. I’ve never um felt so secure than I did in a Catholic school. But the public schools I have to say were, (sigh) were horrible, horrible. They didn’t understand the cultural aspect of it. Yes, they had a lot of Greek kids and, but the Greek kids that were here were already living here. I came from Greece and automatically placed in first grade. Do you know how hard that is? It’s very challenging, very challenging for a young person to read and to not understand and then, it’s hard. And not only that, but some of the teachers did not have that education and the cultural understanding of, you �5 know, how the family dynamic works. Like, yes, I go to American school, but I also have Greek homework that I have to do. And there was times I remember that I sitting for a test and I would write Greek instead of English. So yeah, I have to say, I think the public school system failed me. They could have easily helped me out or having a Greek teacher, because I know there was Greek teachers there. I think, yeah, the public schools failed me, and it failed my family. Palas: How did your parents react to the public school system and their neglect, so to speak? Sfiriou: My mom was upset; she wouldn’t say it in front of me. But I could hear her sometimes crying late because I couldn’t understand a word that they were telling me and then it was very hard. But I remember them conversing with my dad late at night and I could overhear. Not that they were loud, they weren’t arguing or anything, they were just conversing. And that’s when they made a decision that I transferred to Catholic school, even though they couldn’t even afford it. But they went without, for themselves, just so I can get a decent education and my sister. And that’s when I, like I said, I flourished in Catholic school. It was a smaller environment, they were more compassionate, they took the time out to understand. And they, I saw a lot of other kids, there were some Asian kids and some different kids that they took the time for every single one. They understood diversity, they, you know, that’s why in a young age, I understand as an immigrant coming here how important it is to have that other individual understand what you’re trying to explain to them. I think it’s very important for you to understand the different cultural aspects and what different cultures beliefs are, and you have to just go with it. Palas: Did language affect your social life in any way, making friends around the neighborhood or anything like that? Sfiriou: Oh yeah! My parents were, they did not let me socialize because they were so scared. Um, especially in grade school, with anyone who wasn’t Greek, like we had no non-Greek [friends], until I went to Catholic school, and I went into high school. And then my mom started trusting people. And I had really good friends that were Italian. There were a few friends from Spain. So, then it started getting better. But they still had us close, like it was still close knit, we weren’t allowed to do a lot of things. Because they were so, my parents were so scared. Plus, it’s also that Greek cultural, old mentality that the girl should stay home, you don’t do what, you know, there’s no need [for girls to leave the home]. Like, let me give you an example: Halloween. Yeah, we would buy costumes, they would buy us candy, but we weren’t allowed to go trick or treating. So, (laughs) I couldn’t understand the fact that I could get a costume and go to school dressed up, but then I can’t go trick or treating. And seeing all my friends go trick or treating (laughs). My parents would think that they would poison us. Like, that’s how scared they were. So, um yeah, I remember sneaking out one year (laughs), and my sister and I, when everybody else was leaving, trick or treating in our neighborhood. And finally, I remember this old lady next door she goes, we don’t have any more candy, but here, here’s some frozen steaks. (laughs) I’ll never forget it. And some pennies rolled up. I’m like, what are we gonna do with this, we can’t go home now with this. (both laughing) So we had to throw it out. So, it’s just some of the things that you do. It’s just funny. Yeah, so they would buy us, I’m telling you, we didn’t go without. We would get a whole bunch of candy that my mom and dad would buy, and �6 Halloween costumes. But what’s the point of getting dressed up if you can’t go trick or treating to experience that? Palas: So overall, would you say that your parents being really old-fashioned Greek was an impediment on your social growth? Sfiriou: No, I embraced it. But I also um, I also taught them to have an open mind about other people and trust other people. And just because they’re not non-Greek [not Greek], and that’s when they started learning. Palas: How so? Sfiriou: Like my friend Gia, they had to meet her parents and my mom knew some Italian but not a lot. My grandmother did, my grandmother, my mom’s mother who lived with us. But she had to like, you know, she had to feel them out. She had to know where the families were before we could actually go and socialize. But again, it didn’t impede my social life at all. Palas: Did your parents ever learn English fluently? Sfiriou: My dad um opened up a company, a painting company, he did well. And yes, my sister helped him a lot, and so did I. But he understood, and he could communicate with other people. He had a lot of government jobs [Government painting contracts]. And you know he really did, he had a successful business. My mom on the other hand um, so my dad had a successful business, and then he became uh an American citizen too. But I think I was the first person who became an American citizen first. (laughs) And then the whole family became an American citizen. My mom did not. Um, I don’t know why she just, she didn’t have to learn a lot of English, she could understand it, believe me. When we would talk English, she would understand it. She just couldn’t say anything. But again, I think she knew more than she let on. And she understood and she could speak broken [English], but not actually go into the doctors and understand exactly what they’re saying. Palas: Did your parents put forth a strong effort to learn? Sfiriou: Yes, they did. So did my dad and so did my mom, it’s just hard. I’m telling you, I don’t think they had the resources to learn. And just like other Greek families here, in my mom’s generation, they had the same thing. They didn’t have the resources. So, what do you want them to learn when they’re late? Like my dad had more resources than my mom. But again, it’s because he learned from my sister and me. I mean even though it was broken English, they still learned. And it’s the same with the Italian communities and the Polish community, especially my dad had a lot of um friends that were from different cultures and they were the same way. So. Palas: What effect did religion have on your upbringing? Sfiriou: Oh, religion is huge part of my upbringing. Um, we went to church and Sunday school every Sunday. We um celebrated all the holidays, all the holy holidays. Huge. My mom was a um huge Christian and so with my dad, but she was very um— Palas: Spiritual? �7 Sfiriou: —very spiritual, very spiritual. My dad not so, my mom, yes, super spiritual. And my sister’s the same way. I am too. I’m just more conservative than, my sister’s more pushy. Where I am more conservative, and I let people decide for their own what they want to do. You know, their choices in life and learn from their mistakes. Palas: So, the church was a big part? Sfiriou: Oh yes. Huge. We went to confession. We did communion we did the 40 days of fasting. We did the christenings, the weddings, everything. It was huge. Um, and it’s not just my immediate family. It was a huge part of our friends and our community, the Greek community. It still is. And I am very religious, and I consider myself very spiritual. I just don’t push it on people. I let them choose. Give them the facts and whatever they believe. It’s their choice. I can’t force them to believe in something they don’t believe in. Palas: Did the church ever play a social aspect of your life? Sfiriou: What do you mean social? Palas: Like um, so today you know how the church you’ve got the basketball teams at the church and stuff and people hang out at the church. What social aspect did the church play in your life? Sfiriou: Oh, yeah, I was part of the like the, I was, my sister was more with the Greek Orthodox G.O.Y.A. [Greek Orthodox Youth Association], the basketball. We did the G.O.Y.A. dancing. Yeah, it was huge. We had a lot, it was our little community, like our little Greek island, in the small community. We had the dances, we had the movie theaters, the church played a huge role in the youth bringing up so they wouldn’t be without. So, the church was a huge resource for the Greek immigrants. Huge. Um, learning, you know, whatever they needed, everybody pulled together. People that were um born here, the community, the church came too. St. Nicholas [Greek Orthodox Church] especially. I remember the priest there, Father George, was a huge advocate of just embracing the youth. He started a lot of the Greek youth, the basketball. So, the kids can have something to do. They had roller skating, they had movie theater, movie nights. Um, they had plays, they had brought actors from Greece, and they would sell tickets. But then it also gave to the people that didn’t have, no matter what their nationality no matter what their culture was. They had like soup kitchens, feeding the poor. So, we were all part of that, you know? So yeah, the church did play a huge role on who I am today. Palas: When your family eventually settled down in America, in Baltimore, did you feel a sense of loneliness, or was there like a community there to welcome you and to help you out? Sfiriou: No, in Baltimore, there was a community, St. Nicholas was a great community. I’m actually happy that we relocated here. Um, personally, I’m thinking of when we went to, I think it was Paramus, New Jersey, to stay with my uncle. There really wasn’t much to do. And there wasn’t a big Greek community there at all. And we stayed there for a few weeks. But thank God, we came to Baltimore, because when I came to Baltimore, like everyone on our street, understood kids that um were immigrants like myself, but there was also kids that were born here. So, I had cousins, also my dad’s side of the family, they were on the same street. So, they �8 embraced a lot of um, help us out. And we would hang out, we would do different things. So yes, they were welcoming, they would teach us certain things, you know, what’s going on in the community, how we should adapt to the American life. So yes, and it was a huge welcoming in Baltimore, especially in Highlandtown, not so much now. But it was before. And to this day, St. Nicholas, the Greek church, uh still does that. We still welcome new families that still immigrate here to the United States. And we have different [people] from different cultural backgrounds too, with intermarriages. We acknowledge each person, and we love them on how they are. Palas: Would you say that you found more of a community in the people from the same island in Greece, or just from in general people from Greece? Sfiriou: In general, in general. There’s different, there’s people from the island of Chios, there’s people from the island of Karpathos, they’re all from different parts. There were people from the Bahamas that immigrated to Baltimore (laughs). Um, people from Cameroon, Africa that immigrated to Baltimore. So no, it’s I think, our community here. Palas: Did, growing up, did the knowledge of being an immigrant ever affect or skew the way you saw your future going? Sfiriou: Um, no. I do understand diversity now, being an immigrant. I can understand people who immigrate here now and understand what they’re going through. But um, I just wish we had the resources that we have. I mean, I wish we had the resources they have now for us. Because they definitely have more benefits. They definitely have health care access, they have people who can assist with individuals who don’t speak the language and come from a different culture and understand, you know? So yeah, it has changed me to understand what people are feeling. When they come here, their fears, their, the feeling of unknown and just making sure they’re at ease and making sure that I can tell them there are resources to help. Palas: Have you lived anywhere else other than Greece and Baltimore? Sfiriou: Um, well I lived in Albany, New York for 10 years. Um, different way of life there, that’s for sure. I went to the Church of St. George, which is also a tight knit community. They’re more Americanized than they are here in Baltimore. Um much more Americanized than how we are here in Baltimore. Much more Americanized than we are here in Baltimore, I think. But the traditions are still there. The people are friendly, you still have all the traditions that we go through in Greece. So, you know, I went to Albany for 10 years. But again, each state, each city has their own unique um stance, meaning their own identities of what they, I mean, we have three different churches here in Baltimore, and the three different ones have different identities you can tell. Most kids yeah, you go to Greek school, but you really don’t speak Greek. You speak like American Greek. I can’t explain it. It’s not