2 10 115 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/8860bfdf40a3dcbd242624dd871943c5.jpg?Expires=1787184000&Signature=De2p5-Ky-jwSy7oBtTFTxN9Cm4rKrc9dbujqElaR2KUb4SU7iwwQnNOTioYW0YBmTvjJSrCEqNyKuQHmNFedgMZOFSt5yrdUHa8fk706NeNSiB4Fdn5phvIJfJxUCMdaGFcj2E%7EssSP4ljNaHG-X2hxy3SFo7Lgw60IE51fyc5HNxXhC4p9zT4lsuE9%7EvIORJIqnhmAeuTayqNcggPKut4PTURaNMlrw9v2IwN7ibtTKKaJw5KEHZ8nb%7EpM1RelZqt7XcoGsIoPdH8B90ZLuk154wILVff861fRKPY0M4SLHfv1dp7ETwG1TPPag8CIxOBf1sFu1sd0wl5ebZKo2Jw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 719670027456c01db1ccd537bb8f92f3 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/004a93c62ba9027ef955ae51c9e1df8d.jpg?Expires=1787184000&Signature=NnlNI3TcF7zlyunnAcTAZ04S1fKGu5-m4jWUzwzNCFj-oukHo49BArh%7E4IFlV7Us305Etl-EpSpdY8GZGN776A8SzmnIR2cpm7oHI7xVl7sfiVe%7Ek%7EBBPulK1rTUueMb48VcKgzsJ-FFD1j0vq96BUMVVWgM7y7DuUA0yDGR7MZTD01ttm7NN0LBVRGQwX0JHize5ywHlhZTJRUoEvJ0g8pzUdCjStvuGp0omYxTUXwGj3eLm2fnH5HiqDgabfCUSzSGKwvWIlsvPZN6liEGLMWMVv37O5wLj68DOZ220yS1PgQLx2QRZrLC9RMRLjFhm5OVQqmEbe2wa1HCzRtWpg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM c417289066f31be5e68fe4e1d02a374e https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/3c6d9d59ae5dfe3df35ca11b971d67a5.mp3?Expires=1787184000&Signature=LmwE7btVWO7kxagXZ2SRkd29IJ5xsWgpve6dwAaBRi4Yre%7Efua9IVJkGE5veYAgg-ZV9BLFX52NqKm2T3Fmx2sscqyne370YfBBzMfbPOZMf2wPOn2bacgSCO5O-lBi3GLXVtZ9ts6rNzsBz-vvAGrp5%7E7YlOKRehSOyteB%7EevghcQXXBAq7OQQwCS3XhKekhw8ofccggjtcsdxYgIWX9egw8fzSk0NDvvTRKoTuJsk55G%7EtXwKgrt9Obck6jgYAncEsESh7mnBGdzU7mp9wta5B8AtFfioLwqspFNE6fqNz4cQYR-547mGgCLkYwircGCUda9mfvSnSz4OpbWpicg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 584262c01dc99b9d24cf6c2cc1430ec3 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/e79c86aaa6e6f885dd6307f2fc0ff428.pdf?Expires=1787184000&Signature=r4W21hQvTdsGGvznDdbeA-FRW4jdVREL-gRW3e8qwCd60GEPHzcFbk6Lb8ZiTL8-Cw2jU23NTrWPaCa6VS15zsrWwNWHqaPcLWsATjEeK5rsSkdGgZYcJ6LRIMyiDvGndAQoLgtDksKmz5B4DNU-ensP5JsjNnuMd6wEo3DnYZHX53rq8c8ntiav1NlYVthJwCQN4IXUDzlopoZHVHDBx%7EsptMXE1gTpGdJbVwGTd3QD3v13P4WcDeJCAMXEtHYv9egkvJE2CraTJzUh6dREAHGt3x2lvaqTahX5CTB9Bd8-ujl7UJQkX465b6zI1UvOVRIKbG-YolYxZS9Ce5QJHQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 38665f0499689bf21955719f49d14101 PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland IMMR – Spring 2024 Instructor: Dr. Colleen Woods Interviewer’s Name: Kaitlyn Kim Interviewee’s Name: Victoria Truong Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Vietnam Interviewee’s Current Residence: Maryland, USA Date of Interview: April 5, 2024 Place of Interview: Maryland, USA Introduction: This interview between Victoria Truong and Kaitlyn Kim explore Truong’s personal experiences and perspectives on immigration, highlighting the adversity of leaving a communist country in search of a better life. Truong discussed her experiences as a Vietnamese refugee in the US throughout her childhood, young adulthood, and adult life. She shares stories about her family dynamics and her difficult upbringing due to her socioeconomic status. Her strong belief in freedom and opportunity explains her appreciativeness for America, and throughout the interview Truong reiterates how she is grateful for where she is today, despite all the hardships she has faced. Keywords: Vietnam, refugee, freedom, escape, fate, opportunity, family reunification, communism, Asia, language, parents Kaitlyn: Okay, it's starting to record can you state your — I'm starting, are you ready? Can you state your name and today's date? Victoria: My name is Victoria Truong. Today's date is April 5, 2024. Kaitlyn: Okay um. First question is, where did you immigrate from and how old were you? Victoria: I came from Vietnam. Um I was at age — hold on. Um age eight. Wait, I left the country at age seven. Kaitlyn: Okay. So you left at seven? Did you come here when you were eight? Victoria: To the US, 1981. Kaitlyn: Okay, and well, since you immigrated at a young age, can you tell me a little bit about growing up in Vietnam? �Victoria: My father had left or escaped it to America, in 1979? I was home with my mom at that time, um — with my two siblings, and um well, actually three, but my sister lives with my grandma. And then my mom had me and my two younger brothers. Kaitlyn: Okay, so you had siblings, do you remember like, if you guys did anything together, or your brothers, or like did you get to see your sister? Victoria: Um, no, because at the time my dad was in the – left the country for a better life, or to give us a better life, in America. And my mom raised us on her own for the time that my dad is gone. And we still um we kind of had an okay life because we were not too poor. But um, the country is communist. So everyone always want to leave the country. But I got to go to school and my brother and my two brother was younger, they didn't get to go to school. So I was probably in, like, kindergarten, back in Vietnam. Kaitlyn: Did your older sister get to go to school? Or was she older younger? Victoria: My sister was older but she was living with my grandma because she's mentally, uh epilepsy. So my grandma took care of her. My dad's mom took care of her. Kaitlyn: You also said that your dad escaped? What did you mean by that? Or can you talk a little bit more about that? Victoria: Okay. Um I said escape because you are not allowed to leave the country, at that time, because the country is communist. And if they find out you left the country um or catch you, you can get um jail time or even killed, in jail. So from what I know, from what my mom said was he left the country so that he can find a better place for us, or have more freedom so then he can sponsor us or help us get over. But at that time you were not allowed to sponsor straight from Vietnam. You either have to leave the country illegally, or um like to another country. Yeah. But we left the country, um after my dad was in the US, trying to get us over to the US. But you have to go through a lot of stages for that. For freedom. Kaitlyn: And I know you said that he left first. And I know you were young. How did you feel when he left? Victoria: I mean sad because I didn't have a dad. But I was still young, so I still have my mom. And my mom always tell me that we gonna be together soon. So I always think that I'm going to get to see my dad sooner or later, because at that time, they don't tell you — I'm telling you escape but at that time I doesn't know it’s an escape. I doesn't know that it's illegal. My mom always say my dad's like out of the country on a business trip, and soon we'll we will meet up with him. But after when we came to the US, that's when I realized that we actually escaped from Vietnam because we were boat people. We left the country by boat, and so did my dad. �Kaitlyn: So before you left, what kind of things did you do in preparation for leaving? Victoria: There is no preparation. You don't know between life and death, you don't know, if you're going to get caught by the communists, you don't know if um, you know, all you can do is leave quietly. So I would say the only preparation is that my dad has helped us because he left the country first. And he would send a map home to my uncle and mom, but in in little puzzle pieces, and they would have to put it together. Because if the government ever find out that you try to leave the country, um, that's a big punishment. You either go in jail or they would kill you at that time, and this was back in 1978-1979 after the war. So basically, you left the country in Vietnam, it's illegal, but when you go to other country it's not because they would take you in. Um you know, the country is communist and no one wants to stay in a communist country. Uh, so I mean there wasn't really a plan but I guess it was kind of planned out by my dad to help us in a way where we wouldn't get caught. So he sent the map in little puzzle pieces where my mom and my uncle had to put it together. And then my uncle's home already have a ship that was already, uh like for fishing. So they use the fishing ship as an escape ship, or a leaving ship out of the country to leave the country, and it was by water, like by the ocean that we have to leave. So, all I can remember was that we left that night and you're not allowed to make any noise. If the government or the communists catch you, um you're done. Kaitlyn: And I know we have stories in our family about like, you having a dog, um or things like that, do you remember like if you just left really abruptly or if there were other things you had to do before you left at night? Victoria: Um no, we just, from what I remember was my mom always told me we're visiting my grandmom. But we have to leave behind my dog. And I always ask her why at that time because I don't know that I'm leaving the country. All I know is that I'm going to go visit my grandmom, and then my grandmom is going to take us to my dad. And that's the story that was uh, told the people around so that you don't get or the government or the people around them get suspicious that you're trying to leave the country here. Um, so at that time, all I know as I'm going out to visit my grandmom and spend time with my cousins and you know, my uncles and my aunts and all that would be there. And which is true because all my grandma and uncles and aunts were on the ship. So all I can think of at that time was oh, we're gonna go see my dad now, um on his business trip or wherever he was. So for the time like I say, it was it was all kept secret by my mom because everything that was done cannot be known by the government, because you would get killed like I say or you would go to jail. And there'll be no way out for you if they ever catch you at that, in, back in those time of years. Kaitlyn: Then, okay. Do you remember how big the ship was? Or how many people were on it? And like, what your experience was like on the boat? �Victoria: [Chuckle] Yeah. So the ship is overflowing with people for safety. So it was hazardous. It's not enough food. Not enough water. Not enough. All I remember is the whole ship was crowded, and if there's a storm coming the ship can sink, in which it did happen the storm did come. But lucky we were saved by another ship when we were uh, out in the ocean. Um but at the beginning, when we travel at night like I say we have to leave at night, I always asked my mom, why can't we be loud and my little brother was a baby, he's only a couple months old. And he would cried. And my mom would have to hush him because if they can hear a baby crying, or if they catch us in any kind of way. So we take from a small little paddle boat out to the big ship. And from that big ship, we would leave. And that's a fishing ship. It's supposed to be for fishing, not for people, you know, like cruising or escaping or whatever it is. But there's so many people that want to leave the country at that time. Um, it was overcrowded, but we can't send them back because if we send them back, they would tell on us and we would all be caught. So there was some people on the boat that we don't even know and then there are some people in the boat that actually knows that they're going, which is our family. And so, when we travel, I think it was like almost three days before we reach the map where my dad has my mom and my uncle put together, that my dad has sent to the island where he was, and that was in Singapore. So a ship from Singapore saved us and we live in uh, those uh, what do you call that? Kinda like a home on the water. Uh I don't know what it's called by that time but it was like uh, it's not inside the country it's outside the country but the places they built for uh, people like us, would be immigrants to stay out until we get I guess kinda like, asylum. Um and then we get put in another country which is Indonesia: Galang 1 and Galang 2. Um, and we would stay there I think almost like a year before my dad actually sponsor us over to America. Then we left on the plane and flew over to America. But at that time we were on a big ship, American– I guess navy ship? I don't remember what kind of ship, but it was a U.S. ship that took us to Indonesia for asylum, I guess, until we um until we get into the country, legally. Sponsored by my dad. Kaitlyn: Okay so, just to be, or just to make sure. Like from what I studied, refugees stopped by, or many refugees stopped by a first destination as you were saying. So you stopped by Singapore first, and then you went to Indonesia? And then from Indonesia, you went on a ship to the US? Victoria: Yes. Kaitlyn: Okay, um I know you brought some pictures. Do you have any pictures from when you were in Indonesia and Singapore? And do you have any stories you can tell or remember from the time you were there for a year? Victoria: I don't have picture of us sailing on the ship, but I have pictures like, just like, where the island where we stay with my uncles and family that we took. Um, but I don't have like uh boat pictures because I guess my mom, um at that time doesn't really say or tell me because I was too little to know �that she actually like, we actually escaped the communist country. Um she wants us to just think that my dad is um sponsoring us over. But when I grown up, I realized that we were actually boat people. Like both people that escaped from Vietnam, from communist country over to America. For freedom. Kaitlyn: Can show me some of the pictures from when you were on the island? Victoria: Um yeah, I can show you like, like there's a temple, there's um of my mom and you know my little brother, and my sister, and my uncle, and her uncle, and my aunt um, right here. Kaitlyn: What is this picture? [Pointing at the photo she pulls out of an album] Victoria: This is in uh Galang 1 or Galang 2. Kaitlyn: And what were you guys doing here? Victoria: Um we were just taking pictures. We live in this uh country, for a while waiting from sponsorship from my dad, from America. Like saying like it's okay for us to come to the US, legally, um by plane. Kaitlyn: So you, wait. So you got — So you flew on a plane to America? Or you got on a boat to America? Victoria: No, We rode on a ship, a US ship, to America and that landed in Seattle, Washington. And then from Seattle, Washington, we flew over to DC. Kaitlyn: Okay, but okay. You're showing me this picture and– Victoria: This in Indonesia where we have to stay. Kaitlyn: Yes. Is this the temple you were talking about too or no? Victoria: Yes. Kaitlyn: Oh okay. Victoria: This is all– this is inside the temple in um, the island. Galang 1 or Galang 2, Indonesia. Part of Indo— it's an island in Indonesia. Kaitlyn: Okay. Do you have any other pictures? Or are these the only three? �Victoria: Those are the only three that's from the, from the island that we kept, I kept, that I have, of my mom and my grandma and my uncles. Most of my uncles are gone now or passed away. And so is my grandma. But that's, you know, the only picture that I have of them. I don't have a picture of um, I have pictures of my dad when I first came to America, with my grandma. That's like the first picture when we first came to America. [Shows image of family standing in front of a tree] Kaitlyn: And was this when you were in Seattle? Or was this is when you're in DC? Victoria: Um in Maryland. In Maryland. And yeah. [Flips through photo album] Kaitlyn: Okay, we can go back when we talk, or look at the pictures again, if we need to jog your memory or anything. Okay! So, do you remember, I think you said this already. But now we're going to talk about when you're in the US. But do you remember what year you arrived in the US and what your first impression of the United States was? I know you were really young. Victoria: So, we arrived, I remember as 1981. And I have here the um, the shot records for school. So, like you have to get all these immunizations before you're legally in school. So the date I have was the first um tetanus shot that I have was September 10, 1981. But I think I arrived here in January of '81. Or, or somewhere in around before school start. Kaitlyn: That's okay. We don't have to know the exact date, but just a general timeline. But yeah, back to my next question, the question that I asked though. I know you're really young you said you were like eight. Um but do you remember what you felt when you first came to the US? Or like, what you thought about it? Victoria: When I first came to the US, um, my dad pick us up in a green Camaro, I think it's a green like sport car. I think that's a Camaro, Chevrolet, whatever, sport car. And the seats were like [laughs] like holes in it. And you're, you know, it's illegal to sit with a lot of people in the back on a sport car. But there's like four of us and my mom, so there's five of us. So, I just think it's– I have all these memory where I don't want to say that we're poor, but we were immigrants so we're coming in as refugees. So we have green cards, um permanent resident alien they call us um from, we get all that paperwork done in Washington, Seattle. And then we got- flew over to Maryland where my dad actually was, at the time, and he sponsor us from there over here. Um, at once we got, you know into America. Um, so what I feel was like, oh wow, you know, like my first ride or anything in a car because we didn't have a car in Vietnam. We rode in like, motorcycles or you know um, if I go to school the neighbor would pick us up. And the neighbor came with us too to America, um, on the same boat. So the person who lived next to us came with us because I guess she knew that we're leaving Vietnam and we don't want to get in trouble by not, you know, like, she's like next door to us. �So we all say like, my mom's like, she tells us many different stories like where we're just visiting my Grandma, I'm going to see my dad, and all that. But when I first stepped to America, that's when I realized that my mom, um, wasn't lying, that I got to see my dad. But she actually came to tell us later on in life that, we actually escaped, we were both people arriving to America, as um, legal immigrant because we got sponsored in by my dad that was already here. Um— I don't know at that time, we lived in Riverdale. So the apartment, I mean everything is like, even if it's the poorest thing here in the US or the poorest neighborhood or whatever, to us it's uh, uh luxury. Because it's more than what we have back in the country. At that time, when you're a kid you don't, I don't know, I don't know any better except I know that I got to go to school. I got to ride in a car, even though the car's broken down [laughs]. I got to see my dad. Um, it was like, a happy moment. You know like for a kid who haven't seen you know, like your dad for two or three years. You're, you're happy. Kaitlyn: Yeah. Okay. Um, you know, so I wanted to ask you about– because you said you were happy and that it was better than, your living conditions were way better than in Vietnam, even though it might be considered poor over here. Can I ask you about how your parents made a living when they first came to the US and what they did? And did you ever have to help out, and stuff like that? Victoria: Umm, oh yeah. So back in the 80s um, minimum wage was like two dollars [laughs], and something per hour. So my, my dad worked as an assembly in a manufacturer. And then he got my mom to work in there. Um but when we first come over there, my mom didn't have a job until later. My dad was only working uh parent. So we get help from, I guess you call it welfare? And um you were on like food stamp? We were on food stamps for a while. We were on um, you know, the government helped us for awhile. And, but my dad also had an income where he had to go to work every day, supporting us. And I still remember um, I couldn't work because I was only eight. But I was still trying to help my mom like, we would dig through trash can for clothing. We would you know, like go to thrift stores. We're not, it's like, if you're talking about poor, I mean, that's I uh guess it's better than living in a communist country. Because they control you, but here it’s not really controlling. It's like you can find stuff in the trash can which you can't really find in Vietnam. But I didn't have to find stuff in Vietnam. Like I said, my mom, my dad came to the US first and he send like money home sometime to help out, and my mom works. So I was kind of living like an okay life. But if I think if I was to grow up my whole life in Vietnam I would have been in a more serious poor situation than the US. But even coming to the US in like, I say not like poor, maybe can poor consider to the people in America, but it's not poor consider to people in the communist country. Third World country. Um, so I would say like, we, we were doing like, finding cans. We would sell cans, we would, you know, to the Safeway store to get money here and there for like our candy or ice cream. We don't get the luxury of, you know, like kids nowadays, where whatever you want to eat you can just go out to the ice cream truck and buy. At that time, we would have to have, like, I would have to, you know, like, have the extra money to go buy. My dad wouldn't just, you know, take us to the ice cream truck and say here �[laughs], "this is your treat". Because money back then was real tight. But once my mom start working and then they work, they work hard, they worked their way up. And I guess we were in the apartment for awhile because, maybe like my parents came over, my mom came over '81. And my parent actually bought their first home in 1986. Before they bought their second home in 1991. So I mean, my parents was hard-working parents. And I would have to like, at that time you're not supposed to leave your kid at home [laughs], you know, illegally, but I was only eight and I have to watch my two siblings, and my sister. So that was kind of like, illegal, but that's what we have to do. You know like when you, you work um, your parent goes to work, and then you get stuck home and— my parent can't afford babysit. You know they don't have the money to babysit so we babysit each other. We looked after each other. So we would get in trouble all the time if something happened at home. Um, sometime my brother breaks the apartment door glass. Sometime it's like you know, like, c'mon now I'm only eight so I had to watch over like, my brother what, three years younger than five, five year old and a two year old um, of course they're not going to listen to me over my parents but both of my parents have to be at work. So yeah, I helped a lot out, it's kinda like, the older sibling took care of the younger sibling at a wrong age, but we made it through and we survived. And like I say the car, um, was a sport car. But there's six of us every time we go, we have to sit, like hiding on the floor, and hoping praying to God that we doesn't get caught by cop [laughs]. Because my dad would be in big trouble. But every time when we go somewhere it's always like nervous breakdown for my dad because if he gets pulled over, he's done. Like, with his license maybe, or suspended. But luckily, I am grateful for, like God blessed us because we never got caught in that green Camaro that he have, Chevrolet Camaro I think, that was the car. And that was the longest car time, before my dad can afford like another car. And even then we still–six people in a sedan [laughs]. So it's for, it's for a while, like until the kids actually grow up and get their own like, you know, money and work and stuff to help out. Um, so I mean, if you call babysitting one another taking care of helping out, yes. Picking up clothes from trash can, cans to sell to you know, yes. But, I would say that's probably the happiest moment. Because you get to be with your parents, and you get to be with your family [tears up]. Kaitlyn: And I know that you were talking about taking care of your brothers a lot and being with your parents. What about your sister? Was she there and were are you taking care of her too, or where was she? Victoria: So, we have two apartments. So my grandma helps out taking, um my sister at the time, because I guess my grandma was like still young, at that age, my age of eight. I mean, she was probably my parents age right now or younger. Younger than my parents age right now, which my mom right now is 74. My grandma is probably in her 50s or 60s. I don't know. But um, my grandma helped out. We all help out. We live in an apartment— Kaitlyn: You lived in two apartments? �Victoria: We lived in– uh yeah because my grandma have their own apartment, with my uncles and aunt. And then, my parents have us. It's a two bedroom apartment for six people. So the four of us would be in one room and then my parents would be in one room. Kaitlyn: So your sister was, your sister was there with you guys? Victoria: Yeah, during, during, like um nighttime. But daytime she would stay at my grandmom because it would be too much for me to take care because she's older than me, and then I have two smaller sibling, so I can only babysit my two brother. I can't babysit my older sister that's handicapped too because if something happened, I can't leave her, you know, because then, people probably get suspicious [laughs]. But yeah, like I say, we did most of the illegal stuff, like, not illegal, but like illegal as in your– it's kind of like babysitting. You're not allowed to stay home at certain age. You're not allowed to ride in a car without seatbelt. You know, those kinds of things. But otherwise, it's nothing else that's like, tremendous you call illegal. Kaitlyn: Right, okay. Yeah that's fine. I mean [laughs], I just, yeah. I also want to circle back because you said, you're talking about your family now and like your aunts or uncles are with you, grandma's with you, your mom, dad, your brother, your sister. What happened, whatever happened to that neighbor, that came with you? Victoria: Oh! So, we're boat people. So whoever sponsor you, whatever asylum you seek for, whoever sponsor you, so we all spread out to different state. There's some people in the boat that we don't know goes to different states that– I'm only eight. So I don't remember all of them. But I only remember that one neighbor because that one neighbor lived in Virginia. And it was near my dad, so they came in contact with my dad later. That's how I know that they are nearby us. But everyone else is spread out because whoever sponsor you in the US is where you go. It can be whatever state. Like I say, we were actually brought in by the ship to Washington, Seattle before my dad's sponsor us over to Maryland. From the plane—to live with him. Kaitlyn: Mhm. Okay! Yeah I just wanted to circle back on that but if she was in Virginia, do you know if she's still here and do you still talk to her anything? Victoria: Um, so she, my parent did have connection with them for awhile. But I guess after that everyone goes on their own way because you, you're busy in America, you're too busy for anything. You have your own life, you have your own family, and they're not, they're just our neighbor. They're not like family where we keep in touch. So maybe a couple time um they came, um to visit us, but that was about it. Kaitlyn: Okay! And, now I'm gonna start asking questions, I guess more focused on your adult experience, now that we've talked about your childhood and stuff. Um, so pivoting to this question, I �know that many people who migrate to the US often end up being translators for their parents in a new society. Was that your experience growing up? And I guess when did that start, if it was? Victoria: So [nervous laugh], that starts soon because my parents don't, didn't go to school here. So their English is— whatever I learned in school. I would have to talk to them in Vietnamese at home. So I would have to learn two language, um, to communicate, unlike my brother who can speak English later on and, and not have to worry about Vietnamese. But they still have to talk to my parent in somewhat Vietnamese, but not like the older– in Asia tradition the oldest always take care of the youngest. So it's more or more on me as a mirror image for my brother. So my parents always expect more from me. Um, my sister's mentally challenged so they can't expect anything from her. So I was kinda like, the route for my parents, if anything paperwork wise. Taking care of my sibling wise um. It's, it's a, I don't want to say it's a challenge for me but it's, it's a lot of things that you can't— it makes you grow up faster. So, maybe that makes me want my kid to grow up faster because I have that kind of trait, where I have to learn everything and do everything on my own. Um, learn everything quick, do everything quick, uh catch on to everything quick, because you have to survive in a country that is your second language. So, taking ESOL but I got out of ESOL quickly and that I end up helping ESOL kids, at times. Um, but all is, I know that if I have to do it, I am grateful and blessed that my dad had given us that opportunity, or you know, helping us to get here, and working his day off, hard, to get where we are. And it's like a lot of appreciation. If it wasn't for my dad, we wouldn't be in the US. We would be still in Vietnam, in the communist country and third world country. Where, if you really see the poor side of Vietnam, maybe that's where we would be right now but I'm not sure where we would be at. But I know that being grateful and appreciation, and even though it's suffering, for me as a child to pick up things or learning things, it's a will. It's like, I want to do it. At the same time, I don't think, I don't take it for granted like kids nowadays does, like things that kids have now. They take it for granted. We take everything in, not for granted. We take it in as a blessing, a gift, you know, something that God grant us. Kaitlyn: Okay, sounds like you had a lot of hardships growing up, but are so grateful for your experience in the US. So I guess, my next question is, since you had to do everything a lot on your own, and kind of be like, suffice for yourself, how did you make money when you're in the US, and when did that have to start, if you were helping your family out? Victoria: So I started working as soon as my minimum age was legal. Which is at that time, or back in time was 14 and 9 months. You can work like 20 hours per week. Um, so as soon as I was legal to work, I started working at McDonald's. And at that time it was $4.25 an hour. And every paycheck I would go give it to my mom. And that's when she bought our second home. Um, my mom at that time, my parents would use my name and I was only what [laughs]. 