Greek Greek. Sfiriou: It’s like broken Greek. Palas: Um hum, would you rather have grown up in an area that was more Americanized? Or are you happy that you grew up in an area that’s more rooted in Greek culture? Sfiriou: Oh no! No, I’m definitely happy that I’m here in Baltimore, and I was raised in Baltimore, definitely for sure. �9 Palas: Why? Sfiriou: Because I don’t think I would have had that experience anywhere else other than Baltimore. They’re more, I’m more Americanized, I mean, more Greek here in Baltimore and learn different um traditions. Where in Albany, they don’t do some of that stuff. Or in some of the churches here in Baltimore don’t have those Greek roots. Um, from the dancing, from the way, you can tell if people are from, I don’t want to say any other, but you can tell if they’re, yes, they go to a Greek church, they’re a part of the Greek community. But you can tell when they speak Greek, where they come from (laughs) because it’s not Greek Greek. I can’t explain it unless without, you know, disrespecting someone else, and I don’t want to do that. Palas: (laughs) Growing up, and throughout your life, what jobs have you held? Sfiriou: Mostly healthcare, everything has been healthcare. Um, and I don’t know why it drove me there. I think maybe because when I was going to Greece, during the summers, I remembered the healthcare access is so limited there, like there is no healthcare like we have here in the United States. And my grandmother was sick when I was younger, and I always, I don’t know, for years I wanted to become a nurse. Now I’ve finished my Master’s in Public Health. I’m more emphasizing on patient safety, and how we can um prevent any harm. Especially for people that come from different cultures and different um diverse backgrounds. Because you should give them all their options and let them decide. But also, on the medical part, you have to make sure that they understand what you’re saying. So, we have to follow the rules and um policies that have been implemented for different healthcare organizations and laws. So. Palas: What was your first job? Sfiriou: My first job, um my very first job? Palas: Yes. Sfiriou: At 16 I was working at McDonalds. Um, and then I quickly found a medical receptionist job. And then immediately after that I went into school, I went into the X-ray uh, technology program. And then from that, I was offered a medical reception, and then after that went to medical assistant school. And ever since then it was just like that until I went to New York and finished my associates in nursing. And then I went, got divorced, came back, finished my bachelors and my masters. And I took care of both of my parents while working. And also did management too in a behavioral practice with autistic kids. Palas: Were you fluent enough in the language by the time you got your first job? Sfiriou: Oh yeah, I became an Americ—because when you are an immigrant, you have a Green Card. I’ll just explain the process back then. You would have to go into this downtown Baltimore, um I remember I was 18, downtown Baltimore down at this courthouse with a whole bunch of like, you would think it was like different people from all different backgrounds. Um and you would sit there in line like you were waiting at a deli. And I just sat in my chair waiting for my number to be called. And thinking, oh, this is not happening right now. I can’t do this. So, I, while I had my ticket (laughs) in my hand, I found this sign, there was always a person there, they said if you wanted to apply to become a U.S. citizen, I said, oh yes! So, while I was waiting �10 with my sticker, I went to the little table there. And I said, nope, I want to apply right now. I can’t do this anymore. Because you had to go every like, I don’t know how many years, to renew it [Green Card]. No, that wasn’t happening with me. So, I was actually the first out of my whole family to become a U.S citizen. So, I took it upon myself, and I went, I sat, that process of becoming an American citizen was very challenging, but it felt like so good to know that I had that opportunity to be an American citizen. Palas: Was the rest of your family as excited for citizenship as you were? Sfiriou: Yeah, my dad was, he got his afterwards. A few years after. And my mom at that point, became very ill, so, she couldn’t even like sit for the test because she had multiple strokes. But um she had her Green Card, and we renewed everything. But my dad was so excited. I remember my brother-in-law was helping him with the test, and he was so proud when he became an American citizen, he was holding his flag, he still has that flag. He’s just so proud to be an American citizen. I mean, it’s a huge accomplishment. It’s a huge honor that you can apply for it. Palas: And what about your sister, was she as excited or was it more of something that, you know, you just kind of did? Sfirou: My sister on the other hand (laughs) was more like my mom’s mentality. I don’t want to become. I said, well, you have no choice. Your whole family’s American so I suggest you go sit for your test, because you’re gonna have issues. So, then after she, you know, just smooth it over and I gave her all the options. And she’s like, yeah, I’m gonna go for it. So, she finally went for it. But yeah, she was happy when she became an American citizen. But again, she’s really Greek at heart. You know what I mean? But me on the other hand, I’m more Americanized than Greek. Like, I am proud to be an American, like when I go to Greece, um I have dual citizenship, but I am definitely happy to come back to the United States (laughing). Palas: So, would you consider yourself American, or Greek, or Greek American? Sfiriou: American Greek. Palas: American Greek, so American more than Greek? Sfiriou: Oh yeah. The United States gave me so many opportunities that I would’ve never had in Greece. So many opportunities and choices that I made that I would’ve never had the opportunity in Greece. Palas: So, your sister having the opposite mentality, do you think that that strained your relationship at all growing up? Sfiriou: Not strained, well I mean, like, siblings are siblings, but yeah, we have different perspectives. And I think kids see that. Um, definitely different perspectives with the way of life in Greece versus here. You could tell, even my family in Greece could tell, your sister’s totally Americanized. Or like when I go one vacation, I just want everybody to leave me alone because I’m going on vacation. I’m going to sit there and read a book. I work very hard to enjoy my life when I go to Greece, right? But there their mentality is so different. And I can’t explain it, unless your actually lived in the United States and lived in Greece. And people that lived in the United �11 States and relocated to Greece understand what I’m telling them, like they get it. My sister on the other hand, enjoys the way of life there. Me, I fear the life down there. (laughs) She enjoys it where I fear like, I just want to go on vacation and leave and come home. Do what I have to do. \ It’s just different from their banking to their banking hours, to them, let me give you an example, like I go to the bank to do something or pay taxes down there or whatever, and you actually have to wait in line. And when they are drinking their coffee, and they’re closed at two o’clock, that’s it, you have to come back the next day and wait in line again! So, you have to keep doing that. And make sure you’re the first in line to get done. Where here, you don’t do that. There’s respect about other person’s time. Palas: It’s a more relaxed and leisurely like— Sfiriou: Laxed! A lot leisurely! And that’s just all of Europe. It’s not just Greece, it’s Europe. Italy is like that. Spain’s like that. I mean, I have friends that are from Spain, and I have people, I have really good friends there from the Island of Dominica and Dominican Republic. So yes, I think different countries are different than the U.S. [Background noise of an air conditioning unit stops, and the room much quieter from this point until the end of the interview.] Palas: Um hum. So, growing up, did you feel you had a responsibility to hold on and continue the Greek culture at all? Sfiriou: Yes, absolutely. Um, it’s always a responsibility when you’re a Greek to uphold the Greek traditions and the culture and where you came from and continue uh your parent’s legacy and your ancestry. I mean, that’s just part of you. That’s part of your culture. And I wouldn’t have it, I mean, I’m proud to be Greek. Don’t get me wrong, I’m very proud to be Greek. It’s just, I don’t believe in certain Greek ways. I believe there’s different ways of doing things. And it’s not just the being narrowminded, and you just have to be objective, you know? I just feel like you have to be objective, you can’t just put um horse blinders, you know, you have to look at all aspects and what opportunities are available. Um, like, let me give you an example: I go to Greece, I do different things. But they’re like, oh, well, that’s not the way we do it here. Well, okay, just the way you do it here doesn’t mean that its always the right way. There’s different ways of doing things that um can be better. But sometimes the Greek mentality is, oh, Greece is better, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, well, if Greece was better, you guys wouldn’t be so behind. Um, you would have health care access for everybody, you would be able to um, have health care and hospitals and clinics on the island of Halki, and decent healthcare on the island of Rhodes. But because it’s a universal insurance, and because it’s a government-based um insurance, they just don’t give the good quality of care that the hospitals and the nurses here have, like being a nurse in Greece is not a good profession. They think all nurses do is clean people, and that’s it. Whereas they don’t realize that the nurse has a bigger position and a bigger role here in the United States where they’re the eyes and ears of the doctor. They are the front-line people before the doctors. They just look at you and they think it’s a disrespectful profession. They feel like a woman should have a job that’s for a woman or just stay home, be married, and have kids or they don’t realize that certain women don’t want that certain. I mean, not saying that it’s not possible. It’s just to certain people and see in different people’s lives. Um you have to go through different �12 things. I’m divorced, so they think divorce is so bad, but yet you look at other people and I have a good career. I have my own house. I took care of my parents, you know, I don’t really need that. Do you understand what I mean? Palas: Um hum, um hum. Sfiriou: They think a woman who is educated, um in other words, the men are very intimidated by a woman who is educated. But people, like I’ve met doctors down there that were educated here in the United States and they understand and are respectful of that. Where the doctors down there are not (laughs). Certain doctors they have that mentality and the way they talk to you is different too. But my sister learned firsthand when she went on vacation and she went to a hospital down there where they don’t take care of patients like they do here. Like the nurses they also have like 30 patients to one nurse. And you have to buy your own gauze, you have to buy your own medication before you get into the hospital. I mean, there’s just a lot of shady things, I think. Especially on the small islands I feel like there needs to be more um access. And I think they’re going for that. And it depends on the person who is like the mayor of the island, they have to put their community first and make sure that they have everything that’s possible. Palas: Would you say that, that sense of duty to carry on the Greek culture and traditions, was something that was more self-inflicted? Or something that your parents really pushed? Sfiriou: Oh no, it’s definitely my parents pushed. Um, but I’m glad that they did. Because when I went to New York, I sort of laxed, like I let some of the great traditions fade away. And I started feeling myself, because I wasn’t speaking Greek fluently, I was starting to lose that. So, I definitely, I didn’t like it. But I’m happy that my parents pushed me. Even when I came back and relocated, I’m happy, because I started feeling like I’m losing all the culture, all that close-knit communities. Um, (pauses) so I’m actually glad that my mom and my dad pushed me um more, and my sister, because she can become very overwhelming and pushy, um pushing me back to my Greek roots. Palas: Knowing that you come from a culture that’s very traditional, and uh especially when it comes to women and their role, has that affected, especially growing up and knowing that you come from this culture, has that affected where you wanted to go into the future? Sfiriou: Yeah, it was very conflicting. Um, because when you’re young, all you’re taught is, okay, yes, you’re going to have a good job. But you really need to get married, you really need to have children, you need to be at home, be a housewife. And me deep down, I really didn’t want any of that. Like, but, I was still going through the motions. So, and they were really pushing about you getting married before 30, pushing, pushing, pushing. Me, I wanted to be educated, I always wanted to learn, I always wanted to be my own. My sister got married before. And then, of course, in the Greek culture, the, the eldest first gets married, whereas my sister got married first, and then she had kids. Palas: She’s younger than you? Sfiriou: She’s younger than me. She’s three years younger. But I was happy for that. I didn’t have a problem with that. It’s just that um, I wanted different things. She wanted to do the whole �13 Greek thing. Me, on the other hand, I just wanted to go to college and just be career driven and not need anybody. I wanted to stand on my own two feet and not worry about depending on a man. That, I have to say my dad, like yes, my mom was pushing, and I could hear them arguing sometimes, why are you telling her? Well, I’m letting my daughter not depend on a man, that’s good. And so, my dad kind of taught me and gave me strength to like do what I wanted to do. Of course, he was scared to say it in front of my mom. (laughs) Um, but like he would teach me you don’t need to have a man. You need to be your own and not have to depend. Like and I’m so glad that I listened to him because me getting married, and I’ve been in a bad relationship, and I was really contemplating for 10 years, I was, 10 years we were dating, and then 10 years I was married, and I was miserable, miserable. I was away from my family; I missed my family. I’m very close knit to my family, my sister, the kids. So, it was very hard for me, very, very, very hard for me. Because he was more Americanized, but he was Greek also. But he wasn’t, he was just um (pause) he had issues, like psychological issues. Um, so that gave me the opportunity, thank God, that I finished school, graduated, because he wasn’t happy with that either, when I went to college, when I got accepted at um Maria College for Nursing. Even though he said he was proud of me, he really wasn’t. He was just feeling um very intimidated, I could tell. That I was educated, and I really did not need him. Um so that, to me, that shows how um a man in the Greek culture, not all men, again not all men, but some men in the Greek culture are very intimidated. Instead of being happy and proud of having a wife who’s educated and has a great career, uh they’re intimidated by their success. And in Greece it’s like that too. So, in that aspect, I’m not happy when I go to Greece um when I see that, because they look at me in a different, I could tell the way when they talk to me, not all the modern, the educated people, but the uneducated people. And you could tell the narrowmindedness, oh, oh your divorced? Oh, you’re by yourself? Oh! I said, you don’t need to feel pity for me. You do not feel sorry for me. I have more than what you guys have done in your whole lives. So, I think they’re kind of narrowminded because I don’t have children. But I have my niece and I have my nephews, and to me, that’s all I need. Palas: If you could go back and have stopped your family from coming to America, would you? Sfiriou: Heck no! My sister yes, me no. Um, I love the fact that they had guts to come to a different country, start all over, because we were well off in Greece, start all over from scratch, from nothing, and to establish and create something precious, that’s what you come to the United States for, it’s to build something better. And I, believe it or not, my parents were very proud, very proud that I accomplished everything. (gets emotional) And it’s deep down I’m very proud that I accomplished everything because not everybody does it. But now I’m so happy that I came to the United States because I can tell you, when I’m in Greece, I think I would’ve not been around. I would have been stuck in those narrowmindedness um disrespectful attitudes that they have and wouldn’t have an open mind of other different cultures or diversity, or respect that everybody deserves and everybody um needs to have time to prove and have those opportunities in life. I’ve seen people that finish with all these degrees, like a friend of mine finished psychology, and she works so hard, and never gets acknowledged for the hard work that she does. So no, I am definitely happy that I’m here in the United States. And definitely happy even though it was not easy, but it was very hard, and it was very challenging for myself and for my parents. But I’m glad that they gave me the opportunity to create something special here. Most �14 people don’t even get that. And I’m happy that I had the opportunity to become a U.S. citizen because, whoa, that immigration process was crazy. Crazy. I mean, it’s different from the way I’m telling you and different for you living it. It’s frustrating. It’s um, you just feel like you’re in an assembly line. It’s horrible. It’s a horrible feeling. I mean it’s streamlined now. For me when I had to renew my mom’s citizenship papers, um it’s definitely better. But man, when I was 18, I’m what 49 now, it was not easy. It was really bad. So, I’m glad that I had that opportunity to actually become a U.S. citizen. And I don’t regret that one minute. Palas: Are you proud that you come from a country like Greece? Sfiriou: I am proud. I am proud of my family. I am proud of everything that Greece stands for. I’m proud of our Greek culture and our heritage. Um, (pause) but um, I’m sorry what was the question again? Palas: (laughs) Are you proud that you come from a country like Greece? Sfiriou: Yes, absolutely! I’m very proud. But I’m also proud to be an American. Heck yeah! Um, but Greece has so many like beautiful places, and different whole traditions, that it’s from one island to another island that has different traditions. And there’s so many things that I still need to learn. Um, but when I go down there, I’m so limited because I only have like two weeks to go. And by the time you finish the Greek stuff, is what I’m saying, like I come back frustrated, because I still, when I go down, I have to meet up with accountants, I have to meet up with the taxing department, I have to meet up and pay, you know, everything. And even when you’re doing it here in the United States, and paying there, it’s so different. I mean, their system sucks. So, I’m happy that I’m Greek, but I’m proud to be an American. Palas: So, when you go down there for vacation it’s more of a chore instead of a vacation. Sfiriou: Yeah, it’s more like a burden than a vacation. Because the whole week I’m running around doing stupid stuff instead of relaxing. And then by that time I’m so frustrated. Plus, I am very like, like the example um, I went on vacation to do uh snorkeling. So, the difference between the United States and Greece is there’s not protocols or policies. Okay, so I go onto this, this boat for scuba diving, but yet, there is no safety jacket, there’s no um railing to it when you get out. Like he just left me in a cave to swim like I want to say half a mile, so he can come under the cave or the cavern to pick me up, in the middle of the ocean! Um, here in the United States, you would not leave your passengers uh to swim without you having safety protocols and policies. This is what I’m telling you is their policies and protocols, especially with safety, customer safety, or even people in general, they have no policies. Um, like, I also I have dual citizenship. And I can vote in Greece, but yet, you have to go to another island to vote. It’s messed up, the way of doing things is messed up. It’s just when you go into the doctors, they don’t even know, I mean, not all healthcare is like that. But it’s just the small islands. So, can you imagine what these small communities are going through? With not having these policies implemented. That why I can’t do well in Greece. I don’t do well, there is no structure. Everything to them is, oh, let’s go have a cup of coffee. I don’t want to have a cup of coffee. I want to get my stuff done and enjoy my vacation! Palas: Was it difficult maintaining a relationship with the family that is still in Greece. �15 Sfiriou: Oh yeah. It’s still hard because they don’t get, not all, not all my family, certain people, um they get it, but certain people don’t get it. Um, and a lot of my family doesn’t have a career. Most of the people who have a career like, such as mine is the men. They don’t have a college degree. Well, my cousin’s wife has an economics degree, bachelor’s. But she’s running a flourishing business. But not everybody’s like me. Not everybody has um, (sighs) not everybody has something that they do on their own. Like, mostly it’s their family that’s paying to create something for them, where I did it on my own. Does that make sense? Palas: Um hum. Sfiriou: Where their parents create a business and then they run it. Where I found my own job, on my own merits. I bought my own house on my own. They don’t do that. It’s like, it is different. And some, some of them understand, some of them don’t. And some of them that don’t understand, I just kind of learned to walk away now. So, they can keep talking. And I’m just walking away because they just don’t get it. Palas: Now before we finish up, was there anything else you would have liked to talk about? Sfiriou: No. Palas: All right. Sfiriou: I just have to say, I’m sorry that I’m taking care of my father and he’s in the other room sleeping because he’s just not well. Palas: So that’s what the snoring was? Sfiriou: Yes, I’m sorry. Palas: In case anyone on the interview hears it, that’s what that was. Sfiriou: Yeah, he’s an oncology patient, so. Palas: All right. Thank you so much for your time. This was a great opportunity. All right, thank you. Sfiriou: Thank you. Interview Ends � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/5cab25810e5c6829db9504776629e007.m4a?Expires=1785369600&Signature=biRJgH8wuQdmkNhB6qph8I5W-4nwQL64Qz7idBNH86XdQ7qZpggZTwnKeLJ3MhxGc5bfC2tD93CLjQJHsbVaOqizh6DNk0P-nNsXxQNef6O7E029HRapzHCKTzvxEtlfTEKjb-JxIVJC75qqWQb8KVijUuAKLUmqSKro-qLpXGaOLt2aD9Br-Jf1HL42MpMaUf5iI7EAP-ySKvPAbVBg3X4ajfc%7E-Vju2vIjkSbhYTJQKdVBj5MwQpuJULkdQMzXUGzdT4XujqLNjMPIe0DMh5cMins-mt266GaY572Rgsfbb6cc9LnXm5cKMRovrgxwbDSGTlB9c-j4-76a3bGdEg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 358d08f53d65762d7997d1e55f742d63 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2021 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Antonio Palas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Antonia Sfiriou Location The location of the interview Baltimore City, MD Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Antonia Sfiriou Description An account of the resource This interview between Antonio Palas and Antonia Sfiriou is a comprehensive look at the experiences of Antonia as a female immigrant to the United States from Greece. Born on a small Aegean island, Antonia was brought to the United States by her parents when she was very young. She details her story of leaving Greece and settling in a Greek neighborhood in Baltimore, her struggles to learn English, her ambitions to enter the healthcare profession, and the obstacles that she faced to attain her dream. Antonia’s interview shines light on the attitudes and beliefs of Greek culture on women. She recounts how her story fit and broke the mold on women assembled by Greek culture. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2021). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Antonio Palas Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, M4A, JPG Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 28, 2021 Catholic Catholicism education Greece Women Women's History https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/a309dc39a3fbaea5c63aacb7f97db1f3.png?Expires=1785369600&Signature=tkbYHPOrzbssXdlgiGWLBvyjOyEbZotNhXAoVgBmsXOAiQZ1uMnEP5YYBYoqGq6-wbpmPgzBXv0IOOHVgvQuUX9AH388B-4slXA87Z6mMyjOMRpcKOaDywjxZ1tO8EsygTXdjypB5zyY30tSZj29jqEiRffhVpqAbi9LeHBD5emI8KyVUW0igDkw7gHcgobCF-Lsy-oM6ERDjjkeYm0vNCnOPBXMzPo0qMvcGaGPmpWz%7EdzIGHSvEdU4nHv6zA2SmB6XEYEKHWB8irMBsme2DSY8nrpcpW-sV0N2cNykcv8bD3McNC2mC10hpprl%7EAaZBuLUyuteFuTUs3PPm3NvVg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 0851b7e908d10385d03e23e683f25175 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/9cf88ecbc6a2690a4dcd6ab33a6d40b0.pdf?Expires=1785369600&Signature=H5w34Fx9kO06AP%7ECDewh87M9SYmbuoOCPeiedIod1TbiJDq1UZ04aH7eK1G4-9EzAuAXFWgIJaLlI9O74wI0ztH-2292pTUuFZ-dHzhVrS2a%7ErcGF82%7EGX9mnTnf4wL0PSxIjwUbSbbRaiAwe1mfAO3ehsdFkok8xLC3NZf1-kEN%7EAuXmYLtygWug2stp0RC3ZG1cGGOsxqha2M9n-mY3OJBvCJzH9c6FpfjsYP3sOOPBj69-jUB%7E%7EEP319%7ENH%7E4C3bwOI8zaNPX2jiZyGJLa0f7aUSIvC44Q7ch6ozjA6uWTY9eaeWc66pyUOSgT3Vui7Lfajsj7S5cRY5tRxMvnA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 1741cab77432833b621a43dada4e3450 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2019 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Austin Kleber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed "Monica Geller" Location The location of the interview Silver Spring, Maryland, USA Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data PDF Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of "Monica Geller" Description An account of the resource This interview between Austin Kleber and "Monica Geller" (pseudonym) explores Monica's experience as an immigrant in the United States. She speaks about the cultural differences she had to navigate as well as the isolation and sadness that accompanied her move into a new country and new community. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Austin Kleber Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 27, 2019 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History assimilation childhood childhood migration class Communication community cultural differences culture Culture Shock driving education employment England expectations family food gender roles higher education holidays India Iraq marriage Middle East Opportunity race racism religion safety South Asia technology television Transportation travel visa https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/2ddb508b99677e148f72481466097897.png?Expires=1785369600&Signature=j8-tELpqS-y-ralviRwg7nk8yhALuurX6qjeuw5aT1DIVXWYDUwAwqkVaNkDNuu6VPDOrOVmg6oSycoq-z8jjy7b74MqUEpODNYjjMIZTEhgUP3ZL1CsRUc5W7b4F1oi61bJv2bjdtbPq5qSaA1%7E5nKtPtUuVOgjv6Y-LDV6nCbJHo6fSxBkl1JPBhxQ2xNh%7EEbpqwrk%7EM84vEeSRcwPtDy902SJvhwC7zDc2VzY%7EpepbvbDdGurrh469IvqQuoYKncub3D-HNTS129Oy4iq9a6jEZQrbZEeofjF5qt-z57iusxb2kzxVlz6LvoyS5e1a8%7EArl-oqw0eElVLJdVWRg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Avani R. Katre Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ratnakar Katre Location The location of the interview Clarksburg, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ratnakar Katre Description An account of the resource This interview between Avani Katre and her father, Ratnakar Katre, delves into his childhood, overcoming the struggles of poverty, and finding his way to America to build a life for him and his family. He explains the difficulties of attaining his education and of finding a job in his chosen career field as well as the unique challenges of chasing ambition from rural India. The interview also explores the experiences of an immigrant coming on a work visa and becoming a naturalized citizen, hinting at the exploitation by companies of these immigrants. Throughout the interview Ratnakar focuses on his work ethic, his ambition, and gratefulness even in the face of all his struggles in both India and the U.S. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Avani R. Katre Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 12, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History education H1B India jobs Poverty https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/f006ac2d9990bc30f4586c671ba56eb4.png?Expires=1785369600&Signature=LvR0duPME4IYeoJKAGYbWonq1qsdW67F6Xoi6q7JIj%7E1i8pyg9BJwsPEiQgY81FsAuS-huiK8rrYnpJd3SOnXT8DpSNA0GNs8rnpUPbYM7iTemVkdw0gxYRj6oy0neVl0Asw48YBiwGG43xbipTfjvxdUKbKDvZ9twmjKG1ymoWYOnvOwkdqtzAh9gQzfEbMRh6WkAxefjO8wZnDAyeU-wsa62djuf651p9voXvKlGgic1t1owAjw4xVnxHlHjyzmAvw4jWKJVwmJ-hzvVIGw5LHojJiR6XaT0cmKVdyNzm06GwA9YTJzGUzu7Auedhkkah9tx-YLxyJhUY8iLYKhg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bala Govindaraju Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vasanthi Kandsamy Location The location of the interview <span xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us" class="TextRun SCXW171178747 BCX0"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW171178747 BCX0">Clarksville</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW171178747 BCX0">, Montgomery Country, Maryland, United States</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW171178747 BCX0"> </span> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vasanthi Kandsamy Description An account of the resource This interview between Bala Govindaraju and Vasanthi Kandsamy discusses Vasanthi’s experience growing up in India and migration to the United States. Vasanthi recounts her experience in the Indian educational system, family relationships, and labor migration. She also considers her racial-ethnic identification in India and the US. Vasanthi reflects on the difficulties communicating with family back home and family reunification. Throughout the discussion, Vasanthi shares how much had changed since her migration -- from the city side to increasing educated migrants moving to foreign countries for better opportunities. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR400 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Colleen Woods of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bala Govindaraju Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 7, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Dharmapuri education family India maryland visa work https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/a8fabfec6b92e55d2fbd69af85716feb.png?Expires=1785369600&Signature=YA63%7EDrxtiEu2p6pH1Ph7FvKD9Br1Uv8CPyXgXgRRl4V7zy7kmkPqOmUlDuYWJNe9pu1%7EBed2x3dct77OWnnACRZgTDOnlwJjusHvpFoN3TsijQ%7EGQN3bXpGPmFTdRBXGQmT4WUFcQsz8r9utV2wlyVxZGtuy1qc8ZKNzgQ2X41QWhXDcBwEjRr6tziLFZ9sgtEl7oAg8f8at3-0UR5VgoQqmpzCJvAsOOVFZ6aeSmXMk2U2f257cP155w51ecLL-1ATjyPpx86nkG3SKytSmWJqQtVH1fic48ZQVkJTRtgVAATH5h0QeUBStgCZyBEO6O8cQ6SWdWmjT9WALdgGug__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2020 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Brianna Sheard Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anicet Nono (pseudonym) Location The location of the interview Maryland, USA Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview of Anicet Nono (Pseudonym) Description An account of the resource This interview with Anicet Nono (pseudonym) explores Anicet's immigration from Cameroon to the United States in 2012 through a Diversity Visa. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2020). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brianna Sheard Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 2, 2020 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu). 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Rush Interviewer’s name: Caleb McClatchey Narrator’s name: Argentina McCarthy Narrator’s Country of Origin: Panama Narrator’s Current Residence: Columbia, Howard County, MD, USA Date of Interview: March 1, 2024 Place of Interview: Columbia, Howard County, MD, USA Introduction: This interview between Caleb McClatchey and Argentina McCarthy explores Argentina’s adolescence in Panama and her adult life as an immigrant in the United States. Growing up in the small town of David, she speaks about Panamanian culture and navigating poverty and political turmoil in her teen years. Argentina intertwines her immigration experience with her older sister’s, recounting the sacrifices she and her mother made in Panama to allow her sister to immigrate first. While Argentina did not want to immigrate, she was forced to come study by her mother and arrived to the United States in 1969 at age 18. Argentina discusses her struggles learning English and making ends meet upon initially arriving. She highlights the different roles she has had in her time here: a stay-at-home parent, then a high school Spanish teacher, and now a grandparent. Keywords: Panama, immigrant, teacher, parent, poverty McClatchey: Alright. We're recording, so I'll start out with a littleMcCarthy: Ok. McClatchey: introduction. McCarthy: Mhm. McClatchey: So I'm Caleb McClatchy and today I'll be interviewing Argentina McCarthy. Today is March 1st, 2024. We are in Columbia, Maryland. And we'll be doing a oral history interview today. So with that, let's get started. So my first question, just starting out simple, is when were you born? McCarthy: What year, what? McClatchey: They, they want the birth date, you can just give the year, if that's, if you’re uncomfortableMcCarthy: Oh, no, I'm ok. Yeah, I, like I told you I’m open. I was born in March. This is my birthday month. That’s convenient it was March 1st. Long time ago, 1951. McClatchey: Ok. �2 McCarthy: Yeah. So. McClatchey: Ok. And then, where? McCarthy: I was born in Boquete, a very small town in the mountains in Chiriquí, which is one of the provinces in Panama. McClatchey: Uh, and so what, what can you tell me about where you grew up? McCarthy: I was born in Boquete, however, though I grew up in, in David. David was at that time a, a very small city where we pretty much knew, small community, that knew each other. Good for the adults, not for the teenagers because if you did something that your parents didn't approve of by the time you made it home they would already know, somebody would have informed them. It was nice because it was a sense of community where everybody look out for one another, where seems like everybody was my mother or my father. So there will be taking, you know, reprimanding you and making sure that you were doing the right thing. Along with that community of friends, it was that close community, community of family because we lived close by, my grandmother lived just a few houses down, so it was in a sense very nurturing from that point of view because you never felt totally alone. And, uh, you know, so that'sMcClatchey: How, how would you say that affected you growing up? McCarthy: Um, it was, like I said, it was nurturing and I knew that I could go when I had a problem, I could go to either my grandmother and depending what I kind of advice, if I wanted to, uh, you know, you didn’t want McClatchey: Yeah, sure. McClatchey: (Both chuckle) Yeah. Right. Right. But I could go to a grandmother. Or I could talk with my neighbor or an aunt about whatever and depended, like I said, on how I felt with a member of the family, of the community. And being a teenager or a young person, you sort of tend to manipulate a little bit (McClatchey chuckles) where you go. So it was good in that, you know, that affected me and that, it made, there was a sense of security that you could always go to somebody you were not, never alone, even when you might have felt alone, it wasn't really for too long. It was also, the sense of community was very noticeable at school. So we work in groups helping each other. So if, I wasn't good at math, but my friend was good at math, so he, we will get together and he will explain whatever to us. And, and it was like that, that interest that we had, that we wanted that other person to do well and it was again that community that we grew up with, where you were looking out for one another all the time. McClatchey: You said it was fairly small about. Can you give aMcCarthy: It was, um. McClatchey: -rough number. �3 McCarthy: Well, I'm. I would have to make it up. It might have been, it’s agriculture, It's an agricultural area. So the, the community, where the, where I grew up, the homes were fairly close even though it was a lot of land and very agricultural. And so because of those people that were living far away and you put the numbers, I would say maybe in that particular part of town, there might have been maybe. Umm. Maybe. And this is an estimate, maybe 50,000, 75,000 at the time, I don't know. But the community, the little town where I grew up, you know, like main street was just like, sort of equivalent to Ellicott City. Maybe add another street to the sideMcClatchey: Ok. McCarthy: And, and the park, central park. McClatchey: Ok McCarthy: So it wasn't really that big. Umm. McClatchey: Ok. So it's a small town, but not, not like a village?. McCarthy: It's a small town. No, it wasn't a super small, but part of it is cultural where people, you say hello to somebody and then your friends run away. (McClatchey laughs) Sort of like FacebookMcClatchey: Ok. McCarthy: -right? Like old time Facebook. And so even though there were like, a, a little small community here and then another one over here, we’d all sort of function together. So I knew people, we knew from other communities. Like I said I would be downtown, which wasn't necessarily the community where I was playing with friends and so forth, and I will play music during the Day of the Dead, and by the time I made it home my mother knew. And so, because somebody from here told this one (McClatchey laughs) and they were- and that's without phonesMcClatchey: Sure. McCarthy: Imagine if there was, they had phones or the smartphone. McClatchey: Yeah. McCarthy: Yeah. McClatchey: Do you have a, uh, a childhood memory that stands out to you? You know, a favorite story? McCarthy: Maybe a mischievous one, because that's what will stand up more because, I'm sure there was some kind of consequence attached to it. Um, but you're talking as a young, a very young child, or what age? McClatchey: Whatever, whatever. �4 McCarthy; Whatever? Ok, I remember, I love coffee. OK. And so, but as a young child, when I was around 5, I wasn't really allowed to drink coffee yet. But, I knew that my grandmother had a pot of coffee brewing all the time because people will come and they will have, you know, give everybody coffee, or offer them coffee. So I remember somehow getting into that coffee, drinking the coffee more than-I don't even know how I survived that-because there's a lot of coffee that I drank, and having my mother being surprised at me. I don't know. (McClatchey chuckles). So that's sort of, I don't remember any consequence, but I'm sure there was something because it's always been stuck in my head. And the more happy, like older memory was my 15th, like quinceñera, 15th uh birthday celebration where my mother, who didn't like having parties at all, had a party in their house. At that time those celebrations were done at home because there wasn't really a venue with, where to have them. And they had a lot of food, and friends, and music, and dancing the first waltz. And, uh, it was sort of goofy, but it was so, you know, it was a mixture of adults with teenagers because that's the way they do parties over there. McClatchey: Sure. McCarthy: Yeah. So that's another memory. McClatchey: Sounds like a lot of fun. McCarthy: Yeah, that was fun. I didn't want the party, but I, I had to have