14 Something, I was on the mortgage with them, because I have an income coming in. Um, but it's like that's my first job and every penny earned is every penny you know you saved. Um, I started working at that age. I bought my own car! I got, I go pay for �my own tuition. So you work around where you save and you go to school and you try, you always try your hardest and your best when your second language is not your first language. Because—you have to um, I wouldn't say fight for your things but it's like you have to earn it, and you have to uh, uh work hard for it. So, it's not a day in my life where I just like lay back and say "oh, this is nothing", this is you know, every penny is something. Because when you have to pick things from a trash can or you know, selling cans or you know working at age 8, or doing all the work that you did to survive– you take everything and appreciate it. So [tears up], to me um, when I started working when I can is when I, when I can, and I do everything that I can [sniffles]. I try to get as many job as I can because, I just want to have, I guess a simple life. Or if I have a family and my holiday that my kids doesn't have to suffer of doing what I had to do. Kaitlyn: Okay, thank you for sharing that. Um, I guess on a more happier note. Now you started working at 14 and 9 months but that's also the same time you were in high school. And I know you also talked about paying for your tuition. Do you remember how you made friends here and what you liked to do together with them? Or do you remember any of those friends and who they were, and if they were still friends with them today? Victoria: Yes! Um, most of my friends, we stay in touch with uh Facebook. Um and I went out a couple time, I would say once or twice um. And I did go back and look for my high school, one of my best friend, um that's not Vietnamese, like Indian, but she moved. I don't know where she moved to. But her parents still live at the same house! One of my friend moved to Florida, in Miami. Her name is Nicole [...]. And there's a friend of mine that lives in Columbia, Maryland right now, in Howard County and his name is Matthew [...]. And then I have a David [...] that's in Virginia. A Joseph [...] in North Carolinayeah! We stay in touch, even though it doesn't seem or feel like we're still talking, but we do. We you know, text each other through Facebook or we comment things. We don't get, because like I say everyone have their own family and busy life. So if there's a chance, we might meet up one day all together, we might. But I can name you like Lavinia [...], that's here. Kaitlyn: [Laughs] That's okay, you don't have to name all of them! Victoria: Yeah, but they're the friends that you know, that's long, best friend or good friends because we still try to keep in touch. And they're my high school friends and they're my elementary school friends, um middle school friends. That we stay from elementary to middle school to high school, and through college. And then you know as you grow up, as I was growing up I meet like, one of my best friend, Diana [...], is from high school at High Point. And we still go eat, we still do things and I introduce like, you guys, my kids to her. Um and then I have college friend like Margaret [...] and Jane [...]. And then I have like– it's always good to have at least a close friend, you know, from [laughs] your younger ages. But I don't know if they have to come over the way I do but I know they're also immigrants, um, my college friends. And probably the same way that I did but maybe like [sniffles] not boat people but �maybe sponsor by plane. Um but I was one of the friends that came over by boat, by like seeking asylum um, and I worked my way up. Um you know, I don't want to say rags to riches because we're not rich but to be rich is uh, when you know that you have food on your table or when you have like you said, still hang around with your friends, or when you are grateful for everything you have. Kaitlyn: Okay [smiles]. Thank you for sharing that again. Do you remember, I know you were talking about your college friends, being immigrants as well. Do you think that shared experience is, is why you guys are friends? Or why you guys, do relate to them in any way? Victoria: Um, that's not why we became friends, but we learned from each other once we became friends that, you know like, when we talk, oh, "were you like sponsor here?" It's the same condition where like, you know, they would tell me, my college friend would tell me- oh, like my friend Jane [...], she would have to take care of her siblings. She have to work the same age I have to work. Or she would have to you know, help out her parents where you know, like on welfare and opening up restaurants and you know? Try to better ourselves. So it's kind of like make, it made us stay friends like best friends, probably forever. Uh because we have that kind of relationship, or that we can understand where we came from, uh, but I also have, like I said, like my friend, Nicole [...]. She always asked me to come over to Florida because that's where she is. Like, I was her friend and she's like uh, we have sleepover when we were kids. And um, it's not that I distance myself but it's like I don't have time in my life, or you know, like, maybe one day I will when my kids are older where I have time to myself to go visit all my friends that I tell you that I still, keep in touch with through Facebook or stuff, and go see. But um, my college friend is more closer as um. It's like we build relationship because we can understand our, I guess our life is more alike. And we all work hard to get where we are today. Kaitlyn: And, do you feel like, well, I know who they are, so I know they're both Asian. Do you feel like you were more like, I guess attracted to making friends with people since you're alike? And because they're Asian, or because they're Vietnamese? And it was easier for you guys to understand each other. Or was that not something that you're thinking about when you became friends with them? Victoria: Umm, no that was not something I think about because I have all kinds of friends, like my, my best uh elementary school friend. Uh her name was Lakisha [...]. And she's, we just um, when I move was like at that time, I was only what, sixth grader? So I lost contact, and when I tried to go back to the same house to visit when I was older, and she's gone. Like she moved. So we all move on our own ways. But, it's not because they're Asian that I stay close with. But it's the personality. It's the kind of like um, you know, like the understanding the environment, or you know, like when you're in college and you have a best friend or you do things. And it's like, I have uh I want to say not like, all color friends? You oh, you call it color people or whatever it is they call it now. But I have White friends, Black friends, Asian friends, you know. We don't, we don't, how would I say? Uh like nowadays racist this and racist that. We don't have those back in our days. We are all like together, we're you know like one. We play �with each other, there's no difference in how we become friends. But it's how, it's how we, our personality, our you know like, what we like as one another, how we feel. It's free. You know like, we're we were more open. We're not like, I don't want to say today is more or whatever it is. But uh, I want, and I don't know, like how I, like the question you asked me is like, I want to say that we're opened. We're, we love each other for who we are and what we do and how we can relate to each other. And how not just because of where we come from, but like our, you know like our personality. Kaitlyn: Yeah. No, I understand what you're saying. I just asked that question because like in my experience, like my friend who's Vietnamese, I can relate to her on more things and stuff. Because we're both Vietnamese because we have the same shared experience. So I go to her to talk about that. But I might not go to my other friends to talk about that. And it just sounded similar to what you were saying. Victoria: Mhm. Kaitlyn: Yeah. Okay [laughs]. But I guess on the same topic, did you think about your Vietnamese identity growing up a lot in the U.S.? And how did that influence like school, your work, your family, and your social life? Victoria: Um, so the funny thing is, back then, it's more of, you feel like you're a uh, what do you call that? There's a word I can't think of it. Um. Kaitlyn: Can you describe it? Victoria: Umm. Not. It's uh, it's kind of like you're a... oh my god, I can't think of the word. It's like, on paper, they always ask— a minority! Okay, so the word is minority. Um, so in school, we're minority, just like you know, every other minority. But the only thing I have problem was when I was a kid let's say back, if I have stories to tell, I have lots of story to tell. There's kid that picks on you that think no matter what, you're Vietnamese, you're Japanese, you're Chinese, you're Korean, you're whatever. The first thing they think in mind is you're Chinese. They don't care what kind of Asian or nationality or ethnic, or you know, you are. Um first come to mind, everyone thinks you're Chinese. They never once know I'm Vietnamese until I say I'm from Vietnam. Like, where they asked me, “where you're from?” That's when they'll know! But otherwise, they'll assume that I'm Chinese. And I guess because Chinese people came before, to the US, or have migrated here, um before us maybe? I'm not sure. Um but I don't feel any difference in school as for Vietnamese. But I know that it makes me, work harder study harder because I was fortunate to come to a country with freedom and with opportunities. Then a third world country, where I was told by my parents that if I was still there, I would be less of what I am today then, you know. Kaitlyn Kim: Mhm [nods]. �Victoria: When I'm- when I'm, you know, if I was still there. So, I don't know if that's how other people thinks, but I know that everyone– Oh, I can't speak for everyone. But the friends that I know and the friends that I have, work hard to get to where they are. Kaitlyn: So, I think that you answered the beginning of the question. Do you think about, or I know you were talking about like working hard and that's, even like if you were getting picked on and stuff, that just made you want to work harder. Do you think about your Vietnamese identity now? Like as an adult, or like, with your family, and things like that? Or not as often? Victoria: Um What do you mean? Like Vietnamese? Kaitlyn: Cause you talked about like, you have a lot of stories [laughs]. Victoria:Yeah! So for growing up as a Vietnamese, it's kind of like you're in the minority group. Kaitlyn: Okay. Victoria: Um, I mean, the chances you have is still the same. Like, let's say, example, if I go to apply for jobs, I probably get the same opportunity, as you know, any other, you know, nationality, you know? Nationality or races, or whatever it is. It's, it's like, you feel, I feel fortunate because I can speak two language. That I can you know, use that! It's America where everybody is here. Not just White, Black, Asian, you know um, whatever it is. You know it's like everyone is in the sameit's like- you don't- for me it's, I was taught not to differentiate yourself. You're no different, you're all the same. As long as you work hard and you have the mind to keep it, you shouldn't think less or more or whatever it is. You're, I guess, because the way my parents or my dad brought us up is, you always stay strong and you work for what you earn. You earn for what you work. You know? It's like you um— and I think this is how I teach my kid now too is like, you have to be strong because you have to be independent. You have to know how to take care of yourself. It doesn't matter the color, the race you are, the ethnic you are or whatever it is. It's you, your personality. You are yourself. So Vietnamese, or white, or whatever it is, I think I am, I'm probably the same way. Because I think it's how you were brought up, or how you're teached as a child is how you're going to grow up with yourself. Kaitlyn: Okay! So you were talking about how you raised your kids with these values and these morals. Is it or was it important for you, when you, like was it important for you to raise your kids with Vietnamese traditions and their culture then as well? Victoria: Um I would say, important, I wouldn't use the word important. But it's good if they know their culture because then they can know their background of where they came from. Um, t's like I would send my kids to school1, so they could know the language. Or you know like, or it's like, I want to teach 1 In reference to Vietnamese Language School �them some tradition. Um you know, like, just for because they're Vietnamese. Their skin, I mean, their skin color, their hair, it's- they're still Asian. As if they walk out in the street, people are gonna say they're Asian even though they're born here. You know what I'm saying? Um so, just because you're born here doesn't mean like, you know like, you're not an American. It's like some people think, like, just because of your skin, your color, that's who you are. But they have to think that we're in the U.S. We're united. It should be everybody. You know? So I think it's good that my kid knows the background of where they came from, like, for knowing that their grandparents are Vietnamese. Their parents are born in Vietnam, you know. They're born here and maybe their next- their child is going to be born here, or are they going to be mixtures of you know. But it's always good for a child, even myself, to know where you came, you actually came from, so that you know um, your ancestor. But you don't have to remember the bad things of your ancestors. Like for me, even though Vietnam was a communist country and I left the country because of it, I wouldn't think poorly of my country because hopefully one day they would change, you know. They would become a more united, like here. Or more open. So being Vietnamese is kind of like a good thing, and more opportunity, or with any kind of nationality you are. Once you get to the US it's like, opportunities are there for you. It's either you take it or not. Kaitlyn: Okay, um. That makes sense. I guess, my next question is, we were talking about how you want your kids to know where they came from, preserve their background. Was this something you thought about? Like when you were marrying, or dating people? Like was it important for you like in your early 20s, I guess or, in your dating life, to like, to be committed to marry someone else who was like Vietnamese? Or you also talked about, how like, that never mattered to you also. So maybe like, this wasn't even a thought in your head. Victoria: No, I strongly believe in fate. I always teach my kids that. And I tell you, your journey in life you never know who you're going to marry, who you're going to meet. And, you can say no, you can say you only marry White you can only marry Black, you can only marry Asian you can only you know whatever it is. But at the end of the day, you don't know that answer because it's your fate. And I truly believe in fate. And I truly- if you have faith, or if you believe in something and you have faith in it, God will grant it to you. So I believe that to me back then it's not all Asian that I dated, I dated black, I dated white, I dated um many. Uh, other, you say races, but it's my parent. So it started with my parents where, they would only want- because they were raised, I guess, in a like I said, in a communist third world country. But when I came here, I was eight. So basically, I was raised here in the US where it's united and open-minded. And for me, it's like, there's no difference. I don't see that. I don't see, you know, like all the commotion now about going back. Why are you going back when you supposed to go forward? You know why are you going back to like slavery and think— why are you putting those things in your kid's head? You know, like, you should be going forward to move up, to improve. You shouldn't go like backward, you know? So for me, I think it doesn't matter. And to me back then, if, if my fate wasn't to marry my husband right now, which is Vietnamese, maybe if my fate �was to marry somebody might be different like my brother. He marry, you know, a white German, mixed, you know? So you can't say that you have a preference. I believe in fate. Kaitlyn: Okay [chuckles]. UmVictoria: Because my parents would love for him to marry an Asian, you know, whatever background or whatever it is. Kaitlyn: Okay. So I guess, your parents impose those views on you but you didn't really care or you didn't likeVictoria: It's not that I don't care. I respect my parents thinking and thought. But again like I say, you can't control a person's personality. And you can't control a person's mind. You can give your opinions and thought. But if they're all fate that they have to deal with. And they would have to see that themselves. And I can't speak for everybody. Kaitlyn: Yeah. Victoria: I can only speak for myself. And that's why I tell you, I truly believe in fate and I see it where, if you want to be someone, or, you know, not to be successful or whatever it is. You got to have an open mind and you have to know that this world is not just you. You, you know um, I don't want to say that God didn't bring like different colors of people for no reason. There's a reason behind everything and I think that, for me, it's more important of being united being open, being like- you have to understand people's point of view. I mean you can have your own opinion but you have to like also listen to other people's opinion. Doesn't mean that you're wrong or they're wrong. And it doesn't mean you're right or they're right. It's just, if I had, if my fate was to marry another race, then I would've been marrying another race, right? Um, but I marry my husband right now. You just have to learn to make it, not make it through in life. But you have to just to learn, like, how to deal with things when it comes. Kaitlyn: Yeah. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I guess still being on the topic of family, can you talk a little bit more about your family? Like your kids and like, where you lived? And just share like your experience with having a family in the U.S.? Victoria: Hm. To me, I think family is everything. So family comes first. And I think I've always put that in my kid's head. I don't know, you know if they're going to understand it [laughs], but I always tell them that family comes first. And I want to say I try to work hard so that I have a family, with my kids growing up where- I don't want them to be in a situation where you know digging through the trash cans or stepping on cans and selling at Safeway. So, every parent's gonna want something better for their kids. Every parent. You know what I'm saying? So, my parent might be the whatever, of course, they want the best for us but like I say, again, fate brings you to where you are. So I try hard to make stuff for �my kids where they have everything. But sometimes it's hard because we started off as um you know, you can't help it when certain situation happen. So, when I try hard back then and then I bump into a few bumps, with my life or with my fate, or with my journey- I mean, I wasn't happy with my kid living in one room when they were like five or six, you know? So I try to get my own place. You always try to work hard because everything you do I think as a parent, or for me, family comes first. So as a parent I always try to make things more for my kid. And hopefully they understand one day. Maybe sometime I'm probably rough or tough on them. Or more protective, or more secure, or whatever it is. It's only because I want good things to come out for my kids. So, I don't know how to tell you like, I mean, no parent is a perfect parent, no kids are perfect kids. And again, things happen for a reason. So by, God forbids, I'm gonna go back and tell you that I strongly believe in fate, and wherever it meant for you to be or where you are, uh that's how it's gonna be. It's just like, for example, I have cancer, I thought my life was over maybe 10 years ago. Uh 11 years ago actually, 2013. But I pray and I asked you know to stay a little longer with my kids, at least to give them enough time to grow up or to understand things or to help them a little. And God granted that or, you know, the higher up granted or whoever it is, my guardian angel, or whoever it is that granted the wish. So, I always think if you have a strong value in family, it's how your kid's gonna become. If a kid doesn't have a strong family bond, then I think they might get lost somehow on their way with their journey. You know? So I think it's important for you, as parents, to understand your kid and for your kids understand you. And it's hard sometimes for kids to understand you because they're, they grow up quick now. You know, they— how would I say it? I guess, back then we didn't grow up as fast as kids nowadays. You know like, the world is growing with new technologies so things are of course gonna be more improved. I mean it's a good thing. But I don't think schools nowadays are teaching them. Like, in school. Like before, you have handwriting classes. You don't have that in school now. And I mean, technologies is a good thing but it's only how you raise your kid and how your kids takes it, to make it the best. Kaitlyn: Okay. I’m tryna think. I guess I know you're talking a lot about your beliefs and your thoughts on how you wanna raise your kids and that's really important. And I always like to hear that, obviously. But I also want to hear about I guess, just your experience, and like, growing up Vietnamese in America . And like, was Maryland the only place you stayed? Like can you share anything about like, what it's just like being an immigrant? Victoria: Um, I can tell you being an immigrant, coming to the US, is a long way. And that's some big dreams for some people. And for some people— I guess uh because U.S. is all known as you know, freedom. And everybody, I guess, not everybody, I don't know if everybody thinks this way but communism, where the you know everything's controlled, and you don't have that freedom. So when you come to a country with freedom, of course you're going to cherish it and appreciate it and are grateful for it. So, by being an immigrant coming to the US, for me, because I came at a young age, at eight. But I know my parents always, always, say to me or always tells me, "you better be grateful, you better thank God that I brought you here", or "we brought you here." Right? And, so, that's been in my head where I know that I better appreciate. But then I also learn on my own that you appreciate things �that you don't have. So, when I see like other immigrants, now that's trying to come into the US, illegally, um that makes me kind of, I wouldn't say mad, but I think is unfair where I- we have to work our way to come here, legally. Seeking asylum and doing it the proper way. Not just like running through the border or getting on a you know, like nowadays. It's a lot of changes. So, I would say that coming here to the US during my time, you're more grateful. And you're more blessed. And you're more thankful. I can't speak that for now where the immigrant just come in now illegally, because it makes the people that's been here, you know, where they have to obey the law and pass the law and get here, like during my time or after my time. We work hard. Kaitlyn: I just, I guess I'm just like... I'm like, I'm happy that you're sharing like how you feel about things and stuff. But I guess I was wondering about just your experience, like being in the US. And not like, what you think of the other immigrants, like your own experience. Because I just wanted to knowVictoria: Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. Like, if my own experienceKaitlyn: Yeah, like, so my question, I guess, was asking, like- basically, do you have any storiesbecause I know, you came to Maryland. Like I wanted to hear more maybe about like, did you move anywhere else? Victoria: Ohhh. Kaitlyn: Did you, like how was that? Like finding your way in the US being an immigrant and things like that? If you have any stories like that. Victoria: So when you when you grow up and learning your way, umKaitlyn: Like, was it just Maryland? LikeVictoria: No, it wasn't just Maryland. I mean, I've uh go to Minnesota. Um but that's, that's like, as an immigrant, you have to learn your way around and you have to like know. But that's like not from being an immigrant, moving to Minnesota. That's like, I moved to Minnesota because after I graduate, I have a job offer. Or you know like, being like, it's like, it's like I'm telling you like, like my friend, we move to different state. And some friends go back to their own state. Um, so when I graduated from college, I moved to Minnesota because I have a job offer. So it's like, you take the best offer and you work hard and you know for me, it's like, opportunities. So it's like opportunities open, you take it. And I don't know if other immigrants feel that way but any opportunity that comes their way, they're gonna appreciate it and they're going to take it and they're gonna um you know, like, live the best out of it. And so for me, I live in Maryland all my life since I was eight, until I graduated from college. Then I moved to Minnesota for about a good 10 years, and then I moved back to Maryland! So you always go back where you came from. Um not as in country, but as in like, you know, like your parents or your family, �are there. So my family was still in Maryland. I was only one that moved to Minnesota. But that again, I tell you is because it's from- I graduate and an opportunity opened. So I want to get the experience in my first job. Get the experience so I can have it on my resume. And then I can apply for work here in Maryland. And when I went back, I mean, I have my first child in Minnesota. And then I moved back here and have the rest of my three children here in Maryland. Um, so it's, it's like— I already left my own country as a child moving to the U.S. And then I left the state that I was raised in to move to another state. So that tells you there's a big difference because once, when I left my country, it was it was not a choice. It was I have to go for the better life, or better uh, living. Or better whatever it is, that you know, at that time my parents wanted for me. So when I left the state, I had a choice. I didn't have to move to Minnesota. But I chose it because of jobs, because of opportunity. So it's more of a like, in a sense of a way where I think, like, just in general, um, maybe that's from the same feeling or thinking where if I have an opportunity, I'm going to take it. Kaitlyn: Okay. That makes sense. And I guess like with that in mind and like, I feel like there's a theme of like opportunities, freedom, and like, what America has to offer. Do you have any plans for the future? Are you thinking about anything specifically? Victoria: Um— if I had a choice and if life let me live longer, um— I would take all the opportunity given. Like if, if I can open up my own business. Or you know, that's always been a dream, that I have my own you know, um, working or my own place, that I work for myself. Um, and same thing goes for, like I say, for my children. If you know, every parent's going to want their children to be better than them. So if there's if I, if I have the time and you know if I can, if I know the future, and have choices, I would take every opportunity there is. Because I know that America have a lot to offer. Opportunities and everything else that other country might not. And um, I would actually if, if I could, I would help the people back in my country because I was given that opportunity— to have a better life. And I probably would want my children one day to know that um, like you say freedom and opportunity, that they have, that they can go a long way sharing it. And I already see that with you, my oldest child, um doing it not just because of immigrant, but you know like um, you are not an immigrant but you share like, my cancer situation. Where you pass it on and you know, like helping other kids.2 So that's the same way I feel. I mean like with immigrant um, not every immigrant want their life to be that way. They, try to you know, everybody wants to have a better life. And everybody wants freedom. And everybody wants opportunity. And everyone, you know, I think. And some people are given that, they're given choices, where they have choices. And there's people that aren't given any choices, where they