it. But at the end I, I ended up enjoying it. McClatchey: That’s good. McCarthy: Yeah. McClatchey: So you mentioned your school a little while ago. So my next question is like, so what is, what is your educational background? McCarthy: There? McClatchey: There and here I guess. McCarthy: Ok. Well over there as you know the school system is six years, six years. So, um, the six years in high school, you have the, you go three years and then you have the option to, for the last three years to have what they call, bachillerato, which is not, not to be confused with the bachelor degree here, but, would, would be the same word, but it's not a college degree. So you can either go, do science, business or education. McClatchey: Ok. McCarthy: And I think there was one for agriculture too, but that one, it was, one route that you could go, but you could get a job right after that, those three years. So, I chose science even though I wanted to choose, wanted education. But mostly to please my father because he wanted me to either be a nurse or a doctor and so I said, ‘Oh, I'll do that’. He was happy, but what I �5 really wanted to do was education. So that's, so my background in that sense then I had a lot of science classes, you know, and math, you know, which is not my favorite. Um, so that's that. Then from there, do you want me to tell you here? Because I didn't go toMcClatchey: Sure, yeah. McCarthy: -a college. From there, I went to a program in, to learn English in Santa Barbara. And that was two months long. And then I enrolled in a community college there, the first semester all my classes were English, English for the second learning, English 101, every, any, anything English. English grammar. And I think one history class maybe, maybe had history class. And then, um, then I transferred to another school and then eventually went to Cornell, came over here and finished school here in Towson. McClatchey: Ok. McCarthy: Yeah. And then I'm an education major, right. McClatchey: Ok. So you went to community college to Cornell to Towson? McCarthy: Well, but I didn't go to Cornell. I went there with a- because I was married. And so then, um, and so I worked there and then I took a class or so because I could do it for free. But, yeah, but um, but I didn't go, you know, it wasn’t likeMcClatchey: Right, enrolled? McCarthy: -pursuing a degree McClatchey: Ok. McCarthy: or anything like that. It was just for fun. And then I finished over here at Towson. McClatchey: Ok. What year did you graduate? McCarthy: It was pretty late because after, I got, we got back from Cornell, I, we decided to have children. And I was pretty much set, we both were in agreement that a parent, one of us should be home full-time until they went to college. So I did that. So once they went to college, while they were in college, I also was going to school. So I graduated in 1997 I think it was. McClatchey: OK, well. McCarthy: Yeah, huh. McClatchey: So, kind of going back to high school a little bit, what, can you describe kind of a typical day in high school for you? McCarthy: A typical day would be, we walked to school, there was no bus. So, my walk to school was about a mile and a half. And so at my high school had a morning session, afternoonbut I had to go to both. It wasn't like you go to either. We got to school at around 7:30. Then we �6 left at 11:30 to go home for lunch, return at 1:00 and then from there we went until 4:00. And so, a typical day was making that walk, whether it was, well in the morning it wasn't too hot but we do get heavy rain storms uh, in the afternoon, whether you were making that walk with, under the sun or bad weather, heavy rains, going to school. And then, we will go from, whatever classes we had to take and the classes were different every [McCarthy notices McClatchey looking behind her to see time on oven] McCarthy: (whispers) Do you need a watch? McClatchey: (whispers) Oh no, you’re fine. I can see the, the time there. McCarthy: Ok, ok. McCarthy: They were, uh, the classes were different. It's not like you go to the same class over here. You go, maybe, I would have taken maybe French it might have been like Tuesdays and Thursday, but the other, you know the other day at the same period I might have had science. You know, likeMcClatchey: A little like college. McCarthy: So it's like, more like college, college in that sense. We moved the class, we had a one class together and we moved from classroom to class-uh, no, we stay in the classroom the teacher will come in. We were responsible for cleaning the class, keeping the classroom clean. Um, other than that, uh, the uh, days, just like over here at Centennial [high school where McCarthy taught and Caleb attended] where you guys will gather in the cafeteria before class, right? McClatchey: Yeah, or hallways, cafeteria. McCarthy: A lot of, or the hallways, the media center. We didn't have, you know, most people gather up front of the, like in the front of the school and wait. You know and that’s that where they waited until the bell rung and then they went to their res- you know their classes. And um, it wasn’t really, that was pretty much a typical day. McClatchey: And after school endedMcCarthy: Oh excuse me. Another, anoth- no, we didn't eat lunch there, so we had to go home, eat lunch and return. So we didn't have a cafeteria. McClatchey: Ok. McCarthy: Yeah, there was not a cafeteria. McClatchey: Ok. So you're walking aboutMcCarthy: Another- �7 McClatchey: 6 miles total? McCarthy: It was, yeah, we, we were very healthy. Just like the children are now because they have to walk a lot too. So um, so there was a lot of walking. Sometimes a friend with a family that-I didn't have a car so- but a family that had a car might still recognize me because of my parents, they would stop and give me, yeah, give me a ride. McClatchey: That’s nice. McCarthy: So yeah, something like that. But usually had to walk. Yeah, so. McClatchey: And so, like after school ended, what were maybe like, what would your kind of, your afternoon, evening look like? McCarthy: Well, after school ended, we went home because we didn't have the afte-rschool activities that you have here, like sports. The only sport that is played in the school that I remember was basketball. But that was during gym, but there wasn't the after school activities of teams, you know, OK, one school against the other. So you had to have your own after-school activities. Mine were, really my parents were very big on keeping busy and helping a lot around the clas-the house. So mine really went back to house chores [cell phone begins ringing] that I had to do. And, uh, so I'm meeting, you know, with friends, sometimes friends will come to study in the early evening we will study together or I will go to their home and study, but um, nothnothing after school. Yeah. McClatchey: Kind of talking in general about Panama, the culture there, how would you describe the culture? I know, I know you already kind of talked about in your town. McCarthy: Yeah, it's a very typical of any other Latin country. You went to Mexico. You know, the people can be very like, super friendly and a lot of terms of endearment, you know, like, like I will go and ask for directions to-everybody sweethearts you, (says in sweet tone) “amorcito”, “my love”, just “my dear one” like they, and nobody seems to take offense. That’s just the way people talk to one another. Even if they just met you and you're asking for directions, that's just how they talk. And so, that type of a culture, like I mentioned before, and that might be different now, but helping one anotherMcClatchey: Sure. McCarthy: -watching out for the people. I know that in my home there was a family across that didn't have much. There was an older couple, so my mother would make extra food and I will take it there for them. But, when my mother had to work evening shifts, my neighbor was just as aware as my mother was as to what I was doing or not doing, or should be doing, or shouldn't be doing. It’s a, a happy country. Few people, I think, leave because of that. They like to celebrate a lot and even when the situation is bad, for example, when Torrijos took over as a dictator-and I was living in Panama at that time, I was a teenager-when he took over, I remember initially it was, I had a lot of fear because I was at church at the time and I had to walk home and they had �8 the curfew, 9:00. And even though it, I could tell that I had more than enough time to make it home, I didn't think I was going to. So we were really, I was running-I never run-running (both laugh) and walk, running and walk, and I was terrified. But even during those times, people would have parties. They just knew that if you had a party, the people that you invited had to stay overnight because of the curfew. And so, but they still celebrated. And we hadMcClatchey: That’s awesome. McCarthy: You know, life went on. Yeah. Happy. McClatchey: Can you talk a little bit more about kind of that time in, in Panama? McCarthy: That time? McClatchey: Yeah, with, under the dictator. McCarthy: That time there. Yeah, like I said, yeah, like I said, it was, it was scary. It happened, I think it was, like. 7:00, and it happened in my town. That's where they took over, that's where they, yeah, where they did. It. And so and they had, it was scary because they say if you are on the street after 9:00 we're just going to shoot you. McClatchey: Oh my. McCarthy: And it's the type of world that you know that is not a threat. So you grow up knowing that when they say that, they mean it. So you're terrified. Now, when I went back, you know, in school, teenagers like we had the teenagers over here walking when they have, you know, when they have like rec-recently they're walking because of the conflict in Gaza, right. They, they do the walk outs. And I'm sure you participated in some. Over there, it wasn't so much doing the walkout. But more like teenagers will get involved. So I remember going downtown with a group of adults to protest the, the military takeover. And I actually went with one of my teachers, I'm even surprised. Can you imagine a teacher over here saying, “Come on and get in my car. We're going to go through that line.” And we crossed the line and there were a lot of bombs that were thrown. Those uh, tear McClatchey: Tear gas? McCarthy: Yeah, yeah, right. And so I can’t even think-I think I'd be terrified to do that now. But as a teenager we became very involved in the protesting, marching and so. But life become very scary because people were turning other people in and they were doing that sometimes for to help themselves. To get in grace with that government and get a job. And other times because they didn't like somebody, they were doing it like that. My mother lost her job because of that, not because anybody turned in her in, but because what happened is, after the takeover, some people went to the mountains and there were, like rebels that were fighting and fighting the police to regain, like, the, the government back and so there were, we knew that that was �9 happening and my mother was supposedly talking in code with a friend, on the phone talking about how many baby chicks died? And I guess it's not really much of a code (laughs) McClatchey: Yeah (laughs) McCarthy: So both of them lost their job, and so my father had family of influence that had money. I didn't have money, but they had money and were influential in the government, so they got her the job back but what they did was that they put her to work in a different town right next door to the police station. So they could keep an eye on her McClatchey: Oh, wow. McCarthy: Right, until she retired. But there was a lot of uncertainty, a lot of fear. I was told that you couldn't talk. Just don't talk to anybody. Don't voice your opinion. Because you will hear the, the news and you will hear about a priest disappear. Or a person disappeared, and somebody who was against the, the regimen, the military. And then the next day you will say, well, an ear was sent to the radio station that was from this person. So they will start sending like, parts (McClatchey makes disgusted sound) of the body, so it's very gross and mind boggling, like the sick things that went on. Like they’re very nasty things that you don't hear over here. Cruel a lot of, yeah, so for that reason I was told, you don't talk to anybody, you don't voice opinions, you just have to be careful. Don't even look at a policeman the wrong way because they might take offense to it and so. Yeah. So it was, it was tense, it was bad. Um, and then that person was, during one of my visits was um, I'm sure he was killed because he's, the plane that he was on a little small plane just crashed. McClatchey: Who? Which person, sorry? McCarthy: Then the one that took over Torrijos. Yeah. And then Noriega came after that. Noriega was the one I think that orchestrated his plane coming down and then he became the person. So there was a, Noriega didn't take over, it was somebody else. McClatchey: And you said that happened over your town, or? McCarthy: Er they took over my town. McClatchey: No you said the plane crashed? McCarthy: No, not in my town, but in the mountains. McClatchey: Ok McCarthy: I think he was coming to my town, but it was in the mountains at the province right before. But I was visiting with my daughters, they were young. I was afraid, I said, don't talk, don't talk, not in, not in English. Because when anything like that happens if you're an American, you want to hide and I, I'm not American, but that, that's it. Don't use English, just don't talk. McClatchey: And just so, just to get a sense of the timeline here around when did they? �10 McCarthy: When did they take over? Again, I came over here in 69 so that might have been, that might have happened 1966 or 67 and, and I'm not a historian. I don’t, but I'm just estimating based on when I came over. McClatchey: Ok, and yeah I mean I can like check. McCarthy: Yeah, right. You can check it out. But it was in theMcClatchey: So your last few years in Panama. McCarthy: My last few years, well I would say my last probably two or three, three years. So it's 1966, 67. Yeah, mhm. McClatchey: And so, kind of transitioning from there. What, what can you tell me about your like immigration experience? McCarthy: Mhm. Ok. With the immigration experience, I'd like to combine that one with my sister’s, if that's OK. McClatchey: OK, sure. McCarthy: Because most people that we know of, like when we talk about immigration or we see immigration over here we have that picture of people at the border trying to cross over. And they're coming from horrible situations. That wasn’t my case. I didn't walk, I didn't cross the border illegally. My mother was a very strong woman and both my parents really, we didn't have any money. We were very poor and I can mention that it, you know, explain that a little bit later. We were very poor. So my mother decided that my sister, being the older one, was going to come to the states. She didn't know how it was going to happen. But she knew that we were going to come. So one day she was looking at her bank account, the little money that she had saved, and they had made a mistake on her account. So she went to the bank and said, Sir, you made a mistake, you have given me $5000 extra that are no mine. So I'm here for you to correct the mistake. So the bank teller did the correction. So when my sister, when it was time for my sister to come to the states, my mother, she didn't have the money. My father didn't have the money. So she went to the bank to borrow money. So the bank teller was now the loan, the person that was giving the loans. So she went to him and said I need to borrow money so that my daughter can go to the states to study. So he says, I remember you, You're a very honest lady so, and, you know, put the loan through. So that was for one semester. So my mother got the money. My sister came to the states and she finished college through that loan, you know, like the next time my mother would go say, well, I haven't paid the loan yet, I don't know how to get the money. And he goes no problem, we just borrow ex-, we borrow extra, pay that one and then keep the loan going. So. �11 What, ok. So that's how my mother sent my sister here and that will be tied to me, you know in a little bit. Um, what people don't know sometimes like is that, well, what we see is people that travel long ways to come to the States and go through horrible things, and some of them died. But not much is said about people that stay behind. So my mother, the two of us, my parents, were divorced and had divorced at that time. So the two of us were left behind. My mother was using pretty much every little penny that she made to pay as much on that loan so she could get the next one to keep my sister here. So what that meant for the two of us is that there wasn't really that much to eat. So my mother would buy (pauses) a loaf of bread. Buy, you know, you can buy coffee, like a little containers and make like 2 cups of coffee. And she will make the 2 cups of coffee in the morning. She had a loaf of bread. She will cut it in half. And we would each have a fourth of that loaf with the coffee, and that was our breakfast. And then lunch, there wasn't really a lunch. And then we would go to dinner time. My mother would take the coffee grounds from that coffee. Now she will make two other cups of coffee (McClatchey laughs), which were very weak, right? You can only imagine. Probably see-through coffee. And you know, you add milk to that. And then the other bread, the bread that was leftover. And that was the, the meal. So there was a lot of sacrifice, a lot of, I began to, myself as a teenager, look for ways that I could earn money. And so one of the priests in my church had written a book that he was selling. He was selling for $0.60. He told me. He said you can go home to home and sell it for $0.60, you get to keep $0.10. So I said, OK. So I went house to house selling these books. And then with the, the, the first time I sold the books, I remember going to the store, but you had the $0.10. So I sold one book and I had those $0.10. So you could go to the little corner store and at that time you could buy $0.05 of rice and that will give you like [gestures amount] and five cents of beans. And so, and then I went home and cooked them and surprised my mother with a meal. The other option, and I remember thinking well, I could buy a coke for a nickel and I could buy a sweet for a nickel (McClatchey laughs), like a little pastry, right. McClatchey: Yeah. McCarthy: But I don't, you know, nobody likes being hungry. So the other one would last longer, and it was more nutritious. So that and then I will go to my, I told you my grandmother lived nearby, like, go 2 houses down. So I will go there and my grandmother will, will feed me because she knew what was going on, you know, like, what, you know was happening. But it was a lot and people question you like, how is she doing that? How is she doing that? Then my sister went back, you know, went back to the Panama, work for a while and then came back. And so now it was my turn to come to the states. So, again, there wasn't that much money because my mother was making, you know, I think it was like $55 a month or something. It was just really nothing. So, um, she worked for the telegraph company. McClatchey: Ok. McCarthy: Yeah. So, so in any case, so she couldn't buy the airline ticket for me to come here. So the only way that she could buy the ticket was in this program: you fly now and pay later type �12 of thing. So she got the ticket and then she had to pay monthly to that airline. And then I, my sister looked up that program in, in, um, Santa Barbara, CA where you go for two months and learn English. So my mother had, I don't even know how she got, she didn't get, she didn't have all the money. I remember she sent me with some of the money and she said to me, she said, just tell your sister she has to come up with the rest of the money. I remember, remember my sister was so surprised and not happy that she had to somehow suddenly come up with the rest of the tuition because my mother sent as much as she had. McClatchey: Was your sister there at the time, too, in Santa Barbara? McCarthy: My sister. Yeah. My sister was living in Los Angeles. McClatchey: OK. McCarthy: Yeah, she was working and living there at that time with her husband. So, so I went to that program. But so when after I finished that program and I went to the community college, I remember those memories from my sister being here were ingrained in my head. And I kept, it was hard for me, like she might have been able to enjoy her time when she was in Texas going to school because she didn't know what was happening at home. But I knew what had happened, so I didn't want to, you know, like my mother had to send me money for books and money for, I had to find, my sister helped me find a place to live. I was living with this family, but I, we had to pay her. And so whenever I was so worried about that that, that I ended up leaving that home and putting an ad in the paper and looking for a place where I could live, get a room in exchange for either cleaning or babysitting. So I did get that. It was within walking distance to the school where I babysat and helped with the cleaning of the house and I didn't have to pay for my room because I, that was so ingrained my- what we lived through my sister was so ingrained in my head that I didn't want my mother to go through more years like that. McClatchey: Sure. McCarthy: So I wanted to minimize that. And so, um. (pauses) Now. So that's my, that was my coming over here. So it's not, it wasn't a hardship of having to walk many miles and waiting at the border. The hardship was, for me was when my sister was here, there was a hardship of having to do without because she was here. McClatchey: Sure, yeah. McCarthy: And then that guilt of being here while my mother is there. And I had no choice, I mean, I didn't want to come here. But I had no choice, as, you know, in that culture you they tell you this is what you're going to do and there is no discussion. Right, so. McClatchey: So that, that kind of takes me to my next question which is, why, why did you immigrate? So, I mean, it sounds you’ve kind of mentioned it. �13 McCarthy: Right, it was, yeah, it was, I wanted to go, believe it or not I wanted to go to Russia. And the reason is tied to my sister, all this is tied to my sister. Because at the time that I was getting ready to graduate, Russia had gone to my little town and was looking, like doing the propaganda, looking for students to go to Russia. So they were offering a really good deal, I thought. My mother just didn't go for it. She actually got mad that I even suggested it. But they were going to pay my college education, everything room, board, everything. And in addition to that, they were going to give her a monthly check to my mother to help her and I thought well, you don’t have to go hungry. You don't have to, we don't, you don’t have to do what you did with my sister, right? McClatchey: Right. McCarthy: And, but I had to go back. I, I didn't have the option of staying in Russia if I liked it. I had to go back. So I knew that was propaganda because you go back and you talk about it and it makes them look good and all that stuff. But my mother got really upset when I suggested it. So that's where I wanted to go but she said, you know, you're going to the states. And that was it. Not up to you-not up for discussion, yeah. McClatchey: In your first few, so once you got to the States and when, were in community college, you, you stayed right? Like you didn't come back like your sister? Or I mean like maybe trips, but like you were there permanently then? McCarthy: I had to stay because we didn't, my parents didn't have the money for me to go and visit. McClatchey: Ok. McCarthy: Yeah. Same, same when my sister was over, she couldn't. She cried she wanted to go back and she wanted to go and visit. I, you know she, well, we didn't hear her cry, but she wrote letters where she was begging to go and visit, but there wasn't enough money for that. So the, the answer was always no. McClatchey: Yeah. In your first few years in the United States, what, what stood out to you as most different from Panama? McCarthy: A lot of things were so different, very different. I guess (pauses) even I'm going to go back to the first, you know, my first two months when I was in that program. Um, I mean, not necessarily people related, but more language related was that I wanted, I was so accustomed to assigning everything a gender that I remember being like, stop. I would begin talking about the pretty table. She's so, I like her, you know, she's so, the, her colors are really pretty and she's so, you know, beautiful and you know. And, and so people will stop and that, that was like a conversation stopper. McClatchey: Ah. �14 McCarthy: And people would be confused. So I remember, like, grammatically that was the one thing that always it took me, maybe one of the first self-correcting things that I did because it would, because people stop and question it. McClatchey: Sure, yeah. McCarthy: So it's like one of the first things that I started to correct. As far as culturally? The thing that really stood out for me was like I was so used to people just dropping by the house whenever. And so you always have to be ready that anybody would show up. And my mother will be like, [hits table multiple times emphatically] the house has to be cleaned by 9:00 because anybody could come. So that was my job duty. We had tile flooring because it's humid so you couldn't really have carpet. It wasMcClatchey: Mhm. McCarthy: Yeah so. So those tiles, thetile flooring had to be swept every day, had to be mopped every day and everything had to be perfect. That's because people might come and you don't want to be messy. And because people would just drop. Anytime. They could be walking and they go, oh, I think I want to see Maria. And they would just stop. With us over here, I noticed that people didn't like that. That was, what I call appointment making. Like you told me, you know, we talked about you coming at 1:00, right? [The time of the interview] McClatchey: Sure. McCarthy: Right. So, and I had to get used to that, to arrange my life with letting people know when I was going to be someplace, if I was going to be. And maybe ask, not just say. Because people don't ask, they just show up. McClatchey: That's really interesting. That’s a big difference. McCarthy: Yeah, that they just, they might even go from one city like Panama City, they will go to David and they will just call my mother and say, Maria, I'm going to be there for the weekend so I'll see you, I mean, get that room ready for me. (McClatchey laughs) So there was not any, Can I come over? Is it convenient for you? None, none of that. And then the other thing that you have might, you might have noticed when you went to Mexico, Mexico is the proximity, you get close to people when you talk. It’s closer and arms around, or like they're teasing, more affectionate. So those are the, like, I guess what stood out as far as people. There were a lot other things but they were more physical. McClatchey: Ok. McCarthy: You know, like the homes, the way things work. Not understanding, being confused coming from a place that wasn't really up to, was very old, didn’t have doorbells (laughs), didn't have a lot of things that were confusing to me. �15 McClatchey: Ok, so also in this first few years did you, I know you said you didn't get a chance to travel backMcCarthy: Mmm, no. McClatchey: Did you keep any other connections to Panama in any way or to your family? McCarthy: Um yes, through letters. Because again, you know, it was too expensive to call. For, I for me to call or for them to call me. Now, it's easier to, you know, and it's not as expensive nowadays, but at that time it was. It was a lot through letters. And I kept in contact with my mother and my, some of my cousins, friends through letters writing, yeah. The art of writing letters, which is forgotten by now, yeah. McClatchey: Yeah. McCarthy: Yeah, mhm. McClatchey: And so kind of since those initial years you, you said you call more now. Are there any other ways since then that you've kind of kept that connection going? McCarthy: Um, (pauses), once I was out of that, once I was able to work and was able to earn money and then I was making phone calls, I was calling. So you know, like you could, I would get those calling cards, the little calling cards that I don't know that they even exist anymore, that you will pay like for, supposedly you could talk for three hours. You use them once for 20 minutes and it was gone. Like they, no, they never really work the way they were supposed to work, but that's what I used for calling. I would go to the Latin stores and get those. But um, but it wasn't even that often. It was more like for birthdays or different celebrations that we will call each other, right? McClatchey: Um, did you ever visit, eventually? McCarthy: Yes. Once, once I decided to, once I was going to get my green card, for me to get the green card, because I'm from this continent, I couldn't get it and staying here. I had to leave the country and reenter. So it could have been, I didn't have to go to Panama, I could have gone to Mexico and re-enter, but I chose and I had the money to go to Panama. So I went to Panama, visited, and then re-entered to get a green card. And then after that I was, you know, I started to visit and then my mother would also come and visit. McClatchey: So you had to re-enter to get the green card? McCarthy: Right? That's one of the differences between the European countries and the Americas is that in, if I had been from Spain, like a Spanish, um, I would have been able to get my green card here without having to go back to Spain. But in this continent you have to leave and reenter. McClatchey: Interesting. �16 McCarthy: Isn't that? Yeah, yeah. McClatchey: So do, was this that, just, was that just something that you would get as you’re crossing back in sort of thing? Like, or why, why is it that you had to go back and come back? Or is that just how it works. McCarthy: It's just the way that the laws are. I always found that interesting the way that the laws are. I don't know, but you have to exit and reenter. And of course, the paperwork is already done. You know, all the paperwork is done prior and then, to some extent, and then I get the ca-, I go to the embassy in Pan- the U.S. embassy in Panama and then finalize it and then I get the card and then I re-enter. I had to re enterMcClatchey: OK. McCarthy: But I cannot get it here, I had to leave the country. McClatchey: Interesting. McCarthy: Yeah. And I don't know that that has changed, but that's the way it was when I got the green card. McClatchey: Do you remember around what year that was? When, when you first went back and got the green card? McCarthy: (pauses) Let me see. Go back to 75, 74. Might have been 70…69…72. McClatchey: OK, so about three years after you arrived in the U.S. McCarthy: Yeah, right. McClatchey: Um, kind of transitioning to like your career and just what you've done here in the US, can, can you tell me about the occupations you've had here, both maybe professionally and also, you know, being, being a mother? McCarthy: Right. Well, yeah, the number one occupation was being a mother, I enjoyed that a lot. I like, I like young kids. I like kids. I like the humor, even when they're being mischievous, they are funny and no different toddlers no different than teenagers, but they're, they're like, very much alike. Yeah. Um, but I, (pauses) being a mother, I guess before when I was at school, I worked as a, in the language lab for a while. Uh, I have to make money somewhere with when I was going to school. Believe it or not I painted to make money to pay for tuition. Paint their homes, clean homes, mhm, in the summer to gather enough money to pay for my tuition. Sort of forget about that, was thinking about it recently, but yeah. Yeah, the cleaning some of their homes, were like, the stove where I was like, I don't know that I can clean that stove (McClatchey laughs) because people will call to get the house cleaned for the wedding, for example, and then you have to do all this cleaning that has, had not been done for years. �17 But before I became, before I went to work in high school, I worked as, in the preschool, because I like that age, that was the age that I felt the most comfortable with. Because they were not tall like you (laughs), so, they were little and they were cute and they, you know, I like the way that they look at the world. So I worked in a preschool for many years and then after that, in church, I was asked to work with teenagers. And not work for money but like, you know, as part of mom, my, one of the things that I did in church was for, it was teenagers. And that's when I realized, came to the realization that they were just really bigger toddlers. And so when I went to college, that's where I decided to go and get a degree on, (thinking) eighth through twelfth once I felt comfortable, otherwise I would have gone with elementary school. But through the church and working with the teenagers, I realized that they’re just big toddlers. And so, so after that I worked, went to work at the high school. But before then, I took, for two years, I volunteered, no money. I volunteered, you know, at the, with the hospice in Howard County. And I also, in the school, when my kids were going to school, I was usually the room mother. Prepare all those parties and get stuff together for the, the school. And um, Girl Scout leader, did things that I don't like to do, like sleep in the, in the park going to, you know, taking the kids to sleep over. So I did a lot of things, volunteered, some of it was volunteered and some others I got some money. Like for the preschool I got money, not really, money like to go out to lunch. They don't really pay that much, even the teachers, they don't pay them that much. McClatchey: And so when, you said up until your kids went to college, were you, you primarily staying at home? McCarthy: I was a stay-home mom and I do, during that time I, you know, either volunteered at the school, sometimes if I wasn’t a room mom, I will volunteer to go and give a talk or help with something, organize something. I was a Girl Scout leader, I volunteered at a Hospice, um, you know I use, I, because I will get bored at home, I guess. Yeah. So I will try to find something to do. Yeah. McClatchey: Sounds like you did like a variety of stuff. McCarthy: Yeah, right, yeah. McClatchey: Can you talk a little bit about your experience, like teaching, in the US? McCarthy: Oh, I love teaching. I guess it's, I guess I always view teaching not so much as teaching the content more than I saw it more as a, molding a person to be the most that they can be. And sometimes that didn't go too well with some students. But I just felt that, I don't know if you, I don't think you were in a class where I would give my little lectures about the students putting their head on the, on the desk. And, you know, and I would be like guys, I’m going to stop right now. You're going to pretend that you're at work. And you really hate your boss. You don't like the job. But you're going to sit there and you're going to look interested. And you’re �18 going to, you know, you don't let them know, you don't put your head down. You, you know, it's like a little acting job, I said. And this is a practice for that. So. (both laugh) But they didn't, you know, some, some students didn't like that. But that was really the main thing that I saw that, because in my personal life I had teachers that made a difference in my life. And they were not necessarily always my favorite teachers. And so I, I enjoyed the teaching for that reason. And then when it comes to teaching the subject, I enjoy when the students were able to use the language, that brought me a lot of enjoyment, it was, it really when I would hear them speak. That was very rewarding. McClatchey: Sure. McCarthy: Yeah. When I heard that you went to Mexico, even though you did that on your own, but you, I taught you for two years I was like, oh my gosh, so good. Or, uh, Mr. Ahearn’s, his daugh-I taught his, well he has four children, but I taught three. The other one went to private school. But I taught, Riley became a Spanish teacher. And now she's, she went from Spanish to ESOL, she's working with ESOL teaching. But I taught her and I taught her husband too. McClatchey: That's awesome. McCarthy: Yeah. So when they got married, they invited me, but I didn’t the wedding. But yeah, so when I see that that the kids, they don't have to major in the language, but if they use it and if I could help them be a better person, I guess, that's the way I side more so than teaching the content, yeah. McClatchey: Sure, that sounds very fulfilling to know that, kind of, you made an impact on that and helped. McCarthy: But yeah, yes. McClatchey: Yeah, to do that, yeah. McCarthy: Yeah, yes, yeah, and some of that, you know, it's, you know, I saw some of the students. You cannot impact, you cannot make an impact on everybody. McClatchey: Sure. McCarthy: Yeah, but then I saw some results with some of the students that have very low self esteem, some of them didn't think that they were smart. And there is one that, he friended me on Facebook recently that, I, he wrote, it's funny because I was reading this note that he wrote to me. And it was one of the nicest notes-this is before your time-there was some kind of like poetry competition in this, in the system, county and I had them, you know, I could have them memorize like a short poem, but it was, what’s the point in that? So I had them memorize a long poem that was very, had a lot of rhythm to it, that it was easy to memorize because of that. So we memorized that, and then they had to compete through the, with the, within the school, and then one person was selected and they had to go to the county and compete with all the other schools. �19 So, Oji I think was the kids name, what, so in any case, he, you know, he wasn’t like the most studious student. And he was smart and I used to talk with him all the time, and I said you’re so smart. If you just, you know, do like, you know, it was. But even after he left my class, I will talk with him every so often about that. But in any case, he was chosen to be the one from Centennial to compete. So I went with him to the competition and he had a drum and he was drumming and he won the county competition thing. So he wrote a very nice, wrote me a very nice note about that, how that he felt like I had followed his career like, because I used to call him and said come on, do your stuff. And so, but yeah, so that kind of stuff is rewarding. So, but um, and that's what I miss. I don't really miss the adults, or the system. Yeah, but that's it. McClatchey: So, I mean, obviously you taught Spanish so that, you know, your background helped you in that, but in general, how did or did being an immigrant kind of impact your experience teaching? And if so, how so? McCarthy: Well, the, the being, knowing the language is actually not, it's not a, as a positive thing, in a sense. Maybe with the AP class helps. But with the initial, like the level one, two and three, I would say the first couple of years that I taught, I was not really, didn't do a good job with that because when you, that's your first language, you take a lot of things for granted. And you explain and you think it's understood. So it's better like to, you know, it took me a couple of years to put myself in the American mind. Like the American mind, how you might be looking at something. Because to me it was common sense that you get rid of the -ar and put the endings. But that was confusing, and some of the things that, the mistakes that the students made didn't make sense to me. But once I started to pay attention, I go, OK, that's what makes sense to them. So when I explained it, I have to look at that angle, I cannot be looking at it from mine. And so that, you know, knowing the language was maybe not a positive thing at the beginning. But as an immigrant, um, that's a hard question. As an immigrant, how did that? McClatchey: And maybe and maybe it didn't, I'm just. McCarthy: No, but no, because I never even thought about it. But now, um, well (thinking) as an immigrant, it helped me get a job because people mis-, people think that because you know Spanish, that it’s going to really be helpful in the job so it helped me in that sense. And it gave me credit, helped with the credibility with parents, at least those early years when I really should have not been given so much credit for it. But you know, but also, as an immigrant, I guess, even though I didn't understand the, the language differences completely, it helped me with having the base on how I learn English. Try to explain that to the students and sometimes there was a year where that didn't go too well and the class was like disappearing because they were terrified. And they were terrified because I said, you know, you knew that in my class you had to use Spanish, right? And I made it like that because that's how I learned English. I mean, I was in a, in a program where it would have been so easy for them to let me use Spanish. But I couldn't even eat without using English. They were told, if she doesn't use English, she doesn’t get food. McClatchey: Oh, wow. �20 McCarthy: So, I had to, the workers in the cafeteria were told that because I used to just go and point. And they were nice, they used to give to me (McClatchey laughs), but then they were told that I had to call it by name because they had the name there. So I understood at one point that in order to learn the language, you had to put it to use. So, in that sense, maybe that's one takeaway, take from, being an immigrant, knowing that you had to use the language. Because some people are here for a very long time and they don't learn English because they're afraid to use it. But the, just like in the class, some people don't want to use it because they don't want to be embarrassed, right? But the less you use it, the less you learn it, because you have to put it to use for your mind to start making all those connections that need to be made to then, and then to self-correct as you go along so that, that will be I think, one thing that I was very big, I don't know that, I don't know that any other teacher was. Mrs. Comito [another Spanish teacher at our former high school] now is. Mrs. Comito yeah she calls me now, she, we talk every day. So she asked me, what was the, the thing that you did so that they will use Spanish in the class. And so, but I think that would be the takeaway, because I was in a situation where, in the program that I went to, besides not being able to get food unless I call it by name, I was the person that knew the least Spanish. So the American people that were participating in that group, for credit I'm sure, whenever they saw me, they had to talk to me in English. And they would have to go, this is a table, what is it? And I had to say, this is a table. So at the end of the day my head was like, I hurt because there were like, I, I was avoiding people. I would be getting off the elevator and I saw somebody and I would (laughs) hit the next floor. To avoid them, I will pretend to be asleep when my roommate will come to the room, because I just, I can't deal with it, I don't want to, I don't want anybody to ask me anymore questions. Right? And so, so I guess I realized that you had to use it, so that might be some take. McClatchey: Sure. McCarthy: Because also my career, I pretty much pushed the use of the language in the classroom. McClatchey: I definitely, I like that aspect of your classes. Even in college, there's some professors who push that more than others. AndMcCarthy: Right. McClatchey: I think it helps when they when they do push it, yeah. McCarthy: Yeah, you have to use it, otherwise, you can’t, yeah. McClatchey: And then one of my, my final, one of my like 2 questions left. What, what would you say is your current occupation? What, what do you now? McCarthy: Well, being re- you know, I'm doing a lot of things. Didn't you work outside? Didn't you mow lawns? I remember you mentioned that youMcClatchey: In high school, yeah. �21 McCarthy: Yeah, I remember you said that. I don't know if you noticed when you came in, I can show you, like a, there's like a, river bed, or like, I I'll show you when we go outside. McClatchey: Sure. McCarthy: But I, I work, I love working outside. So I, there is a water issue around here that with the way the water runs. So I decided to make the house more water safe. So, I, I went, went around the perimeter of the house and, but I used plastic, I don't know if I'm supposed to use plastic or not, and then I put the rocks, pebbles and put them all around. And then on the front on one side I created like a, like a almost like a riverbed that goes to the side to take the water that way. And then I'm supposed to, this year, do the other side, but now I have a conflict with that. But so, so my jobs really right now I have a couple of jobs. One is to keep active physically and enjoy being, you know, like I go for walks, like I work outside. And then being a grandmother. I have two teenager teenage grandchildren. One of them is a boy and he's a little bit, um, I don't know, he’s had some uh, difficulties. He's a very good student, he gets all A’s, hates school. So first when I call him, when I call him, he goes, what, what do you want. Because that's how I talk to him, so he, you know, we can relate with that kind of silliness. And I told him one day, I said be nice, I'm a senior citizen, I could, I could report you (laughs). So, but so, I think I see my job as being, because he, he has, he's at the age where he's having difficulty with his parents, like not in agreement. He's not in agreement with the church. You're going to church and he's not ateverything is boring, but, especially church. And, although he's going to go to a church camp on his own, his decisions, I don't know. How is that any different? Uh, mom? My daughter read a book and she says some boys at that age-I don't know that that's all boys, I cannot imagine you doing that-cannot stand the, the voice of the mother and they think that the fathers are jerks. So that's the book that she read. And so they get into these silly arguments and I don't get it. And so he, you know, I'm his person to go to, so like, his support and then the same thing with my granddaughter. So I see my role as a grandparent being, you know, like I'm there for all the games. They moved to Frederick so tomorrow I'm driving to Frederick for a basketball game. I don't even, it's not, I don't know if, what part of Frederick it is. It might be like an hour, an hour and a half driving. Then I go to the little girl is [intelligible] age, so she has all this, you know, the fair, all these things. You know the viola, we’re gonna, they have all these concerts, she plays the viola. And so I, that's what I see, it's like my, that, being that grandparent trying to be that grandparent, grandmother that my grandmother was to me. Because she was very, I felt like she saved me many ways. I want to be that grandparent to them. And on that, because of that, which is why that's going to have to be postponed, that other part of it, I bought a house in Frederick. McClatchey: Ohhh, wow. McCarthy: Umm, actually, I just settled on the house yesterday. McClatchey: Exciting. �22 McCarthy: Because I want to be closer. Because it's a 45 minute drive for where they live, so sometimes, (pauses) when Sean has a bad day… but I have a feeling that he walks that fine line (pauses) like that and so. What is that he told me he got called to the office, andd he was so mad, he says, they're blaming me for stuff I didn't do (makes crying noise). I said, ok, what did you do? Or what, you know, but they were accusing him of something they actually, he actually had not done. But they did, you know, but they were too close to, to they made the call without really investigating. Once they investigated they find out who did it and who was at fault. But, but he's a little rebel. He doesn't like so, so I'll be there. He asked me if I if I will buy a basketball hoop and I said sure, I can have basketball hoop. I said I'll beat you (McClatchey laughs). Yeah. So that's my main role. And then of course, in addition to that, I like to keep, I like to play Sudoku. I like to do that. I like to do the, the word games, uh New York Times. McClatchey: The Wordle. Yeah. OK. McCarthy: The Wordle, the Connections that really is not connections. Do you do that? McClatchey: Yeah, I’ve played that. Yeah, I don't play it often but yeah, I’ve played it. McCarthy: Yesterday one group was name of animals backwards. What is that? (McClatchey laughs) I mean, I wouldn’t-just stretching that thing. So yeah, so just keeping, try to keep active. Like I said, I do a lot of walk, you know, with the neighbors if they need help, I help them. I have been in this neighborhood for 30 some years, so pretty much know the older neighbors and then the young ones too. There's a little kid, little toddler over there (motions behind her house) that comes to visit me in the summer and comes to water the plants in the summer. McCarthy: But yeah, so just um, keeping busy. I think it's important to keep busy no matter what age, there is always room to grow. And learn. McClatchey: Yeah. McCarthy: Yeah. McClatchey: That’s awesome, sounds like you still live a very full life. McCarthy: Yeah, I have to do, I was asked to work at a, another school like a private school, but that, that’s where Reily Ahearn used to work, so that, that lady who was in charge, we worked together before so she knows me. I think I, I taught her daughter when she was in preschool. But I think I'm ok not going to work. I go to visit Centennial, though. McClatchey: Oh do you? McCarthy: I go, yeah. I have to go, probably go next week sometime again. I usually bring them lunch, uh, my little department. Is this enough now that we finish? McClatchey: Yeah, I will. Yeah, I just have one, one question to wrap up. McCarthy: Ok, one more question. �23 McClatchey: Yeah. And then we can go after that. So just last question to wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to tell me as part of the interview before we finish? McCarthy: Well, that, the only thing that I always say is on my mind is that, people don't understand, you know, like, I always feel that there is that, that we sometimes don't know the shoes that other people walk in, like we don't know, you know, tend to make assumptions that people are coming here, you know as to why people come over. And I think that everybody, like through this, everybody has a story. You know, some people are escaping really bad situations. My, in my case, my mother wanted me to have a really good education that she didn't see, that she, it could be provided there because at the time that my sister and I went to school, there was only one university. And so it was limited space to go, to get in. And most of those spaces most likely would have been taken by those people that had connections, that had the money. So that would have left us out. So I think that was her motivation. You know, she wanted us to have that education and this is coming from a lady that finished her high school degree when I was going to high school. Because she hadn't, didn't have it. So she went at night, enrolled. So that was, you know, like, and so everybody come for a different reason and I think we just need to, you know, to think about that and not be so quick to criticize or make assumptions. Um, yeah so that, that's it. McClatchey: Thank you so much forMcCarthy: You're welcome. You're welcome. McClatchey: taking the time to do this, I learned a lot. I’ll end the recording now. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Caleb McClatchey Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Argentina McCarthy Location The location of the interview Columbia, Howard County, MD, U.S.A. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Argentina McCarthy Description An account of the resource This interview between Caleb McClatchey and Argentina McCarthy explores Argentina’s adolescence in Panama and her adult life as an immigrant in the United States. Growing up in the small town of David, she speaks about Panamanian culture and navigating poverty and political turmoil in her teen years. Argentina intertwines her immigration experience with her older sister’s, recounting the sacrifices she and her mother made in Panama to allow her sister to immigrate first. While Argentina did not want to immigrate, she was forced to come study by her mother and arrived to the United States in 1969 at age 18. Argentina discusses her struggles learning English and making ends meet upon initially arriving. She highlights the different roles she has had in her time here: a stay-at-home parent, then a high school Spanish teacher, and now a grandparent. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 465 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Caleb McClatchey Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 1, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource pdf, jpeg, mp4 Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio immigrant Panama parent Poverty teacher