have to fight, uh for it. So, if I was given like, more time? I would help. It would make me feel more better if I can help people, to think or to know, or to understand that you know that being an immigrant isn't easy. Um, It's a lot of uh, a lot of work. Not work as in like you do work physically, but a lot of challenge and like mentally and physically. And uh, every, how would I tell you? I don't want to Kaitlyn is the director of UMD’s chapter of Kesem. It is a national non-profit that supports children who are impacted by their parent’s cancer. Victoria is referring to this organization when she is talking about her cancer experiencing and Kaitlyn passing on help. 2 �separate or make the difference between immigrant and non-immigrant, I just tell you, every human beings are gonna want the best for themselves. That's I mean, my opinion. Kaitlyn: Okay. Um, awesome. Well I know that I'm taking a lot of your time up [laughs]. So we're nearing the end of the interview. But I guess I have two last questions! First one is, I'm curious to why you were interested in this interview? And is there anything else you would like to share about your immigration experience. Or about being an immigrant? I know, we have stories in our family about like, the ice cream truck. Or like, you said that you wanted to start a business but I remember stories about like the cell phone business we had. Like, is there anything you want to share, that's left? Or, you don't have to if you don't want to. Victoria: Um yeah. Like I told you, I always wanted to have a business, but there's business that fails and there's business that you know- cell phone business was not really my business. It was my dad's. And my brother's. So I just help out. That wasn't really my business. So if I have my own business one day, it might not be a cell phone business. Um, it might be something, where, maybe charity? To help you know, the poor, or you know like to go to other country to support you know like, third world country. To help childrens like myself at that age, to have better schooling, you know, like, you don't have to go through the trash can to dig for stuff or stepping on cans and, and stuff like that. Or go working at an early age that, nowadays people call uh childKaitlyn: Labor? Victoria: Labor. So there's many things but you know, like, child labor can be good or bad because child. [Alarm rings and pause in recording] Victoria: So as I was saying, child labor can be good or bad. But you know, like sometime, if child labor is a will from the child, then it’s not bad. But if it's a force or if it's have to, then it's bad. But that's just an opinion again like I say. Like, but selling ice cream with my dad. That was my dad's business too. Ice cream truck. So I have to like help out working after school. Um, every day go sell ice cream until like eight-nine o'clock, come home and still have homework. That's like an Asian culture where I tell you back in the days, where from my parents’ generation, not my generation, but my parents’ generation. In Asia it's always, you respect the elder and whatever say goes. Right? So that's a communism country. But you know, like— I think in most country to not just Asia, uh because I have some um, Hispanic friends or co-workers that they say they always respect their elder. They never like dare to speak back or whatever it is. Um, but I don't know if it's every culture are like that. Like America is freedom. The kids can say whatever they want, or how they feel. Because again, the word is freedom. They have too much freedom. But it's, it's, it's, it's like how I would say like— if like, I can't express it to you. But I can tell you that, just be glad. I am glad that I have the opportunity, the freedom, and the will �to do what I want to do. And I was- and I am grateful and thankful, um that I was given that opportunity and freedom to do so um, by coming here, to the U.S. And I would want to pass that along to many generation after me, to know that um, or to teach my kid that um, or to let my kid know that it's not easy. From my parents to me, to their generation might be a little easier. But of course, that's what every parent want. It’s easier and easier for the next generation, right? But when it gets out of hand and control where um, when it gets too easy, I think the kids doesn't— take it in as uh, being grateful anymore. They don't appreciate things. I don't know if you understand what I'm saying. Like they don't appreciate things. You don't learn to appreciate things until it's too late. Or you don't learn to appreciate things unless it happens to you. So um, if I have, uh to do it all over again, coming to the US, as uh, I wouldn't regret it. Kaitlyn: Okay. Alright. WellVictoria: It's like an experience. Kaitlyn: Yeah, I don't really have any more questions. I guess my last one is, what was it like to share your story? Victoria: I'm glad that you asked me to be in this interview, because I like to share my story so that people know that, not every immigrant is bad, or not every immigrant is good. It's how that human being bring themself um like, here. Or bring themselves to be known. Or how they treat others and themself. It's like, I'm glad that I share that um, I'm glad that you offer me this interview because it's kinda like, I want to share my point of view as being an immigrant. It's not easy on an immigrant, um, because they have to learn second language first of all. Second of all, when they come, not everything is free. They have to work for it. Um, so it's like, it's not easy? But it's not hard because you're given the freedom and opportunity and there- I know that there are some people out there that take advantage of it. And um, and that are not grateful. But for me, as a Vietnamese, or raised child or Asian, you call it uh, raised by my parents generation. Uh, It's a lot harder than then the new generation these days. Because uh like I say, as each day we improve. You know, we learn, we expand. So— if you go back in the old days, I would say I like to share that. If you as a human being, love yourself, think yourself, believe in faith. Believe in, you know fate, and things happen for a reason, and be more open minded to things instead of closure, um then I think you would be okay. Uh, anywhere you go. Even like, you know, other country, not just the U.S. Kaitlyn: Okay. Well, I think that’s all I have. I’m gonna ask one more time if you wanna share anything else but other than that, yeah. Victoria: Um— I just wanna share that, I, like I told you um, you’re probably gonna hear it over and over again, that I think, I can’t speak for other immigrants but I know that we are all grateful and we are �blessed, and we love America. Uh because, we are given that freedom and opportunity to be here. And to grow ourself, and to make life better for our children. And I hope society, uh, doesn’t take any difference in what status you are or what nationality you are, or you know like uh, who you are. But like, they would take you know like, into consideration that we’re all humans. We all have blood running through us and that we all should love each other. Uh, you know, love doesn’t mean like, intimately or whatever it is. But like care, you know like, like if we, if we appreciate each other and work together I think this country will probably be the strongest country. Because it’s, it’s already there. But it’s just, it’s just getting, I don’t know. Ever since COVID, or ever since whatever it is, it’s uh, it’s like going backwards and not forward. Victoria: Um, so I would like to share that um[Pause in recording] Victoria: I guess in one short sentence, that I can say, that um, I’m happy and I’m grateful, and thankful for your interview. And to share my thought of um, of my stories, um it’s like if I go on with stories from a little kid until now, you gonna have many and I can have many. Um, but the one thing that I’m blessed is that, I’m here in the U.S. now and this is my country. Um it doesn’t matter, you know, you left your country for a reason. So when you’re in this country, you need to make this country, your country. You shouldn’t like um, separate, make separations of you know, you know “your country, my country.” If you, if you left, I believe one good thing is that I learned, is that if you’re gonna leave your country to come to another country, you need to appreciate that country that you’re in. And um, I guess that’s all I can say, for myself. I don’t know if other people might think that way, um but they should, because why are you gonna um, talk about the country that you left, right? Um the reason you left, because, that country wasn’t good for you. So you came here to the U.S., you migrate here to the U.S., you should be grateful and thankful, and make this your country. And I just hope that in the future, where my kids um, well you know, I’m just being honest. My kids, your kids, the new generation kids, is all in one and united. And I think just because you have black hair, or your skin color, or whatever it is, you were born here in this country. That means you are the U.S., you know citizen. You are an American. And I still think, until this day, I believe that many people still have separations, of whatever color, whatever your skin color is, whatever your races is, you’re different. And I believe that there is no different. And all in one say is that you’re human beings. And there’s blood in you. And I think everyone here should be united like it say, united, you know? One country. It’s many different color to be one. Not just White or Black or you know, Asian, or whatever it is. It’s all together. So— migrating to the U.S. is one of um, of many immigrant dreams. And I’m thankful for my dad for bringing me over. And I hope my kids are thankful that they’re born here, and realize that later too. That’s all I can say. Kaitlyn: Okay. Thank you! That was uh, that was, you said one short sentenceVictoria: Oh, sorry. �[Both laugh] Kaitlyn: No, I’m kidding. I’m just kidding, umVictoria: Well you have to combine that now because I’m not good with words. Kaitlyn: It’s okay. It’s okay. [Continues to laugh] Um, okay! Thank you for doing the interview. Love you! Victoria: Love you too. [hugging] Victoria: Thank you for having me. Kaitlyn: [Laughs] Okay, alright, that’s it! Nothing else right? Do you have anything else, or that’s it? [Laughs] Victoria: I don’t really have anything else. I’m just, I’m just grateful you asked me to interview and asked me, finally let my feelings out, andKaitlyn: Okay. Victoria: Telling you how I feel, you know. Kaitlyn: Yeah! Victoria: So thank you. Kaitlyn: That’s it then, alright. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kaitlyn Kim Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Victoria Truong Location The location of the interview Maryland, USA Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Victoria Truong Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kaitlyn Kim Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 5, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource This interview between Victoria Truong and Kaitlyn Kim explore Truong’s personal experiences and perspectives on immigration, highlighting the adversity of leaving a communist country in search of a better life. Truong discussed her experiences as a Vietnamese refugee in the US throughout her childhood, young adulthood, and adult life. She shares stories about her family dynamics and her difficult upbringing due to her socioeconomic status. Her strong belief in freedom and opportunity explains her appreciativeness for America, and throughout the interview Truong reiterates how she is grateful for where she is today, despite all the hardships she has faced. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR400 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Colleen Woods of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, mp4, jpeg Asia communism escape family reunification fate Freedom language Opportunity parents refugee Vietnam https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/f006ac2d9990bc30f4586c671ba56eb4.png?Expires=1787184000&Signature=PLgS46p%7E8ybJBgjvDqk2aYEr6a%7EK0FWJ115tefJiSsTHn2INwYYdzBu75f2I3p1CUUpbTEnCCQ-K-uByncC2i8piJpO663U0cSTQuIpZhwEfWxk8J9H55v5gpGmHeW8t5skBi8VEckHVfvpgiQjbcDNfQBGI8esGRYw310MNfsZQs4zUwF9dw-NpNVpqiPWHU4o-92d0CTiZWOMnFpjsr58RQb4p%7EAFf1QvVgcqwCSqCUm0jk6tSatDu9opZf5rDDnnspEDBCou4FhozzwauHFLAdk6e-O88mdzvJeZjY0%7ELF2td11dYb9gNVpV0YtYmsrn5Mt0BRaGxVdKzY7Ubmw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Bala Govindaraju Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vasanthi Kandsamy Location The location of the interview <span xml:lang="en-us" lang="en-us" class="TextRun SCXW171178747 BCX0"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW171178747 BCX0">Clarksville</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW171178747 BCX0">, Montgomery Country, Maryland, United States</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW171178747 BCX0"> </span> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vasanthi Kandsamy Description An account of the resource This interview between Bala Govindaraju and Vasanthi Kandsamy discusses Vasanthi’s experience growing up in India and migration to the United States. Vasanthi recounts her experience in the Indian educational system, family relationships, and labor migration. She also considers her racial-ethnic identification in India and the US. Vasanthi reflects on the difficulties communicating with family back home and family reunification. Throughout the discussion, Vasanthi shares how much had changed since her migration -- from the city side to increasing educated migrants moving to foreign countries for better opportunities. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR400 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Colleen Woods of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bala Govindaraju Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 7, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Dharmapuri education family India maryland visa work https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/8cca7d31e217957d9ddde97018b966dc.png?Expires=1787184000&Signature=gyQ474L70s%7EbIMpyvU3cKz6VgVVppNMxFV0siA8m37rsCfT0G61%7EQ%7ELH6-OWcP9jpAXTWrbwkQ1%7EaH2CRrW5JpQ0oOj8GCKcAUIyBQu88SsKmJO71smBTX9ZdPPWlUZSYYvdWMMF4ux1OMmuAW9B333Tcx%7EHNyf-9cH2n7pDF6lUHkOn6az8GL%7EVuZGWAWy3-lLqCsoaMObhLXK3-g0Aa4xKWBrlxmvO55-epjqqtZE%7EzbeqSe8%7EJElAyPLPdRKThTAgakE1LyK9w3HGyK6rwo%7Ek%7EvLttveLkIyrUR71jcS56P%7Ep5PI%7ET%7EA5ADq-yJISJgd8UtYtek3tl-QDrVuZSg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/2752c0eac564ebd3d5bcea2666dee46e.pdf?Expires=1787184000&Signature=fY97ygHn-V4c%7ENCBgl9vFDPL-lWSlUPUfogfYTUHm6ZyRX1sw-iMiQJ6aMJVj-TmQsHSxrK67PNtwZ6pANgfaUYxijdfRiFwxD0OI4pWqY86tr-DJFGHrhPbDsGaw3QMYABXBA8VPfA-vscDb%7EQHa9oIpM7mzA158d3K4uxZnycPoD-eRvopWYJkYMag6FzkOW2JwRE7sAhy9weo1T33O75ZY4fNG9YkF1eCOj5l8lLwQ1cztjy6Ly-Cjel7PGNwa9YC6wq48IXMEN30bUZGHnl0i93H3wxRJzpQV9UdsjkskWZ%7EY8nu8N%7E4-CsMcTWnUsYJ-Vz9wjaC5Ss9NXT37g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 1aa27daef38d4470f2448dc277fd02fe PDF Text Text Transcript of Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland IMMR400- Spring 2024 Instructor: Dr. Colleen Woods Interviewer’s Name: Claire O’Donnell Interviewee’s Name: Oleg Obolensky Interviewee’s County of Origin: Russia Interviewee’s Current Residence: Rockville, Montgomery Country, Maryland, United States Date of Interview: April 10, 2024 Place of Interview: In Person, College Park, Prince George’s County, Maryland, United States [via Voice Memo] Introduction: This interview between Claire O’Donnell and Oleg Obolensky discusses Oleg’s journey from Russia to the United States in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to complete postdoc research for one year on a J-1 visa. After he returned back to Russia, Oleg then traveled back to Pittsburgh to continue his research with an NSF NATO funded grant opportunity. In Pittsburgh, Oleg had his first son; then, he returned to Russia after one and a half years after his grant expired. After four months in Russia, Oleg moved to Frankfurt, Germany to work at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies. After remaining in Germany for a few years and having his second child, once Oleg’s first son reached school age, his family moved to permanently settle in Rockville, Maryland, where he currently works at the National Institute of Health. By mapping and sharing his immigration journey, Oleg describes assimilation into the United States compared to Germany and living through the collapse of the Soviet Union. Throughout this discussion, Oleg discusses how he received each work opportunity as being based on “luck”, presenting a theme of things happening to him by chance. Oleg’s story offers insights into how after the Fall of the Soviet Union, scientific collaboration between scientists in Russia, the United States, and Germany worked together to bridge research. In turn, these insights reveal how each scientific endeavor influenced Oleg’s immigration story. Keywords: Russia, Pittsburgh, Germany, Rockville, Physics, Science, Research, Opportunity, Soviet Union, Visa, Family �Claire: Thank you so much for agreeing to participate in this interview today. Before I begin, I would like to clarify that this interview will be recorded, transcribed and published in the Maryland Archive of Immigrant Voices. However, you have the option to have your name be omitted from the transcription and if you would like, you can read through the transcription yourself and request that certain information be left out of the published version after the interview. Would you like to be anonymous on the published version of this interview? Oleg: No. Claire: No? Okay, sounds good. Let's begin. So, thank you so much for agreeing to meet with me today and participate in this interview. Can we begin by having you state your name, age and tell me a little bit about yourself and your background? Oleg: My name is Oleg Obolensky, I’m 51 years old, uh (pause) no background? Claire: Like background? Oleg: Alright. I'm a (pause) staff scientist at the National Institute of Health. I'm educated as a theoretical physicist in, uh, St. Petersburg, Russia. And I worked as a theoretical physicist for many years and then at some point I came to the U.S. to be biophysicist. Claire: (pause) Thank you for that. So to begin, I would like to ask you questions about your childhood experiences and young adult life in Russia. So, I understand that you grew up in St. Petersburg. Can you tell me, um, about any stories that you have from your hometown? Oleg: Well, that's too general question. What kinds of stories? – Claire: – anything about growing up in that city, so like, what was it like for you? Anything like that? Anything you fondly remember? Oleg: Well, it was the typical Soviet large city. St. Petersburg is considered like the most, uh, educated, uh, and culture centered city in Russia. Uh, so it is an industrial city but it also has a lot of, uh, research and education, uh, centers and, uh, uh (pause) the citizens are proud to consider themselves, uh, culturally advanced – if you can say so – people. So, uh, so basically, if you don't take, uh, like suburbs where all the industry, uh, was located, you would end up with a lot of research institutions and uh people who were there were interested in, in culture, music theater, general, I don’t know, general knowledge, and that would be considered a cool thing to know about. �Claire: Can you expand a bit more on what like, so you mentioned there being a lot of culture, you mentioned theater and you mentioned art, and then you also mentioned industry being an important quality and it being a Soviet city. Could you expand a bit more on the culture aspect and then, like maybe later, talk about how it differentiates in like a Soviet city? Oleg: Well, Soviet city, I mean, it was typical for the time. Uh, the difference was that people there, uh, tend to pay more attention to culture, so as a kid, I was taken to theater and concerts regularly, even if I didn't want to (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) – Oleg: – uh, I didn't like Opera and [inaudible word] uh – the only thing I was, uh, so I was still not taken, not frequently, I resisted, but, uh, in the intermissions they would serve you like small sandwiches with caviar and uh like delicious sweets. So that was, (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) – Oleg: – I remember but I did like going to theater performances. It was both like for children and also like normal adult place– Claire: –Yeah. How often would you say that you went to these theater and opera performances? Oleg: Uh, I would say at least once a month, maybe more. Claire: That's cool. So, I was wondering if you could spend a bit more on what life was like growing up in the Soviet Union specifically. I know you mentioned a lot about like industry and that aspect of city life. Could you expand a bit more on that? Oleg: Well, industry, it was relatively high tech, uh, industry. So we lived, uh, actually across the street from a large plant called Svetlana and it was developing, uh, like, uh, optics, actually very high quality optics, which would be comparable to like, uh, [inaudible word] in Germany, and so they doing some space communication systems. And so my granddad worked in the Research Institute, uh, and they were also doing something, uh, related to, uh, communication, like regular electronic communication something, which I didn't understand and I suspect half of it was, uh, secret, so I don't know exactly what they were doing, but it was in some that direction. Claire: Interesting. So you mentioned, was that your father or your grandparents? Oleg: That was my maternal granddad. �Claire: Okay, cool. Um, how did your family and people around you discuss things, um, like the Soviet Union and things like that? And particularly, like, the fall of the Soviet Union, as well? Do you remember any like distinct things that shifted or anything? Oleg: Uh, well, I was too young, I just didn't know like, overheard what adults would say. Yeah. So my impression was that, uh, before the Perestroika1, 1985, uh, like late years for Brezhnev2, and then he was replaced by, uh, I forgot the name. There were like two old guys between him and Gorbachev3. One was KGB chief4 on drop off and there was some, also old but more like progressive, guy, but they were both very short lived. Anyway, so before that real fall of the Soviet Union, before Perestroika, my recollections were that people would tend to be, uh, moderately critical of the current, uh, political structure, uh, they could not imagine what else can be in place of the current structure, but they would criticize inefficiencies, uh, like, I don’t know, there were shortages of certain stuff in the stores, uh, there were inefficiencies of how schools are run, roads are bad, and so forth, so, and that the governance structure was that uh you have like, regular administrative uh government structure, like basically Mayor office and you have then some municipal, uh, entities, and they should take care of everyday stuff, garbage collection, what not. And then you had party, Communist Party, which would oversee that. So, in principle, you could go if you are not happy how your garbage is collected, then you would go to this municipal, uh, uh, government and say, I don't know, the garbage people don't do their job properly. So if it doesn't help, then you go to the party. And then the party would somehow apply pressure to make it, uh, better. So people could not imagine that it can be somehow different. And the criticism was mainly, uh, pointed at, you know, it's those small, everyday, uh, annoyances. And then, after Perestroika, it is, it was becoming quite rapidly worse and worse and people would complain that Perestroika led to collapse of a great state where people leave typically had no big problems at least, and now everything is just falling apart. And it was getting worse and worse. And the, uh, the worst time was like beginning of 90s. Claire: Okay. So, you said the beginning of 90s was when people were starting to complain that things were getting worse and worse – 1 During Perestroika, Mikhail Gorbachev attempted to reduce the influence of the Communist party in the Soviet Union by decentralizing power from communist leadership and re-directing these authorities towards local control. Although Gorbachev’s policies failed and deprived him of a political power base due to the Soviet Union’s corrupted economy, Perestroika led to increasing public revelations about the Soviet Party, inciting nationalist and independence movements inside and outside of the U.S.S.R. 2 Lenoid Brezhnev was the General Secretary of the Soviet Union from 1980-1982. Brezhnev’s leadership is remembered for improving the Soviet Union’s national standing while also stabilizing the position of his ruling party. 3 Mikhail Gorbachev was the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1985-91, serving as president of Russia in 1990-91. Under his policies of Perestroika, his efforts led to the fall of communism in Russia. 4 The KGB was the Committee for State Security in the Soviet Union, responsible for foreign intelligence and domestic security agencies. �Oleg: – No, they would start after Perestroika. First of all, some of, some of them were conservative and they didn't like change. They would say what he's doing, uh, uh, he would, uh, destroy the relatively well functioning system, uh, why at all he needs to do that and so forth. Other, so, but most people would welcome that because they wanted, uh, uh, some kind of democracy. So they wanted that, uh, you know, in the newspapers in Soviet times, it was like a cryptic code. So you always had more or less the same, uh, headlines, same contents of the paper and the difference were on, in various small nuances and people will read that and they will try to deduce what's going on based on change of adjectives (pause) if it is like (pause) “brilliant” or “just talented.” (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) Interesting. So you mentioned a lot about how like, like, “they believed” or like “they said.” Um, how old were you during this time period? And like, how did you form this perception of like, what was going on around you? Or was this understanding more like things you picked up later on in life? Oleg: Uh, Well, I was, at the beginning of Perestroika, I was 12. Uh, and, um, my parents would invite relatives and friends from time to time, and they would, uh, sit, you know, at the table, eat and discuss stuff and I would go around and I had nothing else to do. Uh. Some of my uncles would play with me in, uh, table soccer or something like that. Table hockey. Uh, so I was like, in the same room. So we had only two rooms, one was my bedroom and my sister's bedroom, we were in the same room. Uh, and the other room was like a bigger room, it was parents room and living room together. So we didn't have a separate living room. So we've had just two rooms like you what would call it here, one bedroom. Claire: Okay. That's a great point to sort of segway into more like talking about your family. I was wondering if you could talk a bit more about your family. Um, what was your family dynamic like growing up? Oleg: (sigh) (pause) Well it was a normal family. (laughs) I had, uh, my both parents worked. Uh, My dad, well, my dad, uh, by education he was uh an architect (pause). Architect and like civil engineer or something like that. So he would work uh like normal, regular hours, nine to five. When I was very little he worked, uh, in relatively unusual place, he was, I don't know how it's called, he was like, uh, person responsible for all the engineering parts of big, one of the most famous Russian theaters, actually. So he wouldn't do any, you know, uh anything connected to the place, performances, but he will do all this, uh, technical support, like how you get smoke on the scene, and if they need something to fall down, how you do that safely, and so forth. So how everything functions. Uh, but later on he, but, still, I was too young, I don't remember that much. But later on, he would work from nine to five, he went to the, uh, like, it was called Institute – I �don't know you will not call it institute here – It was some organization which did, uh, architectural development for the whole city. So they would design buildings, they had architects, engineers, whatever, and they would do the whole cycle, like all the utilities you need for that building, they will calculate how much you need to work from where to take the water, electricity, they will design the building and so forth. My mom was, uh, school teacher and she worked more or less irregular hours, so she would go to school in the morning, and then she could stay on and off if she had some events there, like teacher parents meetings or she would come home early but then she would check homework. I had an older sister, five and a half years, who I fought a lot, but loved. Uh, so [inaudible phrase], I think we lived pretty happily. My grandparents lived in the same city and, uh, whenever I was sick, my parents would drive me, actually we took a taxi, maybe drove sometimes, I remember both ways actually. They would just send me to my grandparents and I would stay there for a week while I was sick. Maybe half the time, not every time maybe, but sometimes (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) Thank you for sharing that, um, well growing up did you have any close friends around you? What were they like? Oleg: I have a childhood friend whom I befriended, well uh, you know what dacha is? So in the 1960s, maybe late 50s, uh, government decided first that, uh, agricultural, uh, sector of Soviet economy was not doing well enough, not efficient enough. So they wanted first to get some extra source of uh food for the population. Plus, they wanted uh people to have something to do in their spare time, rather than you know, think about democracy (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) – Oleg: – but this is like later reconstruction, but the fact is that in starting from late 50s, maybe early 60s, they will, started giving away parcels of land to whoever wanted them and usually it was done through the organizations where people worked. So my granddad, uh, institute got a parcel of land, and distributed it among the people who were there. So my granddad, uh, got a piece of land and they built a house there, and it was like summer residence. So, especially in the beginning, it was prohibited to build like two stories building, it should be only one story, and they tried to discourage people from staying, uh, like in the winter months, so it was supposed to be only like from spring to the fall, and, uh, later it became looser enforced, uh, but, uh, so we had like a small house and we would come there every summer. And I, uh, I found a friend, uh, when I was, I don't know, five, six years old. So we would meet every summer we would spend there two three months, like from from the early till the night, uh, and at that time, people didn't, uh, try to control the whereabouts of their children as much as they do now, so the only thing I needed was to show up a dinner (laughs) say Mom, I'm still alive (laughs) Give me some food. Sometimes we will do even like eat together, so I will not come home. I will eat at my friend's �house. Uh, so we will just spend two months relatively freely, so that was the best time of my whole year at that time. Claire: That sounds really nice. How did you, like your relationships with family and also friendships, change as you began to like grow up into your young adult years? Oleg: (pause) I don’t know. Claire: You don’t know? Oleg: Nothing changed. Claire: Okay. Um, so, at what age did you first decide to immigrate to the United States? Oleg: Let's see. (pause) 36, I guess. Claire: 36? Oleg: Yes. Claire: Okay, um, so what did you like, what did you do after like you graduated high school and everything like before you decided to move to the United States? Oleg: Well, since, as I told you, we lived in a, uh, part of the city which was like highly educated, It was unthinkable not to go to university. So the only question was, uh, which one? And, uh, at that time, you could not apply to different universities. You should pick one. Submit your documents there, then, uh, you should hold exams, and then you are either admitted or not. So if you're not, then it's kind of catastrophe. Because, uh, first of all, it's unthinkable not to go to school and second, uh, it happens right after school and then, uh, then if you are not at the university, then you are conscript so you automatically go to the army, which nobody wanted. Claire: So to clarify, if you didn't get into university you’d automatically – Oleg: – then you're 18 years old, and uh, (pause) so, uh, the only reason for you not to be drafted, was to be at the university or work for some, uh, like military establishment. So if you didn't get into university then you may want it doesn't matter. Okay. So you are 18 years old. And this is full, and you're drafted. Claire: Okay. So what did you decide to study? �Oleg: Well, I wanted to study physics all my life. Claire: Why physics? Oleg: Because I wanted to know how things work. My, I, think it's influence of my granddad, uh, who would read with me, uh, like science, popular books about mathematics and physics. And they were quite entertaining. And, uh, I like them. Uh, and I don't know, since age five, I remember that I wanted to be a physicist, uh, that's because between our house and my grandparents house there was a bus route, uh, number 38, I still remember, and the, the endpoint uh of this route was Youth institute, which I later realized it was actually only like, off campus location, not main campus, but still on this, uh, tablet where you have this uh route number, one of the endpoints was this Youth Institute. And I remember I was five years old, I was going home from my grandparents, I’d remember this plate and I told my uh, that, I don't remember who was there, and I said, when I grew up, I will work in this Youth Institute and turned out I did (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) So what is that Institute? Like, what do you, what did you do? What did they do? Oleg: It is a part of Russian Academy of Sciences. And it does research. Uh, nowadays, it is mostly solid state and like semiconductor physics. Claire: So why do you think, like, that sign, like spoke to you at age five? Oleg: I don't know. (Pause) Well, I remember I asked what it is they told me, this is a good known, known, well known physical institution. And I said okay, I will work there. Claire: So kind of jumping forward a little bit. I'd like to transition to discuss more about your first immigration to the United States. You said you were 36, um – Oleg: – No. I did not immigrate to the United States. I was a postdoc. Claire: Postdoc? Oleg: Yeah, so I, uh, so I finished, uh high school. I went to, uh, university. Uh, and it's like here when you are in high school years, you already thinking about what university you would choose. Here you have some flexibility, there you are in a much more restricted situation. So you have to think even harder. So finally, we found a school, which had, uh, deep, uh, like deeper physics curriculum and it was connected to electrotechnical university. And (pause) I, I had to change schools, so I had to take a bus to get to the school, it wasn't, so, uh, in Russia, there are �no school buses. So you just, but there are more schools than here. They're smaller, but there are, there are more of them. Claire: Okay. Oleg: So you would just, uh, usually you have to walk to school it's I don't know two blocks three blocks away, at most. But I switched the school and I had to take bus and that school had this physics program and they had their graduates like better prepared and they had connections to that, uh, Institute. And then (pause), when I was in that school, I found out that, uh, at that university where I was going to live. That I actually don't remember clearly, maybe it was I knew about this, but I think it was, maybe I was just lucky. So when, at that school, and when we started going to that university like for after hours classes and some extra curriculum activities, I found out that there is one group, uh, (pause) which is based at this Youth Institute, so which is like attached to that Youth Institute. So it was like, uh, department which was organized by, at the time, not but now he's a Nobel Prize winner, Zhores Alferov who was head of the department there and since he was young scientist, he wanted to raise students to become scientists from like very early stage. So he organized this department at that university, electrotechnical university, and they will try to get the most, uh, uh, like promising students and they would, and who want to be scientists, and they will educate them at that department. So I learned that there is such a department And I, uh, uh, I signed up and I was chosen, uh, for that department and then we would start like uhh dividing our time between the regular university and this Youth Institute. So we would have regular classes like philosophy, history, P.E., whatever at the main university but all our, uh, major related classes were at the youth institute. Claire: Okay. Oleg: So we would spend – I don't know – three day there and two days at the University. Claire: Okay. Oleg: So I started working at the Youth Institute, like trying to do research since I was like a third year student, maybe even before that. Yeah, well, we started going there like from our first year, but first three years, but first I remember, so my friends at the University he had, his uncle, was quite famous physicist who created u, he was experimentalist, he created uh uh um (pause) scientific waves for uh transient industry in soviet union,you know, peinjunctions, LED, you know, led (pause) LED lights, pointed, you know whatever you have in city, players, everywhere, whatever you see in red spot now it can be blue or green. So, this is radiational in your remote control. This is, uh, radiation emitted when electrons go through, uh, the connection of two different materials to uh, different semiconductors so when they go through that, uh, junction they make light. It can be red light, it can be infrared light, your remote, uh, but uh, that �guy he created, uh, this, uh like he was, uh, scientific advisor when, uh, in Soviet Union they started semiconductor industry. So he put us, uh, uh, in a lab from our first year, but the only tasks we were trusted to was doing securital aux. I remember it was our project, it was a two story lab, big lab, and they wanted to open the door, uh, not going down but, uh, so we did the wiring and all the stuff, but since third year we started doing more, uh, science, like real science. And, uh, we were, uh, like, immersed into these activities. So I knew all the scientists in our department and after I graduated from the university, I went to what you would call a Ph. D program. And at that time I worked, uh, uh, I mean like a normal scientist already. And, uh, after you do your Ph. D, you, uh, it's normal to do a postdoc. So since I was working in a group there, uh, and we had collaborators all over the world, uh, my Russian boss knew a guy from Pittsburgh who worked in the similar, like, complementary direction. So he was working in, uh, studying a phenomenon called Bremsstrahlung.5 It's a radiation emitted by, uh, any charged particles when they bend their trajectory. And, uh, in Soviet Union, there was a guy who discovered that this standard radiation can be complemented by another type of radiation which is also branch strong, but the origin of this, not the accelerating particles, but the atoms in, uh, which create the field in which those, uh, particles travel. So that was like complimentary things about the same basically physical phenomenon, but taking them from different ends, like different subjects in the same, uh, picture. So they sent me to Pittsburgh as a postdoc, to like, bridge the gap, to try to build something which would be like unifying concept, uh, unifying formalism describing this, so I was going there for one year and then it was not like, I wanted to immigrate. Claire: Yeah. It was like a temporary – Oleg: – yeah, it was like a postdoc position. Claire: Did you have like uh, a temporary work status to gain permission to live in the United States or like – Oleg: – uh – Claire: – do you remember – Oleg: – the first time we went there, I was on J-1 Visa6, which is a scientific exchange. Uh, in principle, it requires you to return to your home country and spend at least two years there. Claire: Okay. So to clarify, it's like one year in Pittsburgh and then you go back to, for two years. 5 Bremsstrahlung is electromagnetic radiation that occurs when a charged particle decelerates due to deflection by another charged particle. During this process, the moving particle loses kinetic energy, which is converted into radiation. 6 J-1 exchange visitor visa for educational and cultural exchange programs that are designated by the Department of State, Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs. �Oleg: Uh, it's supposed to work that way. It, it, there are loopholes, and I know people who somehow waived this J-1 one requirement, but on the other hand, where I work now there is a guy, uh, Leonardo. He had to return to his home country and spend their two years, even though, like scientific director of our institution wrote to USCIS7 asking this to be waived, but still didn't work. Claire: So, just to continue on with that timeline, so you went to Pittsburgh – Oleg: – so we went to Pittsburgh in 2000. Uh, originally, it was for one year and we started working, and my scientific supervisor was, uh, relatively happy with me. So he actually offered me to, uh, switch my position from this visiting, whatever it is called fellow something. And I said no, we want to go home. We agreed. Uh, but he couldn't find any suitable candidate to replace me. So we had to stay there longer. So instead of one year, we spent, stayed there, year and a half, maybe. Claire: Year and a half. Okay. Were you, um, like, how did you feel about this movement process? Like did you want to go back to Russia or do you want to stay in the United States? Like, how did you feel at the time about, like these moves and everything? Oleg: Uh, well, I was excited to, to work in a different country in different environment in different culture, because I only knew Soviet research culture. And it was very interesting to see how people work, uh, in the United States. Claire: What are some of the differences you noticed? Right away and then also like reflecting on your work now? Oleg: Uh, here people are more polite. So, they would, even if they see that, you are, you are completely wrong. And, uh, whatever you are doing is complete bullshit. They will not tell you that. Uh, they will just keep silent, they will say okay, and uh, yeah, they will not even try it later on to approach you well, some of them who would but, uh, only if they like know you. If it is a complete stranger and he tells me something wrong, I wouldn't argue. I would just keep, I would say to myself, forget about it, it's like, wasting two hours for this seminar. In Russia is much more direct and aggressive, so they would start arguing with the speaker. And sometimes it's even counterproductive. For, I don't know if a speaker devoted one month saying that this assumption and that assumption, uh, hold, and then the person who comes to a seminar listens to that first time, he starts arguing that those assumptions don't hold. And, uh, you know, the person said, you know, I studied this and I know this, (laughs), it's true. Uh, but, so in a sense, it is more, 7 USCIS is the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services. This is a government organization that oversees aspects of immigration related to obtaining citizenship and VISA status. �uh, (pause), it is more direct interaction in Russia than here. On the other hand, uh, (pause) on the other hand, people here (pause) probably, uh (pause), eh, so, on average, so average person here would (pause) spend more (pause) time working. Uh, (pause) no, so, you know, it's not, you know, apple to apple comparisons.Where I worked with there was like a place for fanatics. So people there would come to work with I don't know, with, uh, fire in their eyes, and they want to do that and they will. I myself, like slept in the office on put together chairs because I didn't want to spend time going home even though I lived like 15 minutes away. Uh, so those people would work harder than the average Western scientist, but there are people who would come like, two days a week for, I don't know, for several hours, just to you know, be around the scene and they will leave and they will not care about anything. Claire: Hm. Interesting. Oleg: But I don't think it's comparable. It's different time, different place. Different culture. Claire: Yeah, definitely. Could you talk a bit more about like, the culture of the United States that surprised you outside of your work environment. Like is there anything, I know it's not like super comparable, it's very different, but any like shocks or surprises? [Section of transcript cut out as someone came into the room to try to use the space] Oleg: Uh, I’m trying to recall, so you interested in that moment, what I felt then? Claire: Yeah, yeah. Oleg: Well, so we lived in Pittsburgh, and it was, uh, so University of Pittsburgh, it's like in the middle of the city. It is like a university area, and there are two universities: Pittsburgh University and Carnegie Mellon. They're very close. Uh, but still, it is a city. It's not like UMD here, where you have your own campus, and nobody else here. So there it was mixed. So it was kind of city but with a lot of students and, uh, teachers and researchers. And I think what struck me at that time is– it was, um (pause) so we had a lot of like (pause), uh a lot of people (pause) feeling not free, but (pause) like relaxing, like chilling out. So people would go into restaurants; we would go to a restaurant. We had group meetings at a restaurant every week. Uh, students would like sit on the grass, uh in the park. There was like a botanical garden and, uh, we saw a lot of students there like, some of them studying, probably like here, now. Claire: Yeah, very similar. Oleg: Yeah. And it was not typical at all for us. So, uh, in Russia, they were in Soviet Union. Well, it was Russia already, but still it was like, Soviet based, uh, reality. So people would not go �to restaurants that often. Uh, if they study they would study at home or in the library (pause). If you want to party with party at home, if you want to play with your friends, you would go, you wouldn't, you wouldn't do that just on campus. So you could see people like sitting on the benches and doing nothing but they will just wait till the next, uh, uh, we call it pairs. So we had like a 1.5, two 45 minutes joined, lessons, like 45 minutes, 5 break, and then 45, and then sometimes the lecture will not even make the break. And we had like them, uh, sequential, so we will have three or four such pairs and very rarely you would have like an empty pair. Then you would like, you would have one hour and 45 minutes free and then you will probably go to, we also had like a botanical garden across the street. But it wasn't typical and I would, I wouldn't go there, I would find some quiet place and do something. Yeah, so here I felt it's more like, like relaxed. Maybe. Claire: Did you know English prior to coming here or did you learn it when you came here? ` Oleg: (pause) Well, technically, I knew English, but, uh, I could not speak. Well, I could say something. But I could not understand people at all. So whatever they were saying, it was complete music to me. I couldn't, uh, figure out where one word ends and the next one starts. So it was like continuous (pause) because we didn't just have, so all our English studies, it was, uh, more or less theoretical. So we never watched movies, uh, in school, we never talk to real people, so it was only textbooks and we will read so I, I had relatively, (pause) relatively high level, so I could build more or less complicated phrases, sentences, but, uh, understanding was almost zero. Claire: Did that ever influence like your work aspect? Like when you first came here for your postdoc or like anything about navigating the city or anything like that? Oleg: Yeah, of course. Uh, sometimes, so my advisor was, he is a quite generous and kind man and he tried to help us. So he put us in his house. Claire: Oh, that’s nice. Oleg: He would, uh, he would do group meetings at a restaurant and he would pay for that. Uh, and he tried to give us tips on what to see, how to get there. Uh, but I remember many times when he would advise us to do something. And then, uh, when we started doing that, we realized that actually it's not like he, we thought told us and then it turned out that we just misunderstood him. Claire: Hm. That's interesting. How fast were you able to pick up the language then? Like, when do you feel like you were fully, like, able to learn how to understand people better? �Oleg: I still don't understand people sometimes. I cannot understand, uh, any songs which I hear on the radio. I can pick up a few words here and there, but, and then in American, or I don’t know, English music is completely different from Russian. So here you have very, well, I don't know about rap and such stuff, but even regular songs like pop music, they have very complicated sentences with no rhymes and, uh, so there are some, but it is very hard to do that. So Russian music is much simpler. So you have, uh, all your, you have rhymes, certainly. And then all your words would fit into music very, very easily. So they complement each other much better. It's much simpler. Claire: That makes sense. Oleg: So I still don't understand and when southern people talk I also understand 30% (laughs). Claire: (laughs) that’s fair. Um, I was wondering if you could, like extending the timeline a little bit more so, you came here for postdoc and then you went back to Russia after like a year and a half – Oleg: – Mhm – Claire: – when did you come back here again? Oleg: Ah. Yeah. So we went, (pause) actually, it was my wife who wanted to return, so for her there was no question that we coming back because she's very attached to her family. And I was more flexible. I didn't care much. I didn't like, really wanted to stay. Claire: She wanted to return to Russia? Oleg: She wanted to return to Russia, and I was more or less ambivalent and I would say we can stay here, we can go home. Don't care much. Uh, so we returned home and then, uh, (pause) I returned to my work and, uh, we had a group of people, uh, and we were more or less friends. And once I came, a guy at work told me, you know that (pause) so (pause) well here you have to apply for grants. Uh, so we had like stable salary, but if you want to go to a conference, if you want to buy some extra equipment or even if you want to increase your salary, you have to apply for grants. Uh, so it was like I don't know, I arrived like one week ago and I'm in our office and we shared an office. Uh, there were like three of us. Uh, and he told me, you know that, uh, now it's close to deadline for grant application for NSF NATO award and it's only two pages and, uh, basically they only look at your achievements and recommendations. So you don't have to go into details about your scientific program or project you're gonna work. So it was, uh, in bureaucratic terms, it was quite easy. So you have to describe your achievements, people you want to work with, and your like, the general idea of your project. And, uh, that’s it, like two �pages maybe. And he said, Why don't you apply for that? And since I just came, and I said why? And he said they will give you money and then the chances are very, very little, very small, because they give out only 20 awards per year for all, uh, fields. It's like science and arts and everything. But he said, uh, you have to play many stage games so you’ll win in one of them. So he said just do two pages, ask your professor Pratt to write your recommendation letter. And I did that and I did not expect that I would get it. So it wasn't like planned. Yeah, I didn't think I would get– the chances were, uh, almost zero– but somehow I got this grant and then, uh, once I get it, of course, why not use it? Yeah. So it took us, uh, so we came back in 2001. (pause) I think it’s like, took us a year for this project to be approved, and then all this bureaucracy stuff. So I think we came back to the US after one year, like in the late 2002. Claire: Okay. Where did you move to in the U.S.? Did you go back to Pittsburgh or somewhere else? Oleg: Yes. So, since it was– the project– a continuation of what I was doing in Pittsburgh, and Professor Pratt wrote me a recommendation letter and some of his friends. So it was, of course like, natural to go there. Claire: Yeah. Makes sense. Um, how did you feel about moving back to the United States? Oleg: Uh, I did like the idea. So, uh, so while we were here for the first time, as I mentioned, Professor Pratt, was very generous and kind and he helped us a lot and he would organize for us all sorts of things that we enjoyed staying here. So, for example, if we had a conference, he would arrange that we would rent a car, and then we would drive, and the conference could be in Texas for example. So we will drive, uh, in that car from here, well from Pittsburgh, to Texas or to Colorado or whatever. And, uh, (pause) he will say don't rush. Take your time drive carefully. You'll look at whatever you find on the way and then uh, when, when we wanted to travel, like we bought an old car and he would let me go like for one weekend. We would drive to Florida. So, I knew that can get a lot of interest and stuff. And I knew the guy and I liked him. I still like him a lot. So I was – Claire: – You were excited? – Oleg: – Yes. Claire: That's cool. Um, how long were you in Pittsburgh for this grant project? Oleg: Uh, again, one year and a half. Claire: About a year and a half. What did you decide to do after that? �Oleg: Uh, at that time, well, we decided to return to Russia. Uh, at that time, uh, my son was born, uh, and actually, so my project was for one year, so I got decent money, $42,600. It was grant for everything. So that was my salary. And it was, so my salary was like $30,000 and then I had $12,000 for conferences and stuff. And that was much more than I had when I was a postdoc. So when I was a postdoc, uh, so they, at the University of Pittsburgh, they had some, uh, fixed stipends. I don't know how they call it, (pause), uh, like fellowships, and it was, I don't know, like $10,000 a year. And I, when I, just, uh, when we were discussing it before we went, I asked some of my friends who, so my, uh, few of my, uh, school friends emigrated and I asked them, so what do you think, can we live off 10,000? And they say, Absolutely not. So anyway, I asked them to increase and they, I think the best they could do was $12,000 a year. And there were two of us. And it was quite hard. So we, had I remember, we were buying this bread for 67 cents in giant, which is like was the cheapest one and you could, you know, press it into a small bowl. And we would eat, uh, ground meat, like with pasta all day long, because it was the cheapest. Uh, but still, and then I will get more money and it was for one year. Uh, but then, my son was born and he was very young. (pause) So he was born in November. Yeah. So, uh, he was born in November. So, he basically was born when my grant, uh, expired. Yeah. So we asked for an extension, and, uh, the NSF, or NATO, probably it was NSF, so they said you can extend but we will not give you more money. So, uh, my professor had to come up with some, uh, financing. But we still are grateful to him [the professor] because he [the son] was very, uh, young. And we didn't want to travel with our newborn child. So we stayed till May 2004Claire: – Okay – Oleg: – No. Four, yes. Claire: And then you went to Russia. Oleg: So we went back to Russia. Claire: Okay. How long were you in Russia then? Oleg: Uh, I personally was in Russia for (pause) four months? It was 2000, it was 2004. So we came in, like in May, (pause), uh, and I got sick, and I got into, uh, these hospitals specialized in infectious diseases. And they couldn't figure out what with me and I stayed there for three weeks or so. Uh, and then I returned to work and I didn't like it a bit. Not, not the work but like – Claire: – the environment? �Oleg: Yeah, so I got used to American style of life. And when I came back, I didn't like all these Russian realities. Uh, ao I wasn't quite happy. And then in, uh, August 2004, uh, head of my Russian group, so he was collaborating with many people, I mean, our group, so we had like joint, uh, research projects. So one of the research directions was connected to Pittsburgh, but the other one was connected with, uh, research of, uh, Walter Greiner8, and he's actually very famous nuclear physicist who predicted, uh, super heavy nuclear to be stable. So all this, uh, acceleration experiments, where people collide, uh, heavy nuclei, what they try to achieve, they want to check if his prediction. So, you, is correct. So what you have, so our Mendeleev table, you have, uh, elements from one hydrogen and then you go to, I don't know, 90s, where you have very heavy elements and they become unstable. So when you have uranium, plutonium, they are radioactive and they spontaneously decay. So you cannot have them, uh, for a long time. So they have, their not nuclear are not stable. And if you go to even higher the decay even faster. So if your uranium can, depending on the isotope, uh, some of them stable, but some of them are not. If you go to higher, you cannot find anything. So people achieved, look at 107, highest charge of the nucleus, but it was very short lived when they collide in the in the, uh, collider particles, if you go to higher, so what he predicted that, then you can reach an island of stability. So if you go to like 130, then those, uh, elements will be stable. So he was quite famous because of this work. And he was influential enough to, uh, start a new institute. So he worked at Goethe University in Frankfurt, uh, and uh, he wanted to start a new institution, which would be like partially affiliated with University of Frankfurt, but partially independent. And he joined forces with another guy, who I don't know, he, I don't even remember his name. He's like neuro, neurosurgeon and neuroscientist, something with the brains. So they study how brains work and our guy was nuclear physicist. So those two guys, uh, they both like were famous. And they wanted to create like, Interdisciplinary Research Center. And they started what they call Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies. And they were like recruiting people for that institution. And since our group collaborated with Walter Greiner, he invited my, uh, group leader Andrei Soloviev, to be research fellow, which is basically like full professor there. And he said, uh, suggest me a couple of like low ranking people who we put in right. So, uh, Andre called me– he was in Frankfurt at the time– he called me and said, we are doing this, would you like to join us? Uh, and I said Yes. And it was like very, very early stages. So, there was no even director. They were just like founding fathers, but no administrative stuff. So she said, you can come, uh if you are interested. So I went to Frankfurt and it was like, end of August to beginning of September 2004. So I spent like four months in Russia. Claire: Okay. How long did you stay in Frankfurt after that, and what type of work were you doing there? Because it was such an institution. 8 Walter Greiner was a German theoretical physicist, who spent time researching atomic physics, nuclear physics, and elementary particle physics; he studied physics at the University of Frankfurt and became an assistant professor at the University of Maryland from 1962 to 1964. �Oleg: Uh, well there we actually continued what would they have started working on while I'm on while I was in the U.S., so they started doing cluster research, okay. So a cluster is a collection of several atoms, but it is not a molecule, so you can have, I don’t know, an alcohol molecule which you might be aware of like CT, C2H5OH.9 So this is like chemical molecule where your atoms are bound by chemical bonds. Clusters, it's when you have, uh, a collection of atoms that may be bigger than molecules, smaller than molecules, but they are not, uh, chemical molecules in traditional sense, you can have I don't know 10 sodium atoms together. So it is not a molecule. It's just like a small clump of matter. And at that time, it was relatively fashionable direction, people tried to understand how you go from, uh, atoms to solids to bulk properties, atoms and bulk properties, even if the same element if you if you have sodium, sodium atom, or sodium two, which is like natural molecule, chemical molecule, uh, have completely different, not completely but quite different, uh, properties and bulk sodium, uh, and they wanted to see what goes in between and at that time, technology, uh, developed, so that people were able to create such clumps of matter. So we were, and they started doing that, and when I came back from the U.S., I like I joined the group, and I started doing that and we continue doing that in Frankfurt. Claire: How did you like Germany? What did you think of it? Oleg: I loved Germany. Claire: You loved Germany? Oleg: Yes. I like that they have such a perfect order in everything. Claire: Mhm. What do you mean by that? Oleg: Everything, I mean, public transportation, all buses, uh, spotless. They go by minute. They, uh, the streets are cleaned. People are organized. If they tell you 2pm, it is 2pm. Uh, in the offices, they, I mean, they keep their stuff organized. I mean, it's (pause) so everything is very well oiled and organized. And, uh, aesthetically, it's also beautiful and I, it’s very old and I like history. So I liked it very much. Claire: Yeah, that's cool. Did your, um, wife and kid come with you as well when he went to Germany? Oleg: Uh, not initially. So I went alone, just to see what’s, what’s going on. If it is indeed, will be finally implemented.We did not have, so the building was still under construction. So we worked in the university. And at some point we had to move, uh, so it was not clear what's going on. And 9 C2H5OH is the compound for Ethanol, which is a volatile, flammable, colorless liquid. �we just came from the U.S. My son was very young. So it was not, uh, an option for us to go three of us. Claire: Yeah. When did they end up moving to Germany with you? Oleg: I think, so I went like August to September. Then I came back for the New Years. (pause) And I think then I returned, to Frankfurt, and then I came back for them. So I think it was like March 2005. Claire: Okay. That makes sense. Um, How did, like, what was it like moving a family to Germany, now? Like now that you have a kid. Oled: (pause) Uh (pause) I don't remember any particular difficulties. Uh, my wife was very easygoing. She does not collect stuff. She's not attached to stuff and she’s uh, she can do with what she have, what she has. So it wasn't a problem. I rented an apartment, uh, and now I don't remember about furniture. (pause) Uh, we had, yeah, I got, I think from IKEA, one bed. We had one small table. One chair. And then I think that’s it. Yeah, the second room was completely empty. Claire: Um, How long were you in Germany? Oleg: Until end of 2007. Claire: Okay. Where did you go after that? Oleg: We went directly to the U.S. Claire: Okay. And this was when you moved to Rockville? Oleg: Mhm. Claire: Why did you decide to move to rockville? Oleg: Because (pause) at that time (pause) by the end of 2006, sometime after a couple of years in Germany, we understood that (pause) it is very difficult to assimilate. So it's all good. Everything's fine, but you are an outsider, and uh you’re gonna stay an outsider. There is no way you will be accepted into that culture. German culture. Yes. So that was one reason so, if, but it wasn't, like a really urgent reason.The other reason was that my son was growing up. And we started thinking where we want him to grow up. And we had basically three options. We could go back to Russia and raise him as a standard Russian kid. We could raise him in Germany, �because I had basically job, uh, stability and it was developing well so there was no, uh, reason for us to be afraid that we would need to find something else in Germany, so I would work there 10 more years and should not be a problem. Uh, so that was the second option. And the third option was to go back to the U.S. and uh, since he was born in the U.S., so he is a citizen. So the third option was to raise him as a U.S. kid. Since he already is a citizen, so why not? And we decided which country and culture would be better for him. (pause) And since we felt, in Germany, that we will not be assimilated. And, uh, (pause) yeah, he was like closing to the school age and he didn't speak German and so we decided that it is either Russia or U.S. and we chose U.S. Claire: Why did you prefer the U.S. over Russia? Oleg: We felt that, I felt that, there he will have more opportunities and the quality of life is certainly higher. So I saw that if we can do that we should at least try. Claire: Was your wife, like, in support of that decision? Or was she when you worked with her? Oleg: Uh, she was ambivalent. So she wanted to go back to be with the family. Uh, on the other hand, she saw that, indeed maybe, uh, so, I think I pushed for the more – Claire: – to go to the U.S.? Oleg: Yeah, so I was telling her, let's go if I can find job in the U.S.. Let's go there for a few years. Uh, he will learn English, he wouldn't be a native speaker. Uh, he will grow up a little. Maybe we will get green cards and then we will have freedom to move between the countries as we wish. And then we decide later, do we want to stay in the U.S. or go back to Russia? Claire: Okay, that makes sense. And you had your second son in Germany, right? Oleg: Right. Claire: Okay. So how was his citizen status, like played into this? Did he have Russian citizenship or – Oleg: – he had Russian citizenship, he did not have German citizenship. Claire: Okay, so Germany doesn't have birthright citizenship? Oleg: No, they don't. And it would require many years for him to acquire German citizenship. �Claire: Okay, interesting. Um, so how did you find a job in the United States that would like lead you to? Oleg: Ah, I'm just a very lucky person. (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) – Oleg: Completely randomly. I mean, uh, I have a group mate, uh, my one of, maybe my best friend, we were in, so in Russia, you don't do as you do here, everybody takes their own class and then everybody takes different classes, so we had the concept of groups, where you have a certain number of people, usually like 20, and then they would go together to everything. Claire: Yeah. Oleg: (pause) I don't even think we had any subjects for choice. So we couldn't choose anything I think. So it was pre programmed. Claire: Yeah. Oleg: So we would like see the same people six, eight hours a day for five years. Claire: Yeah. Oleg: So this girl, uh, she started, uh, studying in another university and then she transferred to us and she got into our group and we just befriended, uh, she was (pause) no, yeah, so she came in this in the second year. So she, uh (pause), she got married and then she divorced, and then she moved to the U.S. not even finishing up University in Russia. Of course, her mom works here. She works at NIST, or she worked at NIST, I don't know where she works now. Uh, so she, she went to UMD I think. Claire: Okay. Oleg: (pause) and she, they lived here, in, uh, in Bethesda, near Montgomery Mall. So I just called her and I said, Masha, do you know any opportunities somewhere in the US? Uh, and I actually was thinking about even changing my career into, uh, into IT. Cause, uh, so, it was, everything was fine at work. But it was very, uh, intense. Yeah. So it was very competitive, uh, so we have had this, our group leader who like he was like, full professor, and I was like, uh, one step below him. And then we got, I don't know, seven, uh, graduate student and like, four postdocs, and we had visiting scientists and, uh, it was very hard, I worked a lot, cause, so, I had to help him with all these grant proposals, uh, all this, like, social net, not social, like scientific �networkings, so I had to prepare a draft for him to send letters to different scientists. Uh, and I would be involved in organizing like, seminars and conferences. So we invited people from all over the Europe and from the US, so he wanted to be on the map. So he wanted to have a lot of communications with other groups abroad, so everybody knows him, he is like in the network. So we had to organize a lot of events. Uh, so I was doing this more or less administrative stuff. But on the other hand, I had to, uh, oversee all our students and do work myself. And when you oversee work with student, you have to not just see what he or she is doing, you sometimes need to help or even do it yourself. So I was doing like three jobs for myself for students and this and it was very hard. Uh, so I even had doubts if I wanted to continue in science, and I was like playing with this idea of why not go to IT field where money is better and work is simpler. Yeah. So my friend, Masha told me, so she has, uh, she has a friend who was married to a guy who works who worked where I work now. And, uh, she said, let me ask Tatiana, maybe Lesha may help you. So this guy, send me coordinates of this person who hires, uh, uh, uh actually, IT guys so this is mostly IT. So, we, uh, our institution mostly maintains updates and whatever, various medical databases, so they need a lot of programmers. Claire: Yeah. Oleg: So he's, she, so that guy who worked there, send me the, uh, coordinates of that guy who is overseeing, who was overseeing, hiring. And he said we hire all the time, just email him and ask if you have anything. So I emailed him and he responded to me and he send me like a questionnaire like with different programming tasks. And since I'm not an educated coder, so I did, wrote a lot of codes but scientific codes, so I was mainly interested in efficiency in terms of the, uh, how you calculate, say integrals numerically without losing precision and fast, and maybe you can come up with another method where you don't have to do it at all, maybe you can approximate it somehow. So I was coding, but it was a completely different type of coding. So she sent me this questionnaire very with coding questions like, I don't know how better memory is allocated in code A or code B, and why. (pause) So I tried to reply and, uh, I sent it. I now understand that I was completely below level, whatever, (laughs) possibly even couldn't even hope for that. But since I submitted my application, the questionnaire was probably unsatisfactory. He didn't tell me of course, the guy. But my resume caught the eye of my current principal investigator who is a physicist by education. And we are probably the only one group doing physics at that place. And he was looking for people with exactly my qualifications, so he wanted, um, quantum calculations, quantum mechanics, and uh, since it was like, submitted in and then it was like, standard procedure when they distributed, he saw my resume and he, uh, called me, we did, uh, phone interview. Then he invited me to come here for in-person interview, and then we moved. Claire: Thank you for sharing that. Um, so you haven't gone back since, like you stayed since you moved to rockville, here? �Oleg: Yeah, so we went directly from Frankfurt to Rockville. Claire: Okay, cool. Um, how was, so you mentioned that a simulation in Germany was, like, harder. Um, would you say that it's easier in the United States or like, how were you able to form a community here? Oleg: Well, it's not harder in Germany than in the United States. It all depends on the, uh, on your group. On your, uh, professor or principal investigator, yeah. So there in Germany we were trying to establish a name. So we will completely over the grid and we tried to emerge as an advanced group doing advanced stuff. And to do that you have to work very hard. Yeah. Uh, here it is more relaxed. It is government and you have job security. Uh, and there is no point in, uh, you know trying to organize a conference, because first it is the government it is not possible to do basically, resolve the bureaucracy. (laughs) Second, there is no point, if you need to talk to your colleagues, you can go to some conference and talk to them there so you don't have to push for visibility. Claire: Okay, that makes sense. How was it able, like socially, to make friends here, like were you able to form communities in any way? Oleg: (Pause) Well, here it was relatively easy. Uh, (pause) So say in Pittsburgh, we befriended a Secretary at the Department who knew our professor for a very long time, she was his personal secretary for a while. Uh, so she was invited to all our group events, so we befriended her and one guy in the group. And that was basically it. Uh, we met few Russians in Pittsburgh, while I was working too much and there was basically no time. In Frankfort, it was very similar. I actually again befriended the Secretary of the Department. (laughs) But just because, uh, I was alone, uh, and again, I was, especially first months. Yeah. And she was a German lady she was like 50 years old. And she was very punctual. And she would show up at work, like 6:55 in the morning, and I had nothing else to do and I wanted to do some science, so I would come to work also like around seven, and we would, uh, intersect like near coffee machine. And, uh, she would help me with Germany, like with sketching around and knowing what to do, where to buy things, and that developed into a friendship. But again, no locals. Yeah, but when we moved to Frank–, to Rockville here, we had two kids, and we went to all these, you know, kids' places like the playground. I don't know, like gyms. And then you have a lot of parents. And while kids are playing you stay with parents and you're forced to communicate. So this way, we did acquire some friends, and we could even pick and choose which ones we wanted. (laughs) – Claire: – (laughs) That makes sense. I guess, thinking now on like, how long you've lived in Rockville? Do you have any like, thoughts on living so close to DC or anything or like, how like, that experience is? I guess. �Oleg: That's I don't understand what – Claire: – (laughs) I’m just gonna skip that question that’s not making any sense. Um, do you have any plans for the future regarding where you live? Do you think you'll stay here? Could you ever see yourself moving back to Russia or anywhere else? Oleg: (pause) Probably not, probably not. So we got settled in here, uh, so probably will just stay here. Claire: Yeah, that makes sense. Um, I think that kind of concludes everything. I don't want to keep you too long. Um, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you today. Is there anything else you would like to share with me about your story or experience? – Oleg: – No, If you have any questions which you think like later on, you realize that it would have been nice, nice to ask him, you still can do that. Claire: Okay, thank you so much. Oleg: No problem. � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/eb2a48c683258cf5545caa74f1a8c010.mp3?Expires=1787184000&Signature=rPr3ItvewlsWEX7yOhIimBot1XfkDxCp2k0vaSKIEYWXVh86vvKNnNrxcbcnAmL2rDA3CfpGOFJV4kcIyxBgzd7IWJ3XtHf%7EuOyuvfq1JZg5o-UKS0GawQ8FnTJUsGsnt-V7tkyk%7Er2hDtMrDW3dHZuFoR3CedQc8pOxuR77k6tX7Wu4LAZJ2Gk-aUtd0y8zgxYRKSXhh7n9I2mZ3DWI6%7EkPGbbsM9Hc2R%7EZvSjdayzwYXeaouX3spjKJtrU1iQmLorTfoZzKMYMmpBDK8UMJoa2BDQhBTEYJ8i3Xi1KRCnfKdPjuAoRVkGcDMuxw-vOVex0VrbAtHwae%7EZyfec3ig__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 80b7fa32bbb7eaf1dfb327ce8c898deb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2024 Interviews Description An account of the resource Spring 2024 Interviews from Prof. Colleen Woods (IMMR400) and Prof. Anne Rush (HIST 465) at the University of Maryland. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Claire O’Donnell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Oleg Obolensky Location The location of the interview Rockville, Montgomery Country, Maryland, United States Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Oleg Obolensky Description An account of the resource This interview between Claire O’Donnell and Oleg Obolensky discusses Oleg’s journey from Russia to the United States in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to complete postdoc research for one year on a J-1 visa. After he returned back to Russia, Oleg then traveled back to Pittsburgh to continue his research with an NSF NATO funded grant opportunity. In Pittsburgh, Oleg had his first son; then, he returned to Russia after one and a half years after his grant expired. After four months in Russia, Oleg moved to Frankfurt, Germany to work at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies. After remaining in Germany for a few years and having his second child, once Oleg’s first son reached school age, his family moved to permanently settle in Rockville, Maryland, where he currently works at the National Institute of Health. By mapping and sharing his immigration journey, Oleg describes assimilation into the United States compared to Germany and living through the collapse of the Soviet Union. Throughout this discussion, Oleg discusses how he received each work opportunity as being based on “luck”, presenting a theme of things happening to him by chance. Oleg’s story offers insights into how after the Fall of the Soviet Union, scientific collaboration between scientists in Russia, the United States, and Germany worked together to bridge research. In turn, these insights reveal how each scientific endeavor influenced Oleg’s immigration story. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course IMMR400 (Spring 2024). This course was led by Professor Colleen Woods of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Claire O’Donnell Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 10, 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Marjorie Antonio Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF, jpeg family Germany Opportunity Physics Pittsburgh Research Rockville Russia science Soviet Union visa https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/3ee4c9af88da9fa80aec53e102fa6ecf.jpg?Expires=1787184000&Signature=pFhPFoaNgfMkQ2erkbNszQqPjBctD4fieDSguY8iFddUKt0-t1yzMgMWwAkwb5mMVoQIgfLHmRDgOcsYVatacC%7EbrKHs0lTU1Y-6vddBcTdlvf3hEoAu3AEhev1T85QDm2ew8WHZGOrVDCFMLrdmJkbzrYsuD9qk%7E1AmWki%7ErfIzN5ejZNj04UVZ4Kx1TCtJq%7EJs%7ERgiww15dvJL5mdCnMX%7EoLctCLFJeVF90F3H9PMFSAF4A02VUb7j6h-CD6h2bAHAqU1cEltFCV6P5YpgGCxpql1-qv-AfbGoxY5ApxaSma8S0W6O6xbQ4vMQuJ3VPIaBcfgJE7g-QOXrMhkzKQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM e98666e6979aaa1d79475efd3d4bcc1c https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/f73df764ec52e32c06cfcde3181ab0ed.pdf?Expires=1787184000&Signature=g6XxRjGz-0tbNTmzkwKLr8Jf5w6lGfQqJ6sBRdz55T07IPljSd39UFRG8P3VlbkBbAhTs25gleHSg-q7r-mfUHeXDuBTeg68cY25LfEofrbbmFF6QoB-iTEMAc-5zXVWUTOLl0TDNpLc5KEUUS4jXjlN3%7EBfNXo9JviGL2gPT%7EjTUPwg39HKS%7EP1tMUaHTQTKXUGtRJ%7ELGPNKaDdHuiHI26gMK0%7E3DaQRZ6fuX4CSqXpU0SkFItQJgJK-fMEOn9IbZaa-p%7E2sIK6fwLcOOuTDck4qCWYY5Xd0KbcnF5BLo-vi6BA-IYacSzbf5BApbAC2C5V2l30SrFr2b2WomdeMA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 40c1e7812fbb7cbd39e595e5ded52233 PDF Text Text Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course HIST465– Spring 2023 Instructor: Dr. Anne S. Rush Interviewer’s name: Maggie Welsh Interviewee’s name: Marta Woodward Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Ethiopia Date of Interview: March 6, 2023 Place of Interview: Silver Spring, Montgomery County, Maryland, U.S.A. Introduction: This interview between Maggie Welsh and Marta Woodward looks at why she came to the United States and her thoughts of the United States when she got here. Marta immigrated to the United States from Ethiopia, but there were other stops on the way. Marta talks about the other places she has lived in between Ethiopia and the United States. She recaps living in Ethiopia, moving to Kenya when she was four years old, going to college in London, and then moving to the United States. She speaks about growing up in the revolution in Ethiopia, getting denied a student visa application, reuniting with family in the United States, passport issues, and race issues in the United States. She also talks about being the minority in the United States after coming from being in the majority. Keywords: Ethiopia, Kenya, United Kingdom, revolution, family, race, minority Welsh: My name is Maggie Welsh and I am interviewing Marta Woodward on March 6th, 2023 in Silver Spring, Maryland. Um, so can you tell me your date of birth and place of birth? Woodward: I was born January 5th, 1972, in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. Welsh: Um, can you tell me about the environment you grew up in in Ethiopia? Woodward: Family environment or political environment or— Welsh: Um, family environment. Woodward: Okay, um, I grew up, um, with two educated parents, college educated parents. They were educated in the United States, um, so they were you know fairly well to do I guess you could say and um both my grandparents, both sets of grandparents were fairly well educated too, so education was a big deal in our household, but so was religion. Um, my uhhh grandfather had converted from Orthodox Christianity to Protestant Christianity because of missions that had been active in Ethiopia, so we were also, um, it was, I grew up in a, basically in a Christian household and faith was just a big part of all of our social gatherings and, um, and my both parents’ families, my mom’s family and my dad’s family were very, very close, so family gatherings were always just big intergenerational massive things and um as I recall, it was just a very safe and loving and warm and comfortable early childhood I’d say. Welsh: Got it. Um, and how old were you when you moved, um, to Kenya from Ethiopia? Woodward: I was four. I was about four, I think nearly five years old. Welsh: Um, and do you remember anything about like the moving from Kenya to Ethiopia or from yeah from [laughs] it’s from Ethiopia to Kenya �Woodward: Yeah. Um, I do. Not much, um, I don’t remember for example that my dad had already moved to Kenya a year in advance of us, so I don’t remember his being gone, but I do remember arriving in Kenya and being very happy to see him, um, with my two brothers and my mom. And I remember we didn’t have, you know, in those days when you got on a plane, this was in the ‘70s, um, in those days you still got dressed up, so we were all dressed up really well in our traveling clothes and when we got to Kenya, um, somebody gave us some flip flops to wear, so we could get more casual. So, I just remember getting flip flops, I don’t know why that was significant. [Welsh laughs] Um, I remember lots of pictures being taken. I remember just a lot of joy that my parents were reunited. Um, but I don’t remember much other than that. Um, I guess bits and pieces, and fragments of memories come from the years directly after that, like moving into our first house and just what Nairobi felt like initially, but yeah no I don’t remember the circumstances, you know, I don’t remember the anxiety and the political turmoil that drove us from Ethiopia, but yeah. Welsh: Um, and can you say why your dad went before everyone else? Woodward: That’s a great question. He went because his family, his immediate family, our nuclear family was kind of compromised and a little bit in danger because the government in Ethiopia was hostile towards my uncle, my father’s eldest brother, because this was a regime change in Ethiopia that occurred in 1974. There was a revolution and the emperor was deposed in military coup. And the new regime had it in for all of the peoples, all the people that were high ranking members of any part of the emperor's political apparatus and that included my uncle, who was a police chief. And so he had been imprisoned and had been on trial and my dad had been trying to support him and, you know, help with the law case, the legal case against him and so on. And it became more and more dangerous for my dad because in those days, the new military government was taking in anyone and everyone they suspected of being directly connected with the old regime, but then also peripheral people to that regime. So it wasn’t just the people who were in the government, but people connected to those people, so my dad counted. So, he left and went to Nairobi because, um, before, um, you know a few years before that he had lived in New York and worked for the United Nations there and there was a big United Nations headquarters in Nairobi, in Kenya. So he figured he’d go ahead of my mom to see if he could get a new job in the UN system and establish himself financially and you know um and then send for us when the, when the time was right. Welsh: Got it. Um, and how was life different in Ethiopia versus Kenya? Woodward: Oh, my goodness. Um, [laughs] you know it’s funny when you ask that. What comes to mind are all the photographs because that’s really what I remember. I think I have this sort of vicarious memory from the photographs, so in the pictures of Ethiopia, I see huge family gatherings. I see my great grandparents. I see my grandparents. I see cousins, extended family members, uncles, aunts and through the years my parents have pointed out well that was uncle so and so, that was uncle so and so, oh that was at the annual picnic where we went here, oh that was at the church gathering here. And so I think suddenly our family went from being this huge multigenerational, um, family to being a family of us five and the other members of the community that had fled Ethiopia and Eritrea. So it became very important for us to build other family in Kenya because suddenly we were just, you know, and there was no sign that we would ever go back to Ethiopia because you know they that’s just the way it was, you left Ethiopia, you don’t go back in those days, so, um I again I don’t remember that feeling of being, I don’t associate that time with loss or sadness, I think I was just too young, um, but I do remember �there were, you know, there was just a different way of socializing, it was just much smaller, much more intimate, um. But I do remember that we were, still, you know, most of the socializing we did was still with Ethiopians and still with Eritreans, there’s still sort of built a new family is how I’d describe it. Other than that, we were still, you know, very comfortable, my dad did have a job with the United Nations and we still, you know, went to good schools, and we didn’t, we were very comfortable, so yeah. Welsh: And, um, when you moved to the US, do you think that you still had that, um, strong like family, um, that you had back? Woodward: Oh, that’s, um, very, very interesting. Um, my parents' marriage broke up when I was eight, so probably 3 or 4 years after we moved to Nairobi everything fell apart in my family. So, and then I didn’t see my mother again until I was 23, so she, um, had first moved to Switzerland and then moved to the United States, um, and along with my aunt and so that was the family that I had in the States. Um, when I moved to the States it’s because she had sponsored me for a green card, you know like a legal alien, resident alien designation and so I came I guess to be with family, namely her, um, but it’s certainly no I don’t think it had that same feeling at all. My brothers were here because of college, so that was fun, you know lots of friends were here, but no, no that was I didn’t come to the States and feel like I had a ton of family at all, no. Welsh: Got it. Um and then so you went to University in London, right? Woodward: Correct. Welsh: And when did you realize that you wanted to go to, um, school in London? Woodward: [laughs] I didn’t originally—well I wanted to come to the States for college actually, um, but then I was denied a visa at the US embassy, um, in Nairobi. So, I couldn't come to the States and there are lots of reasons for that, but I long story short, I had no choice, I mean I am lucky enough and privileged enough to say I had to go to England. But, um, in order to get the education, I guess, um, that I, you know, that I thought would fit with my goals, um, and still go to an English speaking country, it was, it was the United Kingdom. So that happened not out of choice, but out of necessity, and that was when I was 19. Welsh: Got it. Um, what University did you go to and what did you get your degree in? Woodward: So, I went to King's College, um, London, which is a college, a member college of the University of London and my, um, undergraduate degree was in biomedical science and then I stayed there for my master’s in biomedical research. Welsh: Um, and did you get a, um, job in London after? Woodward: I didn’t. No, I came back home to Kenya because I figured, you know, that was home and I had my whole life intended to work in the field of international aid and development, so I’d thought I’d work for UNICEF or some other UN agency or non-governmental organization, um, and work, you know, in emergency zones. That’s kind of what my experience had been in my summer between my undergraduate degree and my master’s degree. I did, um, I spent a couple of months working in Rwanda right after the genocide and I thought that was my future. I just thought that’s what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. Um, and it just didn’t work out that way, so but long story short I left England and went back to Kenya thinking that I’d make my life and career there. �Welsh: And then what did you do when you got back to Kenya? Did you work there? Woodward: Yes, I looked for work for a long time and I finally found work with an organization that is, um, affiliated with Johns Hopkins University and it is, it dealt with public health issues and nursing in, particularly nursing in maternal and child health. And so I just was working, you know, on a daily contract with them in Nairobi because they had studies in and around Kenya. And so I was working for them for a little while, um, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t really sustainable long term kind of, you know, it was hourly pay kind of thing and it wasn’t like something that I thought I could do long term. Welsh: Um, and how, how long were you in Kenya when you went back after, um, college and then before you came to the U.S.? Woodward: Ok, so that was probably, I want to say I got back in September, um, I got back maybe in September and then I left again in—that can’t be right. I think I was there for like 6 months, half a year, something like that. Yeah. Welsh: Um, and just one more question on the topic of school. Um, what was—did you notice any, um, differences between your experience of school in London and Kenya? Woodward: Um, so, well you know when I was—I never went to, um, higher education like college and university in Kenya, so I went, I finished high school in Kenya and then I did all my college and postgrad studies in England. So, the primary difference was the, just a matter of levels yeah. Welsh: Ok, um, and was immigrating to the US more of a push or a pull? Woodward: Oh. Um, it was, it was a push. You know it’s funny a lot of immigrants say there’s no avoiding death, taxes, or America. It’s like if you have a connection in America, it seems inevitable that you will wind up there or should die trying somehow. So it’s a bit of both I suppose. Um, you remember that my mom had applied for me to have—to get a green card and that was the reason that I couldn’t go there for college because the counselor like the embassy said you can’t both have a green card application pending and a student visa application. You can’t, those two, you have to wait until you get the green card. So I put the green card application on hold, finished my education, and when I came back to Kenya, I pursued the green card because an Ethiopian passport, as much as I love, you know, my heritage, is the worst passport in the world to travel with. So if there’s any other passport you could have, other than Ethiopian it makes sense, so I felt pulled because you know I wanted to know my mom, get to know my mom and my brothers were here and America, I mean it’s America! But I also felt pushed because the yeah, the immigration application had already been started. I needed very much to not have an Ethiopian passport anymore, so I could travel without being harassed and I have been very harassed and so, um, yeah so a bit of both, I suppose. Welsh: And when you came here after college, it was just your mom and brothers? Was your dad here too? Woodward: No, my dad was not here. My dad was in Eritrea at the time. Welsh: Ok. Um, and how did you come to, um, America? On a plane? Woodward: Yes, yes. Welsh: And was the process like hard or smooth and did you hit any road bumps on the way? �Woodward: No, because then I had legitimate papers in hand, so everywhere I pass through it was clear that I was going to the United States as a legal resident alien, so I had status now. I wasn’t just an Ethiopian tourist; I wasn’t just some random person who could flee into the country and seek asylum. I was actually, I had a status in the States, so no. On that trip no, and that was my first time to the States by the way. I was 25, I think. Welsh: The first time you came— Woodward: To the States— Welsh: After college, was the first time you had ever been? Woodward: Yeah! Welsh: Um. Woodward: I don’t sound like it though, right? [both laugh] ‘Cause I went to American schools my whole life, so I have kind of an American accent. Welsh: As time has passed, how has your experience compared to what you expected? Woodward: Hmm. I don’t know that I had any expectations of the States when I came here, um, I guess I was pretty naive, honestly, specifically about race issues. Having grown up in an environment where it was 100% normal to be black and we were the majority, you know, the majority ethnic group in Ethiopia was of course Ethiopians, Eritrean or whatever and then in Kenya everybody was black, you know, and it was a very diverse and, um, multicultural city Nairobi, but so. And I think you know all the TV shows that we’d ever watched about the States gave us the impression that everything was cool in America, as far as race relations were concerned. It was really the OJ Simpson case that first kind of made me think, what is going on in this country, you know, why would anybody celebrate that verdict? It didn’t make sense to me. Um, it also didn’t—I remember when Marion Barry was, he was the former mayor of DC, he was caught with some kind of drugs in a hotel room with a prostitute and, um, and the black community leapt to his defense, and it just didn’t make sense to me. I just didn’t understand, and I just thought that those were aberrations in race relations and that otherwise black people and white people and everybody else in America just got along great. That was, that was my expectation and I remember, actually it’s funny that you ask because I remember the first night after I landed in DC, my brother and his best friend from Kenya, they were both in DC at the time, um, and me, we went out to the movies to, um, the Uptown on Connecticut Avenue and Independence Day was showing because it had just come out. And afterwards, and it was you know that was just like to me America on steroids, like ok I’m in the States and I’m watching this ridiculous movie, but this is awesome. And then we came out of the theater and my brother tried to hail a cab and nobody would stop for him. And then he told his Irish friend, “hey can you just, can you just stand out, stand out front and you hail it?” And that guy raised his arm and a cab stopped immediately and it was like my first introduction to like what, this is bizarre you know? And I really felt sad for my brother because he had spent, you know, his entire college career there and it just, it just understood that that’s what it was. Um, but it was a little bit eyeopening and then of course now, you know fast forward however many years later it is, maybe 25? See how old was I when I came here? It’s about 26 years now. I mean I, it is, um, very saddening to me to know the—that ideal that I had of America is not actually realistic and that there are serious fractures and that we have a lot of healing to do. So that’s maybe my main, my main growth experience with this country, but otherwise I, I have to say it is the refuge that I �always thought it would be in many ways. Refuge from day-to-day corruption, you know you and I don’t have to face that really. In Kenya, in Africa a lot of places you deal with that every single day, so that part of it has been nice, um, the orderly streets, trash pickup, all the conveniences of modern civilized life have not disappointed. But, yeah, but there are obviously some serious cultural issues we have to work on. Welsh: And so when you first came here, you went to DC and then did you live in DC first? Woodward: I did live in DC at my aunt's place. I’m very close to my aunt. She’s my mother’s younger sister, um, and my mom was living with her at the time, um, as well as my grandmother. They were both taking care of her, so I lived there for ten months, I would say, in Petworth and then I found my own place in Baltimore. Welsh: Gotcha. And, um, how do you think immigration changed you? Woodward: Immigration ok, uh, in the first place it changed me because it freed me, I mean it liberated me. Um, I fundamentally as a person didn’t change, but my circumstances changed because anyone who’s traveled with a passport through wealthier nations, like if you’ve traveled with an Ethiopian or African or undesirable passport through a wealthy nation, I mean it’s, it’s actually dehumanizing, I think. It’s really dehumanizing, um, and having the US passport is like such a, it’s such, um, I don’t know, it’s like a great lubricant of travel, you just sail right through. Um, and I don’t think people—I think people who are Americans and have always been Americans really take that for granted. When you’re trying to travel from country to country, across this world, which really belongs to all of us, and you are treated like, you know, dirt just because of your passport, it’s really humiliating and so that, that changed me, just the, you know, freedom. I still have scars from that, but I feel very free to travel and like any decent human being with the right to travel. Um, it also has filled me with a lot of guilt because I come from a part of the world that’s very, very poor and very, very troubled and so when I—every time I think about the convenience of being a US citizen and having my house and everything that having US citizenship has afforded me, I can’t help like in the same exact thought, I think about the people back home that I know, whether they’re family members or just friends that are, I hate to say the word, but I feel like they’re trapped in an existence that is just very very very difficult and so I feel a lot of guilt about it too. But mostly I just feel tremendous gratitude, I really do. In fact, you can see the tip of the American flag outside my window box there. I always have— even if it’s a little flag, I have a flag where I can see it because it means a lot to me to be an American as an immigrant. Welsh: Um, can you describe your first work experience in the US? Woodward: Yeah, I continued working for the same company that I had been working with, um, in Kenya, um, I just, it transferred me to Baltimore and I worked for Johns Hopkins over there, um, yeah. It was pretty dull work, data entry, you know, data entry and little bit of data analysis for studies that we were doing in maternal and child health. Um, yeah nothing too exciting and then after, um, that contract ended I temped for a while. That might be in your future too, I don’t know, but temping is hard, it makes, it makes a woman or a man out of you that’s for sure. Um, but yeah, so my early years in this country were spent doing kind of like grunt work and yeah. Welsh: And then after, um, when did you decide, ‘cause you went back and got your master’s. Woodward: I got my master’s right after my, um…you mean in teaching? Welsh: Yeah, in education. �Woodward: Oh, ok. Sorry. When did I decide to do that? Welsh: Yeah. Woodward: Oh ok. So I decided— Welsh: Or how long were you in the US before you decided to? Woodward: At that point I had been in the US, that’s a good question. I arrived in ‘95, maybe 15 years. 14, 15 years I had been here. Um, and I decided to become a teacher because I wanted a career that flowed with my kids, um, lives basically, so that’s why I decided to—and also because I had the example of my husband's family. Mark's family were pretty much all teachers and lived overseas and had a fantastic life and I thought that’s gotta be me. Welsh: Um, and so you worked all the way up until you decided that you wanted to go back to get your master’s— Woodward: No. Welsh: --or did you take any breaks? Woodward: I did. I took a ten year, I wouldn’t call it a break. I was a stay-at-home mom. It’s the hardest job I’ve ever had. [Maggie chuckles] Um, but yeah I, once I got married, um, to my high school sweetheart actually, um, I decided to stay home to be with the boys while they were growing up and part of the reason for that is just because I couldn’t afford to work. Honestly, day care was so expensive and the job, any job that I would get wouldn’t, wouldn’t do anything but pay for childcare, like it wouldn’t give us any extra money, so I figured I’ll just stay at home and not have to deal with childcare. So, that was ten years and then when my youngest son went to kindergarten, I went to University of Maryland. Welsh: Um, and what are the biggest differences between your experience of work in the US and, um, Kenya? Woodward: Ok. I only worked briefly in Kenya as a consultant. I didn’t feel like—I think one of the main differences that I can point to is not necessarily the nature of the work, but just the nature of the office. So, in Kenya there’s somebody who always comes around with tea, you know, and they bring you hot tea and, um, there’s just a lot more of a nurturing environment over there. And in the States it’s you show up, you get your work done, you don’t mess around, you know, maybe once in a while you take a lunch break with a friend, but it’s all business, it’s all business. The idea of somebody bringing you tea or coffee and whose job it is to bring you tea or coffee is so funny. Welsh: Um, and so going back to, um, how you met Mark, your husband, um, when did you meet him? Woodward: I met him when we were in high school. Welsh: Okay. Woodward: Um, yeah in Kenya. We were both in high school. Welsh: So, his parents were teachers there? Woodward: Yes. Well, his dad was a pastor, a missionary and his mom was the school librarian. Welsh: And then did you get—were you split up ever? �Woodward: Yes, we split up, um, after we started college. We had every intention of staying together, but it just didn’t work out. The distance was too great. He was at Swarthmore and I was at Kings and I mean there’s like this huge ocean between us and no email. There was no email in those days. There was no FaceTime. There was nothing. There was just the, you know, the Postal Service. It was just too hard and so we split up in our first year of college and we stayed split up for like a good five years before we got back together. Welsh: And then when did you get back together with him when you were in the US already? Woodward: Yes. Yup. Welsh: Ok. Then how long were you in the US before you married him? Woodward: Um, got married in ‘99. I think about 4 years. 3 or 4 years, something like that. Yeah. Welsh: Um, and has, so the religion part, um, do you, so you wanted to keep up with it when you moved to the US? Woodward: Mm-hm. Welsh: And do you think that it was a support system in any way for you? Woodward: My church groups and my small groups have always been a big support system for me, absolutely. Welsh: Um, did you start going to church like right when you came to the US or— Woodward: Yeah, I did. Welsh: And then overall, what is the thing you are most proudest of, proud of and why? Woodward: Oh my goodness. That is a really hard question. You mean as it relates to immigration specifically or just me? Welsh: Or just like you or life after being in the US. Woodward: I think the thing that I’m proudest of and it sounds really silly, is that Mark and I made choices, financial choices, that gave us a lot of freedom in life and that means that when we had the option to earn a ton of money and then you know, have you heard the term golden handcuffs? Like you earn so much money that you just can’t walk away from the job because now you have committed all that money to like the big house, the amazing car, the private schools, the fancy vacations, the circles that you run in. We said no to that, we just said no that, like it was available to us and in some ways some people think of that as the American Dream, like you get more and more and more, but we consciously rejected that to have a life that made sense and I am proud of that. I feel stupid saying that, but I am happy, I’m not proud of it, I’m happy we made that decision. I don’t regret it. Yeah. Welsh: And is there anything else you want to tell me? Woodward: I want to tell you, Maggie, that I want to go to Vail. I want to go to Vail and ski. Yes. I want to tell you as an immigrant, I am so proud that I am a skier actually! I am proud that I am a skier and I always look for other Black people on the slopes and I never really see them because I just feel like solidarity. I would feel a lot you know less like I stuck out. And then I found an organization the other day called the Brotherhood of Black Skiers or something. �There’s like tons of Black skiers out there, so. And it’s open to anyone. So I’d like you to join with me. Welsh: [laughing] Okay. Woodward: Seriously, they welcome anyone. Welsh: Um, thank you. Woodward: You’re welcome. � https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/8c8bbce64e27368665292e93efe3ab21.m4a?Expires=1787184000&Signature=g3SIZdBLYLHU3Jlr9pwx3H%7EQ1L1895bzBQMbvBxLS-z4%7EjSsrt3WjCE9UWu05Rzi2QwJwCzIn7%7E9yi-uHuSJQayrB%7EmGRNO7RlQGfMaWpsTJ1rT56BGLysDzCHhyOTW3BZQZ1EPJ7cnq7OqrWzPE8ThkDhiH2vUQFmlVOZ93enuHPYXHQK1e3Pr1JF9kpq3XCuz26mLyLg9XhBNVD9s6%7ERmQ5kFjtQeKT38U4TVij1BrTE88%7EflsF2fea2oRCu6zaS2QIpMpW%7Et5QUBU01sgKEImE7eXeVVXEeFfQrpjfHnXgivtLh4ehIcl1NqhQmpQ0meNrfpccm8cuGShWW8ZjA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM b34c7db47100cfe548f4a6926709899a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Maggie Welsh Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marta Woodward Location The location of the interview Silver Spring, Montgomery County, MD Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marta Woodward Description An account of the resource This interview between Maggie Welsh and Marta Woodward looks at why she came to the United States and her thoughts of the United States when she got here. Marta immigrated to the United States from Ethiopia, but there were other stops on the way. Marta talks about the other places she has lived in between Ethiopia and the United States. She recaps living in Ethiopia, moving to Kenya when she was four years old, going to college in London, and then moving to the United States. She speaks about growing up in the revolution in Ethiopia, getting denied a student visa application, reuniting with family in the United States, passport issues, and race issues in the United States. She also talks about being the minority in the United States after coming from being in the majority. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maggie Welsh Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 6, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Ethiopia family Kenya race revolution United Kingdom https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/fe839fb8cc494f3c91a53af962fa4fd0.png?Expires=1787184000&Signature=bpeSgMABLyXsTu1JtxR5LxG1rhWaOUvIj3Z%7ErG8VxVz%7EWUo-NtJadEf6n2XlDx4DhPgzgvP2scbLqyw8146C2X%7E1EYScLMfpk6eDh1Piwh83groeLrSIaCdRysKMncthqYcucbIgzch6QSrBWXEC42TTKMDahPf2C%7ENX0wTX8kNEoAy4ISEQaS8kee%7EkMcg8h6BeT3fDKMBmHnujKPXqHSSkZCKvquq4C%7E6XkTdQCjzkHEHT9P0L3KCOog9gJF2zlUGxiNiPvZrntUwld9LeImuzI%7E2CTXr1DUo5rmegbu3iJCLcUHF7bwHt%7EaHj0-NY9ws2rMdO0bWPAB-Njmfrrg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Neil V. Vu Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bob (Pseudonym) Location The location of the interview College Park, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob (Pseudonym) Description An account of the resource This interview transcript between Neil Vu and Bob [pseudonym] shares his immigrant story from his former country to U.S. migration. His immigrant experience portrayed his life that represented his educational background as well his remembrance of obtaining student visa to living that he had never encountered before. A former teaching assistant at his graduate school in Kansas City, his involvement in higher education had something he wanted to teach about one day at a top-ranked business school in the DMV area which he would never forget working with students in the classroom that he loved in his career. His passion for teaching at a business-related field had something that he admired to do, in which he wanted to focus on his academic track. His interview therefore showed how it is to be living in the U.S. with an educational background that can change others in the academic community. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Neil V. Vu Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 16th, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History India school teacher https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/2ddb508b99677e148f72481466097897.png?Expires=1787184000&Signature=bz4iTBPYDNlNoq9pwsbN3%7EhOQoCb5uyip17IhCBDa241d5HMVy3vLzNp5cZfhNKeMHad02Cmx8qsYauK2UaS957D0wKwKYjdJARwdir2hIELcJnZHCvJbX3A5sMw-2uqAeZrivwzGFT62hKyXbNLlypyYdTAaKs4khjbAXKorI0jN--uorEVP0v2uZraMfeywT1-EmIfvIb6Y4dAI6ifM5dljRhCx8et%7ET-mmh76QJpzWlM0dLf%7EpeIy5Q4f%7ErVTUNP9jFd1WJE8X3gQZ5RlMUnfc-YGs6s5QDKQtXyLVHCjWraWT1peZjQ-4H-Sui7T5JbBNvuRkVt3T8WT9%7Eu-1w__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Avani R. Katre Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ratnakar Katre Location The location of the interview Clarksburg, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ratnakar Katre Description An account of the resource This interview between Avani Katre and her father, Ratnakar Katre, delves into his childhood, overcoming the struggles of poverty, and finding his way to America to build a life for him and his family. He explains the difficulties of attaining his education and of finding a job in his chosen career field as well as the unique challenges of chasing ambition from rural India. The interview also explores the experiences of an immigrant coming on a work visa and becoming a naturalized citizen, hinting at the exploitation by companies of these immigrants. Throughout the interview Ratnakar focuses on his work ethic, his ambition, and gratefulness even in the face of all his struggles in both India and the U.S. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Avani R. Katre Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 12, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History education H1B India jobs Poverty https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/ed547cc628089cd280174e5a95147785.jpg?Expires=1787184000&Signature=FStWHi7pQbGeeHdKfmTsikrMiBsGaPpPg-qGto6Ljittn8qGJM8BeKidK22Gkwwo%7EseFHsPZCNnQaMDb0NEIDj4ONIhZIXhlsP85vcEZitIHSQwRPTPmM1mSzfIa46CWNrkA18HXH8EtErzMHtpqmvJoIFqFiGajwmWvt0g2E%7E0rIntcsGRcLDtDkX%7Exd493JbsdD93Lv5P5lJ79DHaQkxI6kO7gyugNG88ha8SJBIoy9WhKqK5Rj01%7EP8p%7ELjrBbkHvhfZCnllfFNZRg2Xzc5kruKPi6drUepMmtFXkGJPn%7E5A7YBn9Vrhj0twLnqR03Hf98%7EAZd4YJ3Yl80N%7EEaw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 258439a14c1aff39f8b738545207d02b https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/7236748152e2db632c68bcfe5bb33cf7.m4a?Expires=1787184000&Signature=IPF1uMj7ZkYMYFlFumx8qFEUksvu%7E%7ExAE8h%7EWiagmCkzawRvTiagCHwwVBwwlMjN8q7nw3Mqa2I9dQoMLEauub%7EoUe9r4Bm9mzBuoyM4YW%7E73YgX8NzaiWThan4Gbg1UhdwqHzIb8QVBEEeY8NtWRbxsQ2dP9g3-aJTP5W4MKaZJWTIRbGdlpAi5P8MZh080BXcqyrWMLEC04edcnixWckojmIzEh2P6yW4t%7ElBcmz64pgP9CrQGjSKlGGvSuMjDrWSy5jop1bJ9jzM1-SRFGhEGrqNRV0%7EBmLlwNIrx9rxYU4nylENPvwsVR4hpXiB68rKcnBlmBuXd60b6Xf-yRA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 9b9ef0bc82a7c08d39f807314049ec52 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/4b30b599216bc02ca3d1fd666baa6701.pdf?Expires=1787184000&Signature=r-3dFc5CiCEZLEuI0dUVfKjBNqAVsEwTt2y2tNgDl4cCTYczPzqyLjBXWkKvD-Yr3p7kJ11vSmCNYbleK2LMuua8FdBN1O49dW1AOarPCyiOCgYScpkr0qPELXX0JWkEKqDimqZXrFQQGYJ5BOZdsMFum4V0Rj%7EcbU0-q6RxEp6PVrdcPX-AVb0satwfG4LosfUpmu0l2QfIfe20gisHrDlfnt4KDoaCle7CrjsgAJO%7E-79AirvG2bOzAdrgaLO%7EtIbekmh41OKF1-npw3W9AS-Dq88INfcRNyhzk7ZEX3YA8LLpTijIIF3OLVcx6G1%7E1reCWhJvNVEiiZEYsip5Lw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM c357ff9ff08eaa39dd9231c329bee052 PDF Text Text 1 Transcript for Oral History Interview Conducted for University of Maryland Course: HIST465 – Spring 2023 Instructor: Dr. Anne S. Rush Interviewer’s Name: Aidan Lambiotte Interviewee’s Name: Mary Tsiolas Interviewee’s Country of Origin: Canada Interviewee’s Current of Residence: Takoma Park, Maryland, Montgomery County, USA Date of Interview: March 6th, 2023 Place of Interview: Takoma Park, Maryland, Montgomery County, USA Type of Interview: In Person Introduction: This interview is between Aidan Lambiotte and his aunt, Mary Tsiolis, a Greek Canadian immigrant to the United States. As the daughter of Greek immigrants to Quebec, Mary depicts her early childhood, and experiences growing up in both Greece and Monrtréal during the 1960s - 1970s. She draws stark contrasts between her experiences in Canada and her initial time as an immigrant in America, touching heavily on the themes of isolation, microaggression, and white suburban hegemony in the United States. She ultimately uses her experiences to illustrate the manner in which she found community in the DC area, entirely outside of Greek or Canadian culture, as well as her love-hate relationship with American identity. Keywords: Partie Quebecois, isolation, community, Suburbs, healthcare, music, politics Aidan: Okay, um, this is Aidan Lambiotte here with Mary Tsiolas, In Takoma Park, Maryland, at 3:22PM on, it is, today is March 6th, Monday March 6th, 2023. Um so to start, can you tell me your, your name, your age, your place of birth, and your date of birth? Mary: Okay, um, my name is Mary Tsiolas, uh, I was born in Montreal Canada, March 27th, 1959, so I will be 64 [on] March 27th, 2023. Um… Aidan: Good? Mary: That's about it! Aidan: Okay good, um, and, so, so to start we kind of just want to get a good sense of what your childhood was like, what your early life was like, so if you could, um, can you tell me about the environment you grew up in? Mary: I grew up in a Greek, I grew up with a Greek family, where my parents are from Greece, they migrated to Canada when they were teenagers, in 1957, and then when I was three years old, and my �2 sister was one year old, we went to live with my grandparents in Greece, so we could learn the language, and spend time with them. Then, we moved back to Canada, when I was nine or ten years old, probably nine, nine and a half. And uh, [we] lived in Canada until 1980, and then we moved to the US in 1980. Aidan: Okay, and so, so to backtrack a little bit, can you tell me about, uh, like what a normal day was like when you were in Greece when you were young, as much as you can remember? Mary: Uh we lived in the country, it was beautiful, we had a lot of friends because there was a really, um, a very tight knit neighborhood, and everyone played with each other, it was very carefree, it was very trusting, nobody locked doors, and it was beautiful. Aidan: Good, and what was your daily routine like? Did you go to school there? Mary: Yes, I went to elem-- kindergarten and elementary school there, uh, it was Greek school all day, except we had once a week an English cla-- English class, and it was the basics, and, um, so I can read and write Greek. And then when we moved to Canada, I went to a special English class, to pick up on my English, and then within six months I was placed in my grade, my English grade, in the Canadian school. Aidan: I see, and what was the name of the place in Greece where you were? Mary: The town? The name is Levidi, and it's a very small town in the province, the state is Arcadia in the Peloponnese. Aidan: Okay, very good. Um, yeah, so, so what, you said that you, you were in elementary school in Greece, um, when you came back to Canada after a few years in Greece, what were some differences that you noticed, or were there any differences that you noticed between the educational systems of, like, your Greek school versus you Canadian school, or-Mary: Oh, it was like day and night. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Uh Greek school, uh, we were in the country so it was structured with a very long lunch break, where everyone went home for lunch and then we all went back to school in the afternoon, um, it was, um, it was very hard, it was, um we did a lot of uh, there was a lot of classes, a lot of classes that I didn't have in Canada like calligraphy classes at a very young age, and, um, and like really, outdoor gym, that was really kind of rough for us being young, and, um, Canada was much more indoors, nobody went home for lunch. Oh no we did go home for lunch, yes we did, we lived close, and so we did go home for lunch, the school, uh, had a break for a couple of hours and then we went back in the afternoon. Um, it was very structured, um, it was tough in the beginning, because, um, it was hard for me as a young child because I had to learn English very fast, because I wanted to have friends and I wanted to be able to communicate. Aidan: Mm-hm. �3 Mary: So, television helped a lot. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: A Lot of TV, and a lot of special classes, and I was very young, so we picked it up very fast, my sister and I. Aidan: Yeah, were there any, um, were you mostly--so, in French Canada, were you watching French TV? Mary: It was in English Canada then. Aidan: Really? Mary: Yes, because Partie Quebecois didn't take over until much later, so I was there in the 70s. Aidan: Oh so it was predominantly English? Mary: English, yes. Aidan: Ah okay, I didn't know that. Mary: Quebec, Quebec was predominantly English, yes, absolutely, yes. Aidan: Ah I didn't know that, okay. Mary: Yeah so, when we left in like, late 70s, in 79, 1979 to 1980 when we moved here, it was starting to change. Aidan: Starting to change. I see. Mary: Yes, to where all the English public schools were closing, and there were primarily French, and, you know, all that changed then. Aidan: I see, okay. Mary: So, there was a huge migration out of Can--out of Montreal then, a lot of the English, uh, speaking folks, and a lot of the Europeans that wanted to maintain their kid’s education in English, they left to go to English speaking parts of Canada, which pretty much Toronto, like, got flooded overnight basically. Aidan: Interesting. Mary: Yeah. �4 Aidan: Okay, um, so, kind of going back to education, a little bit, so once you came back to Greece, and because you had a fairly long amount of time in the educational system of Canada. Mary: Right. Aidan: Um, I guess, like, what was that like especially as you started to grow, and started to um, when you, when you get to, you know, when you reach adolescence and wanted to, um, you know-Mary: It was very different in Canada, because at the time all the schools were cut in half, half the school was all French, and the other half of the school was all English. And so, we basically-- and the English, um, English side, we had to take French, and if we didn't pass our French class we would flunk, and it was the same thing for the French side, the kids, they had to take English, and it was a primary subject, so if they failed it they would fail their class. So, that was a little, that was weird because people didn't really hang out together, the English side of the cafeteria, I mean there was an English side of the cafeteria speaking kids, the Anglophones, and the Francophones were on the other side, and a lot of them did not really connect, and so it was really a little bit rough when you're younger, because, coming from an ethnic family, you know, we had Greek school, we had English school, we had Greek school on the weekend and French school. So, it was a lot of work. Aidan: A lot of education. Mary: A lot, a lot, it was like a lot pushed at us, but it was, it was a good thing. Aidan: Okay, so-Mary: But hard at the time. Aidan: So, your, so your daily routine consisted of a lot of, a lot of schooling. Mary: Yes, I had never seen a, um, an open book test, until I moved to the US. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And that was shocking. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: Because when I moved to the US, I had finished high school in Canada, but I needed to get the equivalent to the American high school, uh, diploma. I needed to take American history, and US government. So, at the time they, they, they only would let us take, not two courses, but four courses, so I ended up taking English, American government, US history, and I think it was art or something. Aidan: Okay, okay. �5 Mary: Yeah. Aidan: Um, so, kind of, sort of, just to get a better sense of what Montreal was like for you. Mary: Mm-hm Aidan: Um, is there a large immigrant community in Montreal? That you? Mary: Yes. Aidan: Okay. Mary: Yes, very much so. It's very international. Aidan: Right. Mary: We lived in the Italian part of town, um, there was like, there's like different ethnic neighborhood, it's very multicultural, multi-ethnic, always has been and it still is, but primarily now because its Quebec, there, the primary language there is first, French. So, if you don't know fluent French and fluent English, you cannot get a job. Aidan: Mm-hm, right, and, um, is, is there a sizable Greek community there too? Mary: Yes, there is a huge old Greek community there, with churches, with schools, very big, very, very big. Aidan: Okay, so you grew up in an environment where you did not feel-Mary: I didn't feel as a stranger, out of place. Yes, because when I first moved here, because I don't have straight blonde hair, I was like, always asked where am I from. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: To where in Canada, in Montreal, nobody asked you that. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: You know? Everyone was like, from somewhere, and um it was basically “how good is your French?” [laughs] Aidan: Right. Right, so, um, so yeah, wha wha, so what was, was there anything you noticed, like did you feel, in terms of your sense of feeling at home and feeling the sense of community, how, or were there any differences in how you felt about being in Greece versus the Greek community in Montreal? �6 Mary: Well that was when I was really young, there was a huge, the differences that I noticed the most was the differences between the Canadian, the Montreal Canadian communities to moving here, to Washington. My parents bought a house in Virgina, Vienna, Virginia, the subway then, it was 1980, it only went to Rosslyn, it was very isolating out in the suburbs, it was primarily white, um, it, we really felt like aliens. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: That was really, a lot harder than moving from Greece from a young age to Montreal, the hard part was that we moved from the country, that literally everything was open, there was like, uh, very, you know, very small buildings, it wasn't, you know, and then all of the sudden we moved to Montreal and here's this giant city, and there is giant buildings and skyscrapers and tons of traffic, so that was really shocking. Aidan: Right. Mary: That part, you know, to get, to get used to. Aidan: Yeah, okay, so now we’ll transition a little bit to um, I guess like the crux of this interview, um, how did you get to America? And that's kind of a broad question. You can interpret this a couple ways I guess. Mary: Mm-hm. Aidan: But in a broad sense, how did you get to America? Mary: Okay, um, at the time, because we were in high school my parents, there was three of, I had three siblings, my parents, and my three sibling--my two other siblings, so three kids, and I’m the oldest, and, um, my dad had gotten really tired, even though he loved Montreal, he had gotten tired of the cold winters, and it was hard on his body, and he started hating it. So, he decided to do a little tour in the US to visit friends and family, and he fell, he ended up coming, driving through Virginia in the spring, and everything had bloomed, and Washington was very beautiful with all the cherry blossoms, and he fell madly in love with the area. So he decided that this is where he wanted to move us all to. And so at the time he hired a lawyer, and um, they uh the lawyer got us green cards, uh, you know, resident alien cards, and we all moved here, that's how we moved, through my dad. So my dad was here for a couple of years, and he got all the paperwork done, and then he brought us, he brought the entire family here. Aidan: I see, so was that when you were, so you finished high school in Canada? Mary: Yes. And then I did three, uh, the four classes here to grad, to get also--I went to high school at Madison High in Virginia, uh, for the last year, for another year when we first moved here so I could get the equivalency to the diploma, to the high school diploma. �7 Aidan: Okay, I see, and then, um, after that, what did you do? When you were, when you were sort of, uh, when, I guess like when you-Mary: After high school? Aidan: After high school, and-Mary: After high school I took some classes at George Mason. I really didn't like being out in the suburbs, so I dropped the classes, and I wanted to move to DC, to Washington, to the city. And I decided that I really wanted to check out and see what it's like becoming a stylist, a hair stylist, so I apprenticed in a salon, and ended up really liking it and I stayed there, and I finished my apprenticeship, I did my exams, and I became a stylist. I got my license as a hairdresser, I loved it, and I moved into Washington. Aidan: Ah I see, ok so that was your first work experience here [in the United States]. Mary: Yes. Aidan: Okay, good, um, yeah, so one of the questions is what motivated or caused your move to the US, but I guess that we already covered that. Mary: Yes, it was my parents. Aidan: Yeah, okay. Mary: Yeah, it was the family. Aidan: But, um, I am curious about what you thought about it at the time, were you happy in Montreal? Or were you excited to move? Mary: I was very happy in Montreal, and it was a very horrible time moving here. Aidan: Okay. Mary: We had a very hard time adjusting, um, it was very alienating, it was very, very white, and even though we’re white Mediterraneans, we did not feel part of this, you know, American, white neighborhood that we moved into. Aidan: Right. Mary: Um, it was uh, we lived in the city so everybody used public transportation, we grew up with the public transportation in Montreal, which is fantastic, and then when we moved to the burbs unless you could drive, or someone was driving you somewhere, you were completely cut off. Aidan: Right. �8 Mary: And at that time, like I said, there was no Metro, there was no easy access to anything, so it was very alienating and very difficult. Aidan: Right, I see, so, so you were not so happy here when you first started? Mary: No. Aidan: Okay. Mary: No, I hated it. Aidan: Okay, yeah, um, I, I do have one interesting question: how did you meet your first friend in America? Mary: Oh my gosh. Uh-Aidan: If you can even remember, but-Mary: I can't even remember the first. So, I met a lot of, uh, people when I took the classes, um, you know, for the, to get my diploma, because there was, we were all seniors, so I met one of the first people that I remember, I met someone that their parents, their dad worked for the CIA that was never around, so that was a wild story. And she was great, and it was true, here dad was never around, and we became friends. And I met, I met quite a few folks in, I started meeting people in the high school, and people that were more from different places, people that had traveled a lot, or, you know, were not the cheerleaders and the jocks. But it was more like, and that was something else that was shocking to me was, like, having this world, like, all separate, where the school was like, it was like what they used to call it which I thought was really weird was like the jocks the cheerleaders and then the freaks. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And so that was really wild. Because we never had that in Canada, our school didn't involve, either you were in sports or you were not, but it was not a big deal. It wasn't like a big, the Canad-- the American, the American upbringing to the high school was just kind of, it was just kind of very different. It was stuff that we saw on television. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, yeah, it was weird. Aidan: Right, right, okay, so, so it sounds like over time, at first at least it was difficult to find some sort of sense of community, did you ever really, I mean not necessarily in comparison to Greece or Montreal, which have large established communities. �9 Mary: Mm-hm. Aidan: But I guess a place like DC, which, um, which, um, according to the research that I did does not have a very large Greek population, [Greek] immigrant population. Mary: No. Aidan: Um, did you ever find any sort of community, or is it never really-Mary: Yes, I did, actually, I found a great community, uh, in music, um, I found a lot of friends, and it was um, very, very embracing, was the arts, the arts community, the musicians, the poets, um, the college students that were, um, politically motivated were the people that I was interested in, those kind of, those kind of folks. And there was a huge group back then, it wasn't, Washington isn't like it was now. It was pretty much offices, and then, either you worked in an office or you didn't, or you went to school, and then by like 5 o'clock in the afternoon they would roll up, literally, the sidewalks because the offices would close and it would be a dead town. There was nobody there. So, um, we didn't have, there was a lot of crime in Washington then, and it was also, um, a lot cheaper to live in DC than it is now, so there was a very, there was a lot of young people that lived in Washington, and I made a lot of friends, and roommates, through, you know, group houses and apartments and sort of-- And then it was also very cheap for the artsy communities, like um, the people that were in bands, and the people that were poets, and the people, uh, that wanted to show their art, there was a lot of really bad neighborhoods in Washington, with, with like, really not great buildings, so it was easy for all of us to see shows, and see events at places like that, it wasn't hard for people to play, like it is now. Like right now if you're not popular, or famous, uh, you can't get anything, a gig in a club. Aidan: Yeah, yeah. Mary: It's very limited, to where then, it was very open, and there was a lot of people that came from other places and other colleges, and other cities, like a lot of people would come down from Philadelphia, people would come from North Carolina, and there was a lot of stuff going on in Washington and it was a very embracing community. Aidan: Right, right. Mary: So, that's where I ended up getting very connected, and that's how I ended up staying here for a very long time. Aidan: Mm-hm, right. Mary: And I met my husband here, so we ended up making our home here. Aidan: Right. Mary: And, you know, family and that sort. �10 Aidan: So, I know that, um, I know that there is a large Greek orthodox community in general, like it, I think, um-Mary: Yes, there is. Aidan: Like many communities, especially diasporic communities, kind of connect a lot of the time through religion. Mary: Yes, they do. Aidan: This is, this is one of the questions my class was concerned with, is, um, um, sorry if it's a little bit abrupt-Mary: That's okay. Aidan: But just while we were on the topic of finding community, or finding fellow Greek immigrants, um, have you ever been involved with religion? Or has that ever played a part in your life, cause, because I know it can be very important in at least-Mary: Yes, in the Greek community, yes, yes, we’re, uh, most of the Greeks are Greek orthodox, they are very serious about their religion, they, uh, a lot of them connect through the church, uh, and the church of course, you know, you have to become a member, and that sort of thing. That was more my parents, uh, I would go to church periodically. The biggest holiday is Easter, it's bigger than Christmas, and so, the only time that I would really go to church was when my mom wanted me to go with her for the resurrection, uh, service, in, on Easter. And, uh, when I was little in Greece, we had a little village church of course and we went there on Sundays with our grandparents, but it was different, they were the ones that were very connected, I'm not very religious con-- very religiously connected so I’ve never, um, belonged to the church. Aidan: Mm-hm, okay, okay good, get that out of the way. Mary: Yes, but you have to be a member. Aidan: Right. Mary: It's like, you, I mean you can go to church on a Sunday, but to be involved in all their activities and all sort of, of that sort of thing is like you have to be a member of the church. Aidan: Okay, I see, I see. Um, so kind of back to just, like, the topic of like, kind of, as you, when you got here, were there any things you did that helped you sort of, um, grow your community? Grow like sort of grow into being in America, and did that affect the identity that you held important before, or like did that sort of, um, influence your beliefs, or values, or what you thought about yourself? �11 Mary: I feel, I feel like there was a big part of me that grew up here. So, I feel like a third, like, I'm a third Greek, I'm a third, um, part, you know, Canadian, and the other part is American. They had all, all those countries had a lot of influence in my life, and by the way I am today. Um, I, I didn’t, I was looking more, I didn't, wasn't really looking for Greek communities when I moved here. I was looking more for real people. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And more, not so, I don't know, broken up, you know, in groups, in like, you know, the Virginia, the whites and this and whatever. So no, I didn't really look for a Greek community. I knew that the Greek community here was many generations. A lot of them were not like the Greek community that was in Canada where they, where the families had just migrated, you know, they were the first generation, their parents, and the children was the second. So, here, most of the Greeks that I did meet, they didn't speak the language, they were very far removed from Greece, I mean, they would go there for holidays but that was pretty much it, so, it wasn't the same, but I have a big, huge family, so that part kept me much more connected. Aidan: Mm-hm, Okay right. Mary: Than the church would. Aidan: Than the church per-se? Okay. Mary: Yes. Aidan: I see. And um, could you just tell me about some of the things that you did, um, when you were, I guess like younger in DC, when you, when you moved there, um, what were you up to, besides, were you doing anything besides being a stylist? Or was it stylist full time? Mary: I was working as a stylist full time because I was, uh, living on my own, and I was supporting myself. And, I got, I was very politically, I got very politically involved, and I still am, um, women’s rights. Pro-choice, pro-vote, pro freedom, pro-everything. Uh, I've always been a Democrat, a die-hard Democrat. Um, for me a lot of my connections with people have been political connections, much more than religious, or you know, or you know, background, or you know, coming from the same country. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: I started by getting really involved in, also in music, I really loved, I met my husband then. And then I met a bunch of friends, everybody was young, everybody was going to American University, there was a huge, uh, a huge music scene there, everybody was doing punk stuff, and fun stuff, and there was a lot of music coming in from California, from England, um, there was a lot of poetry, there was a lot of, there was a lot going on, so I got super involved with all that. Aidan: Mm-hm, right, okay, so-- �12 Mary: And I also loved to travel, so, I got very involved in, like, traveling, like as much as I could. Aidan: So through these, through these, um, sort of like, very politically active communities, did you sort of, I don't know, I guess, I guess, okay, let me preface this by asking the question: what was your opinion of America before you immigrated? What were, what were, what did you know about it, and how did you feel about it? Did you, did you, believe that it was a land of opportunity? Or did you believe that it was just the neighbor of Canada? Or did, you know, did you have any opinions on it? Mary: I, my opinion was, uh, because I hadn't been here before, only a visit to see family for, for a wedding when I was young, in New York, um, my, my thoughts about America was mostly what television showed us, certain TV shows, and how things are here, and sort of like, you know, television played a lot, movies played a lot, so, you know, sort of like, Happy Days, and uh, stuff like that, um, when I, um, I was not excited to move here because I loved living in Canada, and I was leaving behind my life and my friends, and that was devastating, um. I didn't really, I didn't like American when I first moved here. The violence really scared me. Um, the health care was terrifying, because the funny thing was when we first moved here, you know, we have social medicine in Canada, so when we first moved here, I remember, it was my brother, I think, got bronchitis in the winter, and my mom took him to the clinic, and when she walked out of the clinic they gave her a bill for like 400 dollars which totally freaked her out, because um you realize right there and then, that it's completely different. That when you’re sick you just can't go into the clinic and get medicine, you have to have money, and you have to have, uh, insurance. And that was like, really a hard awakening to see how expensive and how difficult health care is in America. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, I fell in love with America very slowly. And I still think if I had not lived here for as long as I have, and have family and friends that are American, that I probably would not like this country very much. It’s very racist, and the racism is deep, and scary, and it's always, I've always seen it since I moved here in 1980 to today. Um, it's, um, it’s not fair in so many ways. And it’s, uh, and right now the way it's changed, it's frightening, it's frightening. So, it's a place that I love, but I'm really scared of it at the same time. Aidan: I see. So, so you are, um, so, your opinion of America, I guess, like, you were never surprised by- because I think there's a common experience of people thinking America is this very free, very liberated place, and then coming to America and kind of, like you said, suffering this like rude awakening. So, are you, are you sort of saying that even before you came to America, you kind of, there was, there was no enchantment that was undone when you got here. Mary: No. Aidan: Okay, I see. Mary: No. �13 Aidan: Yeah. Mary: It was, what was frightening moving here was, how, well, also of course where we moved to, you know, Vienna, Virginia. How, how scary and, and white it was. And how, and how, there was a funny story we got when we first moved in, we got the lady, the neighbor, showed up with a basket full of fruit and cookies, it was a welcome, a neighborhood welcome wagon, and my mother invited her in, and, you know, she offered her Greek cookies, because were Greek, and she also offered her Greek coffee. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And, so, the neighbor had never had Greek coffee which is very, which is ground very fine, and it’s, um, it’s quite strong, it's got a lot of caffeine, so the, the woman said that she would love to have some, and my mother made her some coffee and she stayed and we chatted for a little bit, and then the next day she came back knocking on our door, wanting to see the package that the coffee came in because she couldn't sleep at all the night before, and she was, um, she was a little upset, and kind of, like, made us feel that we, you know, my mom felt terrible, because she was like, you know, this is just coffee, was trying to explain to her that it had a lot of caffeine, that's probably why she couldn't sleep. But it just made us, did not make us feel very welcome, her attitude. So, it was, it was difficult, it was a difficult time for us because, um, family would come and visit us, and at the time, all my uncles at the time, drove black Cadillacs, and when they showed up, uh, people were like kind of afraid, they thought like “what is up with you guys,” you know, “where are you from?” And it was strange, you know, so it was like, it was just kind of, like, it felt like if you didn't fit in, you just weren't part of that, that area, you know, if you didn't have a at that time, you know, the kids all in school had, the guys had pickup trucks, and the people, the girls had little cars, and if you didn't have a car, you know, you just didn't, it was, it was a very different time, very different time. I was never, I had never gone to a party that was in a big open farm field, where they had watermelon, you know, stuffed with moonshine, which I didn't know, and I got deathly ill. So, there was a lot of different things that I was trying to sort of see if I can fit in or acclimate with all of it, and it kind of was like, it was strange, looking at it back now, it was a little, it was strange, it was strange. Aidan: Yeah, so, speaking more about these feelings of sort of alienation, um, did you feel that it, it got better once you moved to DC? Mary: Absolutely. It was like day and night. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: I’ve met so many cool folks, and, um, it was, that's why I fell in love with this area. I met a lot of folks that felt like me, I met a lot of folks that were really interesting, and uh it wasn't like this tiny little world that was out in the suburbs. And, uh, we felt like, you know, we were, we, we marched for the, all the pro-choice marches, we, we marched for a lot, and we were very united, and people would come from all over the states and stay at our group houses, and we'd make flyers because at the time technology was very different, it wasn't really happening. So there was a very big connection, and, and opened my vision �14 to the Americ-- to the Americas, not just this particular little area where it’s like, Virginia and DC. Like, there's all the Americans that are from like, all over. Aidan: Right. Mary: And then I started traveling, you know, and [the] West Coast was gorgeous that I fell in love with, and I was gonna move out there, but at the time it was really, it was hard, so we didn’t have a lot of friends there. I fell madly in love with the West Coa-- I mean, so I'm a big city person, but I also like the country, but I saw America much more. [The interview was conducted in Mary’s kitchen, and her dog, Archer, was laying on the ground right next to us for most of the interview. Her husband, Ben, my uncle, is also on the computer in the other room, and can be heard once or twice] Mary: Sorry about my whiney doggy [in response to dog making noise]. Aidan: He's okay. Okay, so, um, yeah, one more, so, so I guess to some extent would you say that it was not that you found people who were similar; you didn't find a community of people who had similar backgrounds to you, but you found a community in people where that background was not so important. [More dog noises] Mary: Exactly. And they all had different backgrounds, so it was interesting, it was very interesting to get to know each other, but yes, absolutely. Aidan: And have you, um, so, being of an immigrant community yourself, have you, do you think the fact that you immigrated here has created any unique interactions with the pre-existing immigrant communities in DC? Mary: I don't know about that. I don't know, I have not, I don't know. I, I have found that the stories that I've heard of people immigrating to the US, a lot of them have been really, really tough. And mine was a lot lighter than most, because of my parents. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: I was really lucky that my dad came here, he hired, you know, he hired a lawyer, we got our cards. It wasn't like hardship like a lot of people have had, where they haven't seen their families for a long time, um, you know, it was, it was expensive to get all that done and at the time my dad was working, he was much younger, and it worked out really well for us. So that was a big plus. So, I’ve heard more, I’ve heard stories of people having it a lot worse than me. I mean, I basically didn't like moving here and I had to acclimate, but then the paperwork, I didn't have to suffer like others have. Aidan: Right. Mary: You know, I was lucky with my dad. �15 Aidan: Right. Um, so, what do you think it means to really be American? Like what does, what does that mean to you, I guess? Mary: Well, I'm about to put in my paperwork to get my, uh, after much thought, to put in my paperwork to become an American citizen. So for me, I want to be able to vote, that's the most important thing on the planet, and that's the part that really has always bummed me out for not being an American citizen, because I’m very vocal about how I feel, about the politics, and about who I support, and, uh, what I support. And so I feel because I've spent so much time here and it's become my home, it's time for me to become an American citizen. So, maybe I can make my voice with my vote heard a little bit more, you know. I'm also getting older, and I have no plans to move back to Canada, I pretty much have made my, my, uh, life here, so I am gonna become an American citizen. Aidan: I see. And do you, do you think that that is, how do you think you would have reacted to that information 20 years ago? Mary: I would have been “no way,” you know? I'm kinda shocked at this new older me. But at the same time, I have no regrets, and I'm always gonna be a Canadian citizen because I was born there. But also because I've worked all my life here; this is where I've paid all my taxes, this is where I have my house, and my life, and my family is around. So, I think it's time for me to do it, and not, and not be afraid of doing it, or, you know, I'm not gonna change my mind. [Mary gets up at this point to heat up food for her dog, and the microwave can be heard very slightly in the background] Aidan: Okay. Mary: Hold on one second. [She is feeding her dog] Aidan: No problem, take your time. Mary: So yes. Aidan: Yeah, so, I guess kind of circling back to the, um, the sense of Greekness in your life, um, has that, do you think that you have like-- Well, are there things that you did, that you were able to do in Canada relating to your Greek heritage that you are not able to do here? Or are there things you're able to do here that you were not able to do in Canada? In terms of just like, expression of culture, or interacting with your culture. Mary: Yes. Well, Canada has a huge community there, so, you know, for instance going to the mar-Greek markets or the Greek cafés, and, uh, they also have their own music sta-- they have their own radio stations, and TV stations. So there's none of that here. And New York has more a lot of it, but here, no. So, I do miss that, I miss the cuisine, the food is fantastic. �16 Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Much better than here, um, much better than here. So, I miss that. [Pouring dog food] But, um, I do miss, I do miss with Greece, I miss the, I miss the country itself very much because it’s so beautiful there, and I miss my, my relatives are getting very old, and so it's tough. I need to go back and visit them because time is going by very quickly. Aidan: Right, um, do you think that, do you think that your sense of culture has changed at all since being in America? Your sense of like, what culture you identify most strongly with? Mary: Well, you know, it's really kind of funny because we grew up all our lives calling ourselves Greek-Canadians, so even though I'm not a Greek citizen, I’ve always identified by being Greek first, because of my heritage. And then Canadian because of where I was born. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, I always have felt that I’m always Greek first. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Because um I guess with my language and my coming, being raised with my grandparents when I was little, I definitely, I have a connection to there when I was a little girl. Aidan: Right. So, so, um, you grew up speaking, just to clarify, you grew up, Greek was your first language, right? Mary: Yes. Aidan: Okay. Okay, right, right, right. Mary: And then it was Greek and English. Aidan: Greek and English, right. Okay. Mary: And then we had to take French, but French I just sort of gave up on it. Aidan: Yeah? Mary: Because it was just more like I was angry about everything we had to do, and then when Montreal was sort of breaking up, it was just forced so much on us, and there was just, it just made me react in a negative way, not really embracing it, which was really dumb. Aidan: Interesting, well do you think that, um, in a similar way to the way the French language was kind of forced on the English-speaking citizens of Qu—Quebec-- �17 Mary: Absolutely! Aidan: Is that simil-- but is that similar, is that similar at all to the way you think, like, to the way, I guess like, like you said the alienation, like the pressure to conform to like the jocks and cheerleaders society. Were there, did you feel any, like, similarities between the pressure to conform to American society, and the pressure to conform to the French language the [Quebecois] French society? Mary: The French side? Yes, yes, it was very difficult, Quebec, yes. It became very, very difficult. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Because if you weren’t fluent in French, you couldn't get a job, you couldn't do anything. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, it was starting to limit everything, there was like no freedom. To where, that's why everybody left, because parents did not have choices. Before, they had a choice whether to send their kid to an allEnglish school or an all-French school. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: But once it changed, you didn't have that choice, you had to go to an all-French school. Aidan: Right. Mary: And it was French Canadian. Aidan: Right, right, right. Mary: So, it was, it was tough, yes, it was really tough to be able to like, juggle all of it. Aidan: I see, but was that, is that, um, is that reminiscent of what you experienced when you came to America as well? Of just kind of like, kind of-Mary: Yes! Aidan: [that] it's easier to-Mary: Looking at it now, you know, you’re asking me that, yes. I totally, I totally felt like, yeah, there was another group you needed to be accepted by. Aidan: Mm-hm. �18 Mary: You know? And not feel like, not be asked all the time “where are you from.” And so, uh-Aidan: So, so when people ask you where you're from-- [slight interruption] Mary: [Gesturing to be quiet] Aidan: [Speaking to someone else] Don't worry, it's okay. [Speaking to Mary] Um, So, yeah, just like these little things like, um, you know, like, um, small, I guess did you experience any feeling of rejection when you came to America? Just like, like, you kind of talked about small things like the coffee, um, the neighbor coming over for coffee and being like “this is weird coffee what did you give me,” kind of like, not being very respectful, and even being a little skeptical. Mary: Yes. Aidan: In a way that you were made to feel bad even though what they did is, you know? Mary: Yes, they made us feel that we were like, weird, that we were like, weird foreigners. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And not trusting, even though my mother was very welcoming. And you know, when she asked to see the package, we actually, my sister and I, sort of made fun of my mom at the time, and we were like “you know, don't, you know, don't, this is a whole different world Mama,” you know? Aidan: Yeah. Mary: It was like, you know, “don’t make your Greek coffee,” and she was like, totally shocked. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: Because, you know, it was, it was true! It was like this woman did not know and she thought that my mom, I don't know, had put something in the coffee. Aidan: Had poisoned her? Mary: Interpreted it in a totally different way. You know? Aidan: Yeah. Mary: So that was a little hard. That was a little hard. Aidan: Did you find a lot of those misinterpretations, or like, things, like you, I guess, previously at home, things you considered to be culturally significant to you, expressing them was more difficult in America? �19 Mary: Yes, well, yes because everybody where I, where, where we migrated to was [from] a very, very white area. And, um, they were very prejudiced. Like I said, if you weren't American, and you didn't have, and I didn’t have straight hair, I had curly hair, and I didn’t have a button nose and you know, whatever. So, we were considered, you know, foreigners. And so that was really strange because I wasn't, because I never knew that I was, in Canada, I never felt like that. Because everyone had different backgrounds like all my friends that I had in school, so their parents were from, like, different parts of Europe. And they were all like me, you know, they had like spoke English, they, you know, we were the first generations, so there wasn't like, “where are you from,” it was more like, “hey,” you know, “my mother makes this kind of food and we make this kind of food why don't you come over and taste it?” You know, kind of thing. Aidan: Um, could you maybe talk about a few, if you have any just examples of things that you thought were culturally significant to you, that were kind of like you felt like you had to suppress as a result of being in America? If you can think of anything, if you can't, it's no problem. Mary: If I can think of anything? No, not really. Aidan: I think the coffee is a good example. Mary: Well, the coffee, well you mean the neighbor, yes, that was weird, that was back then, yes, um, and them thinking that we were also in the Mafia was also, you know, because of the cars. Aidan: Yeah, yeah. Mary: That was also a bit weird, um. You know? I didn't, um, after high school I didn't spend any really much time there, so it was like I didn't want that part of the world, you know, so, I didn't, I didn’t engage in it, you know, that's why I fell in love with moving to DC and meeting all these different people, and so, yeah, I was like, I didn't look, I haven't looked back. And I’m glad I still, I live in Takoma Park now. But yeah, no. That's pretty much all I can remember. Aidan: Okay, okay, I see. Are there a lot of things you miss from Canada? Besides like, um, I guess besides like, more, uh, systemic things like governmental systems, uh, are there things like? Mary: Oh, I miss the food. Montreal has fantastic food, and, um, it’s like I said, multiethnic, so whatever neighborhood you go to, it's amazing food. You know, the Portuguese neighborhood has the most fantastic Portuguese food, the Greeks do, the Italians, it's like, very multi. And they really take, I mean, the food there is phenomenal, so I miss the food. I don't miss the winter. And I miss, um, I miss my family there, and it's a, it's a fun city, it's a really fun city, so, when I go visit, like, I knew from a long time ago I couldn't really move back to Montreal, because I would have to like really dive into French, and really change a lot where I was just sort of like, I wasn't ready to move back into the cold weather either. I mean if it was Vancouver? Maybe it would have been a different story. [laughs] But Montreal, I realized a long time ago that even though I love the city, I just couldn't move back there and work, it was just the winters are too brutal, [I] couldn't deal with it, the winter. �20 Aidan: I see, so it kind of kept you away? Mary: Mm-hm. Aidan: I see. Yeah-Mary: The winters and having to be fluent in French. Aidan: Right, okay. I see, um, okay, I have another interesting question about uh Montreal, so, um, it sounds like, yeah, a very multiethnic city, very multicultural city, with a lot of different, uh, groups. A lot of different groups of first-generation immigrants, of countries that might have their respective turmoils with each other in Europe. Um, did that extend to the immigrant communities in your experience? Or was it kind of like they came together, they, they maintained a degree of separation and a degree of uniqueness due to their heritage, and, and being in touch with this heritage, but also kind of were, um, joined under being Canadian at the same time? Mary: I, I did not, I did not notice prejudices. I think, um my family didn't have any, I mean, we didn't, I mean, we grew up in an Italian neighborhood, loved all the neighbors, loved our Italian stores I remember. We knew each and everybody knew us kids, we could go in and out. Um, no, I don't remember, I don't remember the, any prejudices there. I don't remember that there, there wasn't, I didn’t notice any of that. What I noticed was the racist, the racists here. The racist comments-Aidan: Yeah. Mary: The, and not just about me, but people of color. Um, it was very uncom-- it is very uncomfortable still, and it was just, I noticed that a lot here in the States. Because also, our black communities in Montreal, they're all, uh, they are African communities, French African speaking communities. Because it is Quebec, they bring a lot of immigrants in from the French-speaking part of Africa. So, coming here was a different cultures, whole different cultures of the African communities in Montreal, to the African Americans in the US, very different people. Aidan: Right. Mary: So, and very different history of course. And so, yeah, that was a bit different, that was very different um. But I think, I think also because of, like, all I can remember is because of television uh, the US is portrayed as like, this glamorous, you know, more then than I think it is now, you know? And I know, well, the other thing is, people that are starving and people that don't have anything, when they see how much we waste here, I mean, it all, even if you look at like how much we wasted in the beginning of the [COVID-19] vaccines, because some of the people were not the right age or maybe they were a few years off, or maybe they weren't actively on chemo, or whatever, they got refused the vaccine and the vaccines got thrown out, we wasted so many vaccines to where other countries, they didn't even get a chance! They didn't even have enough vaccines for their medical people! And so, when you look at how much, the gluttonous that we have here, it's a little rough. �21 Aidan: Yeah. Mary: Like I remember when one of my cousins said, when they came for the first time to the US to visit, and I said, well, “how, what was your experience like?” Because they, they were in New York, and they said, “what I noticed is that the homeless people in the US have really expensive sneakers,” to where on, to where the homeless people that we have in Europe, they have no shoes on their feet at all. So, there's just like, stuff that you notice that, you know, we have and then we don't have. You know? Like how can we have so many young children today that are not getting any meals? They are not getting any, they are not getting any nutrition? How can we-- and then we’re wasting a lot of food at the same time. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: So, it's kind of it, its, that stuff is scary, and, and makes me unhappy. And I hope that more future generations can do better things than we have. Aidan: Do you think that that culture, I guess like, overconsumption, consumer culture, do you think that is like a uniquely American phenomenon? Or do you-Mary: Yes. Aidan: Or do you think that it's just like, especially-Mary: No, I think of it as an American, uniquely American phenomenon, where we feel like, you know, we've got to, we can have this and we can have more, we need more, and we aren't really nice to each other. We don't really, you know, I, I find it, yes, I find it very greedy sometimes, and very, not very caring. Yeah, overabundance. Aidan: Okay, yeah, and, and as someone who was educated outside of the US, did you find that, um, from since you got here to even now, do you think there is an um, do you think that there is a uniquely American mindset that is taught? Do you think that there is like, that there are people who are kind of like, willing to defend things like overconsumption because it’s, like, “the American way” quote, unquote. Have you met a lot of these people? Mary: Mmm no, but I see, I mean, I see what's going on. The people that I know, they are not like that, but that's a very small, closed circle of friends of mine. But the overconsumption in this country is ridiculous. And we are, we are terrible! I mean, yes, we are a big factor of destroying the planet. So, we have a lot going on, we have a lot that we need to work on, but I also find that as a country there is always the other side, there is always a side that listens, that cares… that is trying to do something. For as much as right now, the ugly side has such a loud voice that it tries to like, drown everything out, to where it makes everybody feel sad and broken. To where there is a whole other side, I feel like, of people that are caring, and that are trying to do the best that they can. �22 Aidan: Mm-hm, yeah. So, I guess like, so we have about ten minutes left, and just to kind of close out, um, I want to ask a kind of broad question. Is there anything that you, I guess like, not have come to appreciate, well, we can talk about things, I guess we can start by: is there anything that like, because you said that when you first got here you did not like it very much, that you kind of grown to love it over time? Are there any things in particular that you have grown to appreciate over time about America, or have grown to, I guess, like is there anything that has grown on you in a way that you didn't expect? Mary: Um, what’s grown on me that I didn't expect was the understanding and love that I have for the people in the country. Because I've lived here. Because watching it, watching, watching America on the news in another country, like Canada, which is where I would have been if we hadn't moved here, uh, it's very, it is very scary. And so, I think what’s changed for me is that, I do kind of understand how it runs, that's why I said, you know, I see that the racist ticket in America is very deep, it didn't just start yesterday. I feel like there is a lot of work that needs to be done, but at the same time, I feel like we can move on, we can show the world, because everyone is counting on us, on this country, to show the light, and then democracy, I think we can do it if we fight hard enough for it. Aidan: Mm-hm, yeah, so, so to get a little more specific, I guess, are there any things, like, about America, so, so that's, okay, so like talking about political activism-Mary: America. Well, yeah. I would, I would want it, I would want to figure out something to do with healthcare. I mean, the saddest part of this country, and right now for me too because I'm working for my insurance, is like, how much we all pay, and how much we’re slaves to the insurance companies. Aidan: Mm-hm. Mary: And how much, the very scary part of this country, besides all the gun violence, which is completely insane, is the fact that we don’t show a lot of appreciation about our people here, we don't take care of them. You know, health care is horrible, they are constantly trying to scare people, cutting Medicare, people that can't afford to get health care. We've lost friends because it was too late by the time they got health care because they were ill. And so, to me, it's, uh, that's the part that's like very, you know, when I think about Canada versus here, I think about health care. I think to where like everybody should have access to health care. And then if you want to pay for more, then that's an individual right, just like they have in Canada. If you want to pay privately you can pay out of pocket, but that doesn't mean you've got to sit around and be sick forever, and by the time you get screened, there's not, you've got some, you know, terrible disease, and there's nothing you can do because you didn't have insurance for years. And that's a very sad story in this country, and that's what breaks my heart, and that's what I hope really changes also, it's very big for me is the health care here. Aidan: Right, so, to sort of conclude, um, are there any things, I guess that you find that you prefer from living in America? Mary: Umm. [laughter] Aidan: It can be really, it can be really anything, it can be like cultural, or it can be anything. �23 Mary: Well, what I love about living here right now, is that I’m really happy that I didn't have a heavy winter. I mean I got to tell you guys, if you haven’t lived in Canada, Montreal, uh, 37 below the wind chill factor to 40, it is nasty. And so, I love the weather here, I love the seasons, well, it's getting a little funky, but I do love the fact that it was not a heavy winter. I do feel bad about the microclimate stuff. Um, I've gotten, I'm very close to my immediate family and I love having them around, so that's a huge factor, over the years how we've all been close, it would be hard for me to move away. There’s a lot of great stuff about America, there is, you know, we have the right to speak our mind, freedom of speech, you know? We have a lot of freedom, and we need to use it, and, um, and I think I love this country enough to fight for it. And that's why I want to become an American citizen, I want to be able to vote. That's a huge, huge factor for me because I think it's the best way my voice can be heard. Aidan: Yeah. Let’s just see. Okay, um, I guess we're about at the hour mark, um, I've asked pretty much all the questions I wanted to cover. My final question is: do you have any questions for me, or anything you'd like to add? Or anything you’d like to discuss before we finish? Mary: Um, the um, uh, well-- is, because you’re very aware of what's going on [dog barking] with migration, I'm just curious to find out what you're finding out, like, what is happening with immigration in the United States? And, and with uh, you know, people, how, how difficult it is for people to get in to become citizens or residents of this country? Aidan: Well yeah, of course it's getting more difficult all the time. Mary: Mm-hm. Aidan: Depends on, I mean, yeah, It kind of depends on, um I guess who’s in office. Mary: Right. Aidan: But clearly, um, I mean, immigration, immigrants are becoming more and more a topic of conversation in America I think, um, I mean America is a nation of immigrants, at the end of the day. And I think that a lot of people do not necessarily respect that fact. Mary: Yes. Aidan: Yeah. Um, but yeah, is there anything else you’d like to add? Or anything you’d like to, to say? To tell me? Mary: Um, no! I thought that uh your questions, it brought back a lot of memories, um, I sort of feel, I sort of felt at first that, that I just, you know, that maybe you need to talk to someone that was like, had a rough time coming into the country, but I think there's just so many different stories. Aidan: Yeah! �24 Mary: I think that everyone has a different story, and everyone that comes here, uh, wants to have an opportunity to be accepted, and be able to get a job, and show how much, what they can do. That's, the immigrants that I've spoken to, they're all about making a better life, better education for their families, for their children, and, um, and trying to make sure that the crazy MAGA doesn't get into office again, because that would be terrifying. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: And so, I'm hoping that the American people can show that democracy still stands strong. That's one of my biggest, um, hopes and prayers for right now. Aidan: Yeah. Mary: That's about it. Aidan: Okay, perfect! Alright, uh, I think I'm supposed to say something at the end, but I can't remember. Uh no, I think that's everything. Thank you so much! Mary: My pleasure. Aidan: Alright, I'll end it now. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aidan Lambiotte Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Tsiolas Location The location of the interview Takoma Park, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Tsiolas Description An account of the resource This interview is between Aidan Lambiotte and his aunt, Mary Tsiolis, a Greek Canadian immigrant to the United States. As the daughter of Greek immigrants to Quebec, Mary depicts her early childhood, and experiences growing up in both Greece and Monrtréal during the 1960s - 1970s. She draws stark contrasts between her experiences in Canada and her initial time as an immigrant in America, touching heavily on the themes of isolation, microaggression, and white suburban hegemony in the United States. She ultimately uses her experiences to illustrate the manner in which she found community in the DC area, entirely outside of Greek or Canadian culture, as well as her love-hate relationship with American identity. This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Aidan Lambiotte Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 6th, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Canada community Greece health care music politics https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/771ebe932f09443849860b1585cd4761.png?Expires=1787184000&Signature=JSQp3a5R5B9c9O8G%7EErEsMlnyXhANT-9WOqmA%7EkSxdfl5EoxAzoe9J3E2TR%7E9DbuYktB%7EVPVGKhUUZFEUKM267awT4-Gqi87NPSba9SPa7o0RoPuHQPzfagDGR0kpGxQRCvuDGPX4eAV82nE%7EJbxCxaaxspAE-44CTR-P1yXrOqjK92XKGn5inFx2Gx%7ESTI-CK-0cykeFHjCwSraTx%7En4yZ9-yuhiWq2Hp0zpafTqGITY1zGR-fWhhLzVLybTiBzr%7EeqbkDQi8DCZwj%7ESzqxJD3R5L59bcATI7Ery1YGoNfOsToq30W4xaqdWjxOoZlRcX-8VF%7Em4DvhHi2t9FxrQw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sheisa Naderi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mehrdad Naderi Location The location of the interview Brookeville, MD Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mehrdad Naderi Description An account of the resource This interview of Mehrdad Naderi, conducted by Sheisa Naderi, outlines Mehrdad’s experiences as an Iranian immigrant to the United States. Hoping to further pursue his education, Mehrdad immigrated to the DMV area in 1979, right around the time of the Iranian Revolution and the Hostage Crisis. He explains how the timing of his immigration impacted his ability to settle into America. Through his interview, he also recounts his experience as a foreign student in the United States and the many different struggles that came along with it, specifically the financial ones. He explains the many different jobs and responsibilities he had to take on just to make it in this country, when so many others couldn’t. He asserts the importance of hard work and dedication and just how far they can get you, using himself as an example. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sheisa Naderi Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 13th, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Farsi Hostage Crisis Iran revolution student https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/0d35d49fda04169d03882026be9edb67.png?Expires=1787184000&Signature=jCZQDsTt9ScU5Glc0x389dS-9PSud9izOd5XnzV88q5IBPhLtoA%7E9NPm9L-0f5EDZbaJXR0B2uF--1mM1IQ5xYYfoNTFeNnapPr7ZjA98kLKCHm8aCAC%7Ebgwc-ZijKZgUZknL-HWoTJqFGZIvYvrflHFA-DYd417zFkRUkfsSXN7UUeSDsLLZGRyVNf%7ENN9PMh7Bj%7Ew93CQLGx4gbB5q4dWvylYRfS8MJ9i1CjSB0XW1qxPip8Whm78qyIbTqNNpg7MX5z%7EEl5XoA1fxsCQDc-s9Ui%7EXSuJTa4-mein9EHmMJg2i8eGObSmfJHOIW5voDx02kLmy6zd%7EHQPoQSKnPg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jade Shaw Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Suet Vu Location The location of the interview Rockville, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Suet Vu Description An account of the resource In this interview, Jade Shaw interviews Suet Vu and her experience as a young immigrant from Hong Kong to America. Suet Vu immigrated when she was 11 years old to Potomac, Maryland, and battled middle school as a non-English speaking immigrant with no friends or help. In time she was able to immerse herself and form an American identity, but later as an adult, she had to face the Anti-Asian semitism that came with COVID-19, which made her feel out of place. In this interview, we break down even more details about her life such as her childhood in Hong Kong, her family and children, her jobs in America, long-distance friendships that originated in Hong Kong, and most importantly, how happy she is to have been through it all. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jade Shaw Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 12, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History city English family Hong Kong school https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/16159/archive/files/0cfa2887546623bd8a4ba04c43939dd9.png?Expires=1787184000&Signature=KaCB-rTefjpnMGQ9v0ZTyXt4UJEE4lWF4GVgPaBPygrOeQ5PX-VLuVAhH7B3btxToSEnaH4J0LtukHof0%7EMyRBwUTRnYaNhtqeoPcylH077WLOocSRo3h2zGBaOdRcmIrLpTUaVNYxQj80nyWWb2wyRTP8%7Et786rA%7EtYQF6FW5jovkWkGMXu1OWnvvjZryPTcjEeBIvJb5glTVi7M8QseTj4S3UDrfl%7EyJoSAscw1ZTxD4q466cXAQW0vlMNP8H-Oe8fl5fMFQkEqaV9bR2p7JxhLFN6YFDv73DR9DJ0VulA6kY97GRJIgQsdwOlvTKTJslLNXY7-e-djTRSepAfjg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7c1eeaf73a7efd1528441acae023166e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spring 2023 Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Constance Faith Tabora Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Iman (Pseudonym) Location The location of the interview Gaithersburg, Maryland Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Iman (Pseudonym) Description An account of the resource Iman was born in Shiraz, Iran in 1969. His early life was riddled with tremendous loss and tragedy going through the Iran revolution and Iran and Iraq war. By the time Iman was 21 he had lost both his parents and served in a brutal war. Iman was set to make most of his life after the war being a big partier in his 20s. Questions about his early life came back once the dust settled later in life. In his 30s he met his wife and immigrated to the United States to find a career as a chef and become a father of two. Iman’s life is an example of the complexity of the human condition from tragedy, restlessness, resilience then to the ambiguity of healing. ***This interview is restricted to the University of Maryland College Park's campus. For more information, contact the Center for Global Migration Studies (globalmigration@umd.edu).*** This interview was conducted as part of an undergraduate final project for the University of Maryland, College Park course HIST 428M (Spring 2023). This course was led by Professor Anne Rush of the Department of History, College of Arts and Humanities, and was sponsored by the Center for Global Migration Studies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Constance Faith Tabora Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Center for Global Migration Studies Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 2nd, 2023 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource The full rights of this oral history interview were given by the interviewee to the University of Maryland, College Park. This interview may be quoted from, published, or broadcast in any medium that the University of Maryland, College Park shall deem appropriate. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History food Iran